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MistaTwo

SNK Gaming Division Studio 1
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
2,456
You really only get failstates if you try hard enough to get them, an average joe is going to be fine just following what the game tell him to do and it's partly designed that way since those games have mass appeal. If they were to design an rpg then yeah I would want more options in the missions but its a linear story and the missions being scripted are a way of putting more spectacle and story beats, you normally don't get that in your run of the mill open world game with camps to clear as "missions".

But most of the missions honestly play out that same way. There were a few spots where the structure was more interesting (Guarma and the prison break to name a few) but I feel like the majority are not that different.

Ride into town.
Shootout until everyone is dead.
Chase sequence out of town.

I still would have enjoyed it more if the controls were better. They were so unresponsive it felt like you needed the lock-on and deadeye crutches to do anything.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
But most of the missions honestly play out that same way. There were a few spots where the structure was more interesting (Guarma and the prison break to name a few) but I feel like the majority are not that different.

Ride into town.
Shootout until everyone is dead.
Chase sequence out of town.

I still would have enjoyed

You can say that about all AAA action games this gen.
 

Ωλ7XL9

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,250
Rdr2 is a fantastic game that I didn't enjoy at all. It's really well made and I think it does what it was trying to do really well.

Unfortunately, I really didn't have fun with the gameplay so I didn't like it. Which is fine, not every game needs to be for everyone and I can tell it's a good game, just not for me.

That's a good way to put it. It's definitely not a game for everyone, but boy when you find it fun, it sure as hell is fun. Still 2 chapters away from finishing this massive campaign. Rockstar truly are the stars at making open world games!
 

MistaTwo

SNK Gaming Division Studio 1
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
2,456
You can say that about all AAA action games this gen.

That's exactly my point. They are saying that RDR2 somehow has elevated mission structure over others, but I don't see it personally. Most missions didn't feel too different from the gameplay loop you would see in another AAA open world game.
 

jem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,757
Yeah exactly why can't every game just be like Call of Duty with a stupid fast pace regardless of setting and what is happening in said game like

get ready for the folk who can't back up their own arguments to link this article instead of having their own points, just like Dark Souls 2 when people link that dumb Matthewmathosis video
COD has the exact same design problems with its mission design as RDR2 does. Although I'd argue RDR2 is worse.

You have so little player agency during RDR2's missions that it feels less like you're controlling Arthur and more like you're controlling an actor playing as Arthur in a movie with a director who is really fucking picky in setting up his shots.

One of the other actors shouts at you to get in cover behind a rock so you do so. Then the director (the game) is like "fuck no, wrong rock. Your position is meant to be 2.3 metres to the right, marked by that yellow blob on your map".

"But this rock provides better cover", you protest, "and i can flank around to the side".

"Nope, no flanking allowed, you do exactly as I say".


That's the mission design in a nutshell. Rockstar is terrified of the player doing anything other than what they planned. So they impose tons of limitations to prevent any sort of player agency. You are going to experience exactly what Rockstar want, down to every piece of cover, regardless of if you want to or not.
 

Deleted member 34239

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 24, 2017
1,154
The people who describe RDR2 as slow, deliberate, and realistic remind me of those who describe Killzone 2's input lag as weighty and realistic. Coincidentally, RDR2 also has terrible input lag. I mean, even the Housers know their game isn't fun to play. It's highlighted in Schrier's article. Despite all of this, some on here are arguing that we're "objectively" wrong despite not knowing what the word means.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
39,148
The people who describe RDR2 as slow, deliberate, and realistic remind me of those who describe Killzone 2's input lag as weighty and realistic. Coincidentally, RDR2 also has terrible input lag. I mean, even the Housers know their game isn't fun to play. It's highlighted in Schrier's article. Despite all of this, some on here are arguing that we're objectively wrong despite not knowing the meaning of the word objective.
Man what I would do for a Killzone 2 remaster with no input lag...

