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Deleted member 58846

User requested account closure
Banned
Jul 28, 2019
5,086
Red Dead Redemption 2 is considered to be a divisive game, and it is easy to see why. A lot like Rockstar's own Grand Theft Auto 4, Red Dead Redemption 2 has a relentless and unflinching pursuit of its vision to the extent of even alienating its audiences to a large degree. I have spent a lot of time in this game, and after all this time, I am still not entirely sure whether my final takeaway from it is positive or negative. But one thing to me is axiomatically self evident: whether for good or for bad, Red Dead Redemption 2 is a game that sticks with you long after you are done with it.

A PINNACLE OF STORYTELLING

Where Red Dead Redemption 2 excels is in its storytelling. Indeed, I would argue that no other game to date has achieved storytelling to the extent and quality that Red Dead Redemption 2 so consistently does. Every single component of Red Dead Redemption 2 is in service to its central vision of an immersive tale of the dying west, now forever lost to the mists of time. And it is just as well, because Red Dead Redemption 2 pulls of its storytelling ambitions with aplomb and style.

The truly remarkable thing about the game is its writing, and the nuance and maturity that it displays at all time. The Housers are not my favorite writers, I will be honest. I have found their past works hackneyed, and lacking all manner of subtlety, as well as violating the chief rule of satire, which is to never punch down. Red Dead Redemption 2 could easily have gone wrong (and given how many sensitive themes it deals with, such as woman suffrage and racism, it's all too easy to imagine GTA5-style "satire" dismissing those issues for cheap laughs in the game). Instead, it's a surprisingly thoughtful treatment of that subject matter.

image-asset.jpeg

Figure 1: After how terribly hamfisted and hackneyed the writing and "satire" in Grand Theft Auto V was, fears about RDR2's writing were warranted

Equally important is the nuance the writing exhibits in other areas. Every single character in the game feels complex and dense, much like a real person would, and they talk, act, and interact like a real person would. The illusion is stunning, because it is all too easy to forget that Arthur and Charles and Sadie and Lenny and Dutch and John and so on are not real people and never were, but are lines of text created to populate this story. Any one of these could pass for a real person, so well fleshed out and developed they all are. The apex of this is, of course, Arthur Morgan himself, who is such an incredibly well written protagonist, and just such a great character overall, it's hard to believe he comes from the same minds who gave us Trevor or Franklin just a few years ago.

The actual narrative is remarkably well written, too - it carefully constructs its premise and stakes, taking the time to ensure that the player will have the time to care for these people and what happens to them, before it begins its descent into a deconstruction of Dutch's gang. In terms of pacing and approach, it actually reminds me a lot of Breaking Bad, which also similarly takes an almost excruciating amount of time to build things up, but rewards the patient viewer with the catharsis of incredible payoff.

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Figure 2: Red Dead Redemption 2's approach to pacing, characterization, foreshadowing, and payoff, can best be compared - favorably - to Breaking Bad.

Beyond just writing, Red Dead Redemption 2 excels on the storytelling front in just about every other way - we have talked about the great graphics endlessly on this forum, and the game's visual excellence is truly instrumental in helping to convince its vision of the dying Old West, and making everything seem believable and have heft. More than the graphics, what stands out is the amazing cinematography in the game - it is striking and stunning, and runs circles around what I feel is every other game ever that attempts any similar thing. Some specific scenes, such as a memorable mid-game one where Dutch's gang rides in the night, and their silhouettes are juxtaposed against the rising full moon, are film-level.

That apart, the soundtrack, voice acting, framing, scene composition, foreshadowing and payoff, and even the game's emphasis on realism, I feel, all contribute to it feeling like such an accomplished story. The incredible achievement in Red Dead Redemption 2 is its storytelling. The whole world exists to frame the story, and give it believability. It exists to be a canvas for the player's story, melded with the Housers' vision for the story. It's something else.

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Figure 3: The cinematography in Red Dead Redemption 2 is stunning

BUT A RATHER TERRIBLE GAME

The problem with everything I have said so far is that all of that praise is extended to the game's story and storytelling, and nothing else. This is obviously a problem in a video game, where the game part should also be up to scratch - note, I don't say the game part should be fun, but that it should be substantively accomplished - and the issue with Red Dead Redemption 2 is that not only is the game part not "up to scratch", but it is actively bad. This is not hyperbole in the slightest. Actually playing Red Dead Redemption 2 is a miserable experience, that can turn the finely constructed story and storytelling mechanisms in the game into a veritable slog.