It was fun as hell with it so imagine it having no input lag.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
That's exactly my point. They are saying that RDR2 somehow has elevated mission structure over others, but I don't see it personally. Most missions didn't feel too different from the gameplay loop you would see in another AAA open world game.

Yes RDR2 does not reinvent the wheel in mission structure, it just adds more variety, scale and depth, like something from a modern naughty dog game.

But the detail of the world just enhanced the experience and made it feel fresh.
 

MillionIII

Banned
Sep 11, 2018
6,816
I'll have to disagree, I ran into plenty of failstates even when I tried to follow the instructions the game gave me, just because I didn't do precisely what they wanted me to do, at the exact moment they wanted. Every time all they managed to do is frustrate me, drag me out of the experience and expose the rigidity of the mission design philosophy. It's not about breadth of options per se, I just don't think having the game instruct me how to do every little thing through the vast majority of the missions and having to follow those instructions exactly is interesting gameplay.

And regarding the bolded: like I said, I get the reasoning behind it. You're not telling me anything I don't know. I just don't agree that it's a good approach. Again, there's a range of options between the RDR2's rigidity and serving open-world camp liberation tasks as missions.
And on my end I didn't run into failstates since I did what the game wanted and enjoyed it that way, maybe you and I just play games differently. If you think that there is a way to make mission more interesting then I would love to hear your suggestions, if they are too rigid give some examples of how they should make it better in the next game, would also be great if you could point out a mission that was frustrating to you.
But most of the missions honestly play out that same way. There were a few spots where the structure was more interesting (Guarma and the prison break to name a few) but I feel like the majority are not that different.

Ride into town.
Shootout until everyone is dead.
Chase sequence out of town.

I still would have enjoyed it more if the controls were better. They were so unresponsive it felt like you needed the lock-on and deadeye crutches to do anything.
Even if the majority of the game is about shootouts it's always a unique fight that can go in some unexpected ways, this and this are both what you describe but they are not as boring as you make them out to be, no two missions are alike.
 

Bioshocker

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,201
Sweden
My problem with RDR2 isn't so much that I can't explore what I want (I don't have the time anyway) but rather that most of the ordinary actions are so boring and complicated. "Compare this with how easy it is to shoot strangers you don't mean to in the early part of the game, and you'll see the crisis of contradiction immediately" had me laughing. I've shot people by mistake several times, and it's infuriating. And all the horse riding... RDR 2 is so impressive in many ways. I love the story, the setting, and the characters but man, the gameplay kills me. I want to finish the story but I'm beginning to think I never will.
 

BrickArts295

GOTY Tracking Thread Master
Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,770
I loved the game but it was surreal how linear strict it was most of the time (Basically last gen ND's game design in a R* open world, which is ironic because even ND is slowly trying to change their design to be more open as seen in U4/LL). Probably has to do with the fact that I played a lot of the PS2 R* games before RDR2 but still, it feels like they are going backwards with the open world game design. But hey 20+ million sales and a 97 on Metacritic, that pretty much tells me that is not really an issue with most people and honestly it didnt bother me at all it just stuck out.
 
Oct 31, 2017
152
I finished the game and actually enjoyed going through it, but I'm never going back ever again. Not to replay, not to do optional stuff.

It was just too exhausting of a journey.
Exactly this. I loved the story, and kept it for a couple months before trading in - after eventually deciding that I couldn't bring myself to go back to it. It was truly brilliant, but as a contained experience in my eyes.
 

Raxus

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,510
Most disappointing game this gen. Made past the opening chapters and all the poor gameplay elements kept stacking up. Playing dmc5 shortly afterwards definitely didnt help matters.
 

ara

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,017
And on my end I didn't run into failstates since I did what the game wanted and enjoyed it that way, maybe you and I just play games differently. If you think that there is a way to make mission more interesting then I would love to hear your suggestions, if they are too rigid give some examples of how they should make it better in the next game, would also be great if you could point out a mission that was frustrating to you.

Even if the majority of the game is about shootouts it's always a unique fight that can go in some unexpected ways, this and this are both what you describe but they are not as boring as you make them out to be, no two missions are alike.