The most obvious failing the game has is the controls. Much has been said about how terrible they are, so I won't bother reiterating most of that, since I doubt I have much to say that others have not said better than me already. However, the terrible mapping of the controls, the finnicky input detection, horrible user interface paradigms such as tapping to run (yes, I know this can be turned off), to just the egregious input lag, can make playing the game an actively unpleasant experience. Given how much the game emphasizes active gameplay elements such as shooting and interacting with the environment, the controls only serve to exacerbate player frustrations, and I can safely tell you that no matter how much time you spend with the game, they never get better. To get to the things the game does well, you must put up with a fundamental failing of interactive entertainment.

red-dead-redemption-2.jpg

Figure 4: For a game that wants its player to engage in action-oriented gameplay as often as Red Dead Redemption 2 does, the controls in the game are terrible

Red Dead Redemption 2 also fails as a game on multiple other levels, all of which have, again, been noted and discussed widely before - from its incredibly useless tutorials, to its terrible user interface and menus, to its bunch of extraneous systems all of which almost seem to exist in isolation outside of the core gameplay loop (I am personally of the Bruce Straley/Nintendo school of thought of "less is more, and do more with less" when it comes to game mechanics and systems), to even the irreconcilable chasm between the seeming openness of the game's world, and the extremely restrictive and railroaded nature of the missions (including insta-fail scenarios and forcing a specific solution upon the player). It gets to the point where the game part of the package is not just bad, it is outright terrible. I cannot think of a single thing Red Dead Redemption 2 tries as a "game" that it achieves well (except for the open world, which, as I have noted, I attribute more to the setting and storytelling part of things).

AN HBO PRESTIGE DRAMA

The takeaway I have from all this is that Red Dead Redemption 2 is a great monument to storytelling regardless of the medium, but a terrible game. It almost feels to me as though this should have been an HBO prestige drama, or something of the sort, because it would have been a slam dunk in such a scenario. Unlike games such as The Witcher 3, it is not even as though Red Dead Redemption 2 excels in interactive storytelling, which actively depends on player input. We have a pretty cut and dry vision of a story here that is presented to us, take it or leave it (albeit we do get variations on things based on some in-game decisions). As a game, I feel like its fundamental failings do drag down what would otherwise be an impeccable package.

And yet, in spite of all my noted complaints above, I think this game is a masterpiece, and deserving of that 97 Metascore, and that it is one of the best titles of this generation, and one that everyone should play at least once. It is an experiment in storytelling in this medium - one which spectacularly succeeds and fails, both at once.

****

Hi Era, this is my first thread ever, please go nice on me! If I did anything wrong, please do let me know!
 
Oct 27, 2017
13,464
Red Dead 2, with all its effects and narrative devices, doesn't accomplish as much as Fumito Ueda's games and their simplicity, imo.
 

Lant_War

Classic Anus Game
The Fallen
Jul 14, 2018
23,588
I found RDR2 fun. The controls are fine, they're just not as good as the rest of the game.
 

Linus815

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,801
The pacing often gets criticized, even though for me its probably the best thing about the game. It really does feel like a slow burn hbo drama.
 

Dixie Flatline

alt account
Banned
Sep 4, 2019
1,892
New Orleans
The pacing matched that of some of the best Westerns so I agree. I want to replay it eventually. Those who complain about the pacing can go suck a lemon.
 

Bundy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,931
What's with the hyperbole titles lately? "X is the best X in the history of the gaming universe."
 

Deleted member 56580

User requested account closure
Banned
May 8, 2019
1,881
Yeah no. it would be if it didnt rely on the same tropes over and over + ultimately a complete lack of twist or any meaningful tie to it all. Writing of the game just isn't good, they ran out of material outside Dutch getting unhealthy which is having severe repercussions on everyone and they called it a day on that

Rockstar did the unthinkable with Vice City I feel like, or even San Andreas for that matter. Both are very much better written

. I cannot think of a single thing Red Dead Redemption 2 tries as a "game" that it achieves well

It does the shooting part really well but the use of first person is almost mandatory since for some reason it removes all the floatiness tied to the aiming in 3rd

The hunting / exploring also is rewarding for what its worth
 

Deleted member 4353

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,559
No no no. This type of thing is subjective. I can name like 5 games I think have better stories. Also the game controls like shit.
 