Yes, it's obvious you like the way the missions are designed, and I'm not trying to change your mind so I'm not going to waste my time meticulously going through the game again in one form or the other to give you specific examples of rigid structures or inane instructions you'll have to follow exactly so as not to run into stupid failstates or ways to make it better, since what would that achieve other than make me spend hours on something I barely care about enough to keep going on about even now, after two fairly low effort forum posts? You'll just go "well, I liked it" which is perfectly fine - I'm not here to debate, I'm just conversating. As you say, we probably play games differently and the way RDR2 wants you to play is not a way I think is interesting, fun or engaging.

In short, I disagree with the mission design philosophy on such a fundamental level that rattling off a bunch of moments I hated and telling you how I would've "fixed" them seems like a waste of time.

I could not disagree more with your reply to MistaTwo, though. Ironically, the clips you posted could have been lifted straight from my gameplay since they played out exactly the same on my PS4. Which is the entire point, really.
 

LetalisAmare

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,957
Probably one of the most disappointing games I've ever played. Fantastic story, characters and world but piss poor controls and mission design that just made everything feel like an absolute chore. I'll never play it again.
 

N.47H.4N

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,096
Why? They can just say it this way. Just putting a spoiler will hint there is a twist coming.
Because now looks like the journalist didn't paid attention.Not if you spoiler tag the entire paragraph,and come on,a 60h campaign and not expecting a twist?And for who played the first game this was clearly and expect since the reveal.The most predicted twist and ending of all time for me,but well executed.
 

Kinthey

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,328
The targeting system uses the left trigger, but the game uses the same mechanism for targeting someone to talk to them as it does to shoot them. The only difference is whether your gun is equipped beforehand. It would seem "simple" in this regard — you have to get your gun out if you want to shoot someone — but it's such an awkward mechanic to get used to at first, especially in the many out-of-town interactions where you don't know if you're going to be doing one or the other. And that's especially true in the heat of the moment.

I know what you're thinking: "It should not be as easy to kill someone as it is to talk to them," but lo and behold, it is, just like the "forest/olive green" example. And actually, in this case, it's as if the acid and the eyewash come from the same fountain; you just have to flip a switch first.

This seems like a really silly complain. Lots of games use the left trigger to zoom in on objects or lock on.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
Because now looks like the journalist didn't paid attention.Not if you spoiler tag the entire paragraph,and come on,a 60h campaign and not expecting a twist?And for who played the first game this was clearly and expect since the reveal.The most predicted twist and ending of all time for me,but well executed.
A huge black box in an article? It would look stupid for anybody reading the article. They wanted to showcase a point instead of hiding it behind a black box.

Also what you say is true, the twist was expected before release by some but that's why they did the best thing they can do. If people had an unconfirmed feeling about it then spoiler tagging the character's name while building a house would only make it obvious to those who knew about Breecher's Hope. They did the best they could do without spoiling anything.
 

Lant_War

Classic Anus Game
The Fallen
Jul 14, 2018
23,580
This is the kind of criticism that should have been in all reviews back in October. Now it's too late to fix those lies, metascore has been set and millions of copies have been sold. As usual you didn't do the one job you had, professional reviewers.
Yes, no reviewer whatsoever thinked it's a good game. This game breaks this forum man.
 

Bennibop

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,646
RDR2 presentation is fantastic and probably second to none but the gameplay is hollow and the controls poor. I find it strange that a massive open world game limits the way you can tackle missions and if you leave the boundry you fail.
 

Spacejaws

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,815
Scotland
I'm in the epilogue and I think I've spent at least 50 hours on hunting alone. I've shot people by accident and my horse has tripped over rubble but overall the controls and system aren't too complicated. Hell I even play on my Vita in bed (changing the controls to alternate).

I see what is being said but I feel it's a minor blemish and I trying to think of other ways they could have handled it while keeping the same controls.

My complaints are more towards things like your guns sort of de equipping when getting on a horse, the gun cleaning system in shop you can't tell a gun is dirty without selecting it would have appreciated either a clean all or even a condition meter so you can tell the gun needs cleaned in shop and crafting not telling you how much of an item you have crafted like ammunition.
Also challenges tooltips being more in depth. 43 herb challenge says check the compendium but those herbs have already been picked and eaten and added as that challenge is a late one so you've got no idea what herbs actually have been picked (just says 40/43 etc).
Same with fish and some others.

That said I am fucking loving it. The ride up to end game was really emotional and powerful and I rate this story and characters as some of the best from the Western genre that I'm a huge fan of.
 

jem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,757
I'm saying there are some objective measures of quality in certain components of a videogame that are not subjective.

It's not just Cabela's African hunt is better then god of war because game quality is subjective and therefore I'm not wrong.
Besides technical aspects, what are these objective measures of quality?
 

N.47H.4N

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,096
A huge black box in an article? It would look stupid for anybody reading the article. They wanted to showcase a point instead of hiding it behind a black box.

Also what you say is true, the twist was expected before release by some but that's why they did the best thing they can do. If people had an unconfirmed feeling about it then spoiler tagging the character's name while building a house would only make it obvious to those who knew about Breecher's Hope. They did the best they could do without spoiling anything.
I don't think was the best,they could have said "one mission in the game you are building a house",it is not uncommon to a journalist make mistakes like that.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
I don't think was the best,they could have said "one mission in the game you are building a house",it is not uncommon to a journalist make mistakes like that.
True they could have done so but even then they wanted to emphasize on the character building it through the mini game. If they just say the main character or a character while you are pressing X it would start to be suspicious.

I get your point though.
 

Deleted member 12833

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,078
The people who describe RDR2 as slow, deliberate, and realistic remind me of those who describe Killzone 2's input lag as weighty and realistic. Coincidentally, RDR2 also has terrible input lag. I mean, even the Housers know their game isn't fun to play. It's highlighted in Schrier's article. Despite all of this, some on here are arguing that we're "objectively" wrong despite not knowing what the word means.
It's funny you say that as I agree that both of those games absolutely match those descriptions. They were clearly designed to achieve that, and acting they weren't is a discredit to the devs. Whether you like it or not is a different story.

I consider both masterpieces and a lot of that has to do with how they feel when playing...more so for KZ2 as I do have complaints about RDR2 controls and how cumbersome they can be.
 

Horp

Member
Nov 16, 2017
3,712
I'm saying there are some objective measures of quality in certain components of a videogame that are not subjective.

It's not just Cabela's African hunt is better then god of war because game quality is subjective and therefore I'm not wrong.
What are these "certain components" that can be objectively better? Of course, more pixels on a screen is "more pixels" but even that isn't objectively -better- in any meaningful sense.

Also, it all started with you saying that people finding the game terrible are "objectively wrong", and the reason you gave is that the game has some objectively good aspects. Let's say for a second that you are right about that. It is still completely fine and normal and reasonable to find the game terrible.
Just like if someone had made this meal, that was so well done in almost every aspect - perfectly cooked meat, perfectly balanced sauce etc. But they also pooped a bit on the plate to the side. I'd call that a fucking terrible meal, no matter the "objectively good" qualities on the rest of the plate. And the sluggishness of the gameplay along with the lack of player agency in the missions is just that for many, many people: a turd on the plate. You can't ignore it, it's always there and it always stinks. Doesn't matter if the vistas are gorgeous or the mashed potatoes are creamy.
 

Deleted member 2834

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,620
A game that tries to be as little fun as possible at all times. Honestly, it's a niche game wrapped up with high production value. It's basically a 1899 US simulator.
 

En-ou

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,839
Man this game is really divisive on this forum

it's either people think its a masterpiece or people think its terrible, no middle ground it seems

Why do you guys think its so divisive like this?
The people who think it's terrible are talking about the gameplay and typically favours gameplay and engagement over cinematics and story. People who love the game don't mind the obtuse gameplay. If you notice, the people who love the game aren't praising its defining gameplay systems and sublime buttons and control mechanics. Because, honestly, they are shit. And frankly I expect better from a company with millions on the project.
 