JamRock7

Banned
Aug 19, 2019
2,125
FL
if RDR2 is the pinnacle, then we have a looong way to go. They completely butchered Dutch's character and the timeline of the first game
 

ShutterMunster

Art Manager
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,460
I love the narrative, but I wouldn't put it above TLOU or UC4 or even something like GONE HOME, the latter of which is an entirely different thing.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
I feel like Nier Automata surpases it due to the fact it can never be done in anything but a game. That credits sequence is one of the best things I have experienced this generation.

RDRedemption 2 could have worked well as a tv series due to how scripted it is and how little player input it requires. Great story though.
 

thecowboypoet

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,012
It's easily the best story I've experienced in a game. You have to play till the end but it all pays off.
 

AllMight1

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,720
The problem with rdr2 is the ammount of main missions that should be side missions. As a 30 hour game would have been perfect.
 

Kudo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,890
You guys read too fast.
I agree with topic, still reading through.

EDIT: Good read, I agree with pretty much everything. It's not special as game (although I don't find it as horrible as some people do) but the story is so gripping it's hard to stop playing.
 

Deleted member 56580

User requested account closure
Banned
May 8, 2019
1,881
A story doesn't need a twist to be meaningful. The themes that hold RDR 2's narrative together are pretty clear.

yeah but rdr 2 is not meaningful at all, its about a fool who cant stop being a fool cuz he can't get over himself, for approximately 50 hours. all the side stories aren't really well tied into the plot either

ill stay with the opinion that Rockstar truly peaked with Vice City / San Andreas . Bully is a strong contender too

edit : that being said I loved the whole game for very different reasons
 

Horns

Member
Dec 7, 2018
2,533
The story was amazing and very deep. I also enjoyed the pacing of it. Overall, I found it to be one of the best games of this generation. Currently playing through it a third time. I don't understand the complains about the controller personally. But I say that as someone who has played through past Rockstar games each a ridiculous number of times though and am familiar with their layout.
 

Komo

Info Analyst
Verified
Jan 3, 2019
7,110
It's pretty bad not gonna lie. Storytelling in RDR2 wasn't that great.
 

Dylan

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,260
Well articulated!
I find it funny, this sounds extremely similar to what was being said about GTAIV when it came out.
 

Horned Reaper

Member
Nov 7, 2017
1,560
I disagree. I don't think the story makes up for its shortcomings all that much. It is pretty good, but definitely not the pinnacle. Not even the best of that year for me.
 

Deleted member 56580

User requested account closure
Banned
May 8, 2019
1,881
Regarding Nier Automata, I feel like I should point out what seemed to be a huge inspiration in the name of The Secret World

It was / is an absolutely one of a kind "mmo" with much of the techniques of story telling you'd encounter in Nier, except it kinda mixes chaos theory, illuminatis, voodoo, lovecraft, classical horror and even Norsk mythology in one delightful story that is told in a rather unique way

Also strong mention to The Talos Principle, Braid and Bastion. Of course in terms of cinematography it can't reach RDR 2 but man these absolutely were milestones in the medium, outside of Rockstar constantly refining their craft

Oh and Portal of course
 

Potterson

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,418
Story? Yes. Dialogues? Sure!

Storytelling? Hell no. You can't call a game that throws a lot of story at you while doing the same "ride & listen" gig "pinnacle of storytelling".
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 58846

User requested account closure
Banned
Jul 28, 2019
5,086
Well articulated!
I find it funny, this sounds extremely similar to what was being said about GTAIV when it came out.
I actually also have immense respect for GTA4 for similar reasons (though I could not bring myself to enjoy it as much). I certainly prefer it to GTA5, which I find appallingly bad on every front. But that is a discussion for another time.
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
105,931
The game that came to mind when I read the title was Nier Automata lol
 

thediamondage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,282
It kinda felt like a video game where after I finished (the main final mission, not the epilogues) I had a bit of a "I could stop playing video games forever, now". Not because it was the greatest video game or nothing better will come along, but because it just made me feel kinda sad, melancholy, wistful, thoughtful, and reflective of my own life.
 

Lowrys

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,399
London
I don't think it tells a story particularly well, other than just throwing exposition and cutscenes at you. Plus, the gameplay doesn't enhance the storytelling in any meaningful way.
 