PrimeBeef

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,840
Because now looks like the journalist didn't paid attention.Not if you spoiler tag the entire paragraph,and come on,a 60h campaign and not expecting a twist?And for who played the first game this was clearly and expect since the reveal.The most predicted twist and ending of all time for me,but well executed.
And even if you put a spoiler tag, you tell your readers there is a twist or something big at that moment. Kinda of spoiling it without spoiling it.
 

PrimeBeef

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,840
The people who think it's terrible are talking about the gameplay and typically favours gameplay and engagement over cinematics and story. People who love the game don't mind the obtuse gameplay. If you notice, the people who love the game aren't praising its defining gameplay systems and sublime buttons and control mechanics. Because, honestly, they are shit. And frankly I expect better from a company with millions on the project.
Yup and the only thing that really matter to me in games is how they play. If I think they play like shit, then it's a bad game to me regardless of what others think.
 

Bricktop

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,847
RDR2 is easily the most disappointing (not worst) game I've ever purchased. I literally hate everything about it in terms of gameplay. Yes, it's beautiful, yes, it has an excellent story, but mechanically it's just straight up trash. This article hits the nail on the head, tedium and ridiculous controls != realism. The fact that virtually no reviewers mentioned this stuff and completely ignored this huge aspect of the game in their quest to fall in line with the hype train is a absolute travesty.

I mean, the article isn't wrong but it's six months too late.
 

Horp

Member
Nov 16, 2017
3,712
I don't think was the best,they could have said "one mission in the game you are building a house",it is not uncommon to a journalist make mistakes like that.
Who would've known 30% of the posts discussing the article would completely ignore the point, not only of the article, but even of that specific part about the house - and focus on a typo/whatever instead.
Who cares about the name. Could've said "donald duck", that's besides the point.
 

Theorry

Member
Oct 27, 2017
61,028
RDR2 is like every R* game for me. Play it at launch for the SP and enjoy it and finish it and love every minute of it. Dont care for MP etc.
Only way i probably start it up again is in some time or SP DLC is released. Wich is fine.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,771
The people who think it's terrible are talking about the gameplay and typically favours gameplay and engagement over cinematics and story. People who love the game don't mind the obtuse gameplay. If you notice, the people who love the game aren't praising its defining gameplay systems and sublime buttons and control mechanics. Because, honestly, they are shit. And frankly I expect better from a company with millions on the project.

I think the people who say the controls are shit are overreacting. They're fine. Maybe different from other modern games but not terrible. I think it's a lot of people who are used to something else and can't or won't adjust to something a bit different.
 

Kindofblue

Banned
Sep 23, 2018
106
Couldn't beat it was utterly bored to tears after 10 hours, I respect the production values and presentation but I'm left frustrated that rockstar is still following the same gameplay formula from 15 years ago and in some aspects its actually more restrictive.

Over the last decade Rockstar has excelled in conveying believable worlds with striking attention to detail but the illusion is routinley undermined by how linear the games play, as a result I find there games to be too much icing and very little cake. It's even more aggravating considering they have the budget, resources, manpower and time to cultivate a dynamic, truly open in depth mission structure but they would rather spend it on bell's and whistles in the vain of shrinking horse testicles and realistic nose hairs and other arbitrary details.
 
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RockmanBN

Visited by Knack - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,985
Cornfields
I think the people who say the controls are shit are overreacting. They're fine. Maybe different from other modern games but not terrible. I think it's a lot of people who are used to something else and can't or won't adjust to something a bit different.
The input lag is horrendous.
reddeadredemption_2653053b.png
 

Zephy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,168
I haven't played it yet based on some posts I read, which seem to be completely confirmed by this article. I'm still not sure if I'll ever play this, even though I really liked the first one. I don't like needless tedium, I enjoyed how carefree Assassin's Creed Odyssey was and it sure looks like RDR2 is the complete opposite of that.