ThousandEyes

Banned
Sep 3, 2019
1,388
There are games that have better overall stories and even writing.

but i think as a complete product, from the voice acting performances, the cutscenes, the technical features. it's the best narrative in gaming (and i use that word as encompassing more than just writing) that I have ever seen

people have this weird love/hate relationship with Rockstar on Era.

as I said in another thread

Rockstar is probably the most famous developer outside of Nintendo. There games are AAA of the AAA gaming, giant mega blockbuster type games that are cherished my millions. It's no wonder a lot of people go against the grain when it comes to them

developers like Naughty Dog and CDPR are big studios as well, but they don't have the Rockstar level brand power. So they are still seen as having this level of "auteurship" to them. Essentially more "artsy". Rockstar is this juggernaut that people don't know how to deal with.
 

Ryuelli

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,209
I absolutely loved Red Dead 2, but Red Dead 1 told a much more interesting story.
 

Sprat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,684
England
The story was OK but I find it very repetitive & predictable.

Especially the whole I've got a plan, plan fails I've got a plan it fails over and over.

Saw the twist coming from a good way away too.
 

Master Chuuster

GamingBolt.com
Verified
Dec 14, 2017
2,651
Very well written OP. Cool thread. Agree with pretty much everything you say on the story front, especially your comparison with BrBa (I'd also liken it to Boardwalk Empire in that regard).

But Red Dead Redemption 2 is by no means "a terrible game". It's gameplay isn't exceptional as a package like its story is, but there's a lot of stuff that it does really, really well, some stuff that it does well enough, and – admittedly – some areas where it falters. It's an inconsistent but very well made game with a lot of interesting ideas even from a gameplay point of view. Terrible? Absolutely not.
 

ThousandEyes

Banned
Sep 3, 2019
1,388
The story was OK but I find it very repetitive & predictable.

Especially the whole I've got a plan, plan fails I've got a plan it fails over and over.

Saw the twist coming from a good way away too.
that's literally the whole point of the story though. the repetitiveness of Dutch who will keep saying things, keep repeating things because he doesn't want to admit his dream, his vision of a "savage utopia" is just that a dream, nothing more.....

it's not a knock on the game by any means
 

Deleted member 4037

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,989
I think the story is really poorly paced with the overall game. Even the story itself though doesnt excel narrative wise, character wise, or mechanically to the point where it has been even near the top of narrative experience for me. Honestly I would say the story was pretty boring for the most part
 

ThousandEyes

Banned
Sep 3, 2019
1,388
I think the story is really poorly paced with the overall game. Even the story itself though doesnt excel narrative wise, character wise, or mechanically to the point where it has been even near the top of narrative experience for me. Honestly I would say the story was pretty boring for the most part
I disagree, the writing is nothing special, but its the technical features of the narrative that makes it shine above any other game
 

Fjordson

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,012
It's great as a story and a game.

But people are 'bout to get angry that you praised a Rockstar game.
 

NeverWas

Member
Feb 28, 2019
2,608
I would agree if Dutch were handled differently. After the umpteenth time of him doing something stupid, handwaving it away, and everyone in the gang being like "Oh, okay, we totally trust you, Dutch", I could no longer suspend my disbelief. When your big antagonist is that poorly written, the rest of the experience suffers for it.
 

AllChan7

Tries to be a positive role model
Member
Apr 30, 2019
3,670
I think it succeeds as a story and as a game but I understand the complaints. Truly the best experience I've had playing a game all gen and a memorable one that has stuck with me since I've finished it.

The best comparison I can give it is that its like a high quality Netflix or HBO series.
 

ThousandEyes

Banned
Sep 3, 2019
1,388
It's great as a story and a game.

But people are 'bout to get angry that you praised a Rockstar game.
Why do you think this is?

its something I wanted to know. Rockstar is probably the most famous developer outside of Nintendo, and ERA is quite a gaming enthusiast website

but there is such a hardline divide on here when it comes to Rockstar, people either love them and others hate them, other developers have their detractors of Naughty Dog, CDPR, Nintendo etc. but not to the same level as R*. Are people threatened by the insane success of Rockstar.? It really seems like people get angry when a R* game is praised which will not occur from a game for another developer

its just something I noticed lurking this place, seeing R* threads and commenting in the last few days