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Alienous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,598
Red Dead Redemption 2 feels like the video game adaptation of a book.

You can say "Arthur went to take cover", "Arthur opened the cupboard to look for money", "Amidst gunfire Arthur searched the body for ammunition" in the time it takes to complete those actions.
 
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Jarmel

The Jackrabbit Always Wins
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,297
New York
I laughed at the thread title because I knew how pissed off this would have made some people.

OP isn't wrong though.
 
Nov 19, 2017
160
While I find RDR2 to be choir I still think it's a masterfully made game.
I have grown to despise the fans.
Only the deepest delusion could convince someone that Arthur's movement is realistic.
 

Deleted member 35598

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 7, 2017
6,350
Spain
You said they barely touched on gameplay and implied that a game shouldn't be getting a 10 if it has poor controls. Why shouldn't it be getting a 10 if the reviewers value other things in the game to a higher degree than they do the controls?

There are many other things RDR2 excels at - characters, story, atmosphere, world building, interactions etc. I really hate this lazy "movie game" argument. You can't insert yourself into a movie like you can with games.

It's not a matter of giving more value to other things than gameplay, it's a matter of being consistent. As a reviewer you have to point out the poor gameplay and controls all the time, not just when you're not in love with the game. It's too easy to disguise poor controls and gameplay into "design" choice.

And I've already pointed out in previous posts that the game was great in many other areas. The problem is that for many of us, if the controls are terrible, we just cannot enjoy the rest of the experience. Some people can, good for them. But no matter what, this is a serious problem in the game and it should be reflected in some capacities in the review score or - at the very minimum - being mentioned in the review.
 

Mars People

Comics Council 2020
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,181
30fps plus horredus input latency is always going to feel awful.

It always feels to me that Rockstar want to make movies rather than games.
But they make mad bank either way so eh.
 

1er tigre

Member
Oct 28, 2017
600
While I love the game, I definitely agree with the criticisms around the movement controls and mission design. When it comes to controls, it's absolutely crazy to me that in Rockstar's obsessive pursuit of "realism," they end up creating the silliest, goofiest, and most unrealistic shit ever. You want to open the drawer? Well if you're just two inches from where the animation will play, then you're going to watch Arthur awkward teleport and slide around until he's in the correct place to show you the animation. HOW IS THAT REALISTIC OR IMMERSIVE? It's especially sad that Max Payne 3 controlled so goddamn beautifully on the same engine, with similar cover-based third person shooting combat. I try to run from cover to cover and Arthur just slowly saunters about like he's in town on a cool Sunday afternoon with bullets whizzing by because I forgot to hammer on my A button to make sure he sprints. It's just so awkward and immersion-breaking.

Not to mention their over-reliance on a 24-minute day cycle, which entirely breaks the illusion, and their constant use of fictional states and places to sell their world. For the love of god, Rockstar, just create a region of, say, Colorado. It can still be fictional and feature different biomes, but I have a real hard time believing that this world that I can ride a horse across in twenty minutes is FOUR fucking states. Again, this just breaks the illusion for me, and I don't understand why they couldn't have it set in four different counties of Arizona, or New Mexico, or whathaveyou. GTAV's version of San Andreas is supposed to be an entire state, and it's smaller than the actual city of Los Angeles. I may be in the minority here, but that shit is like a giant spec in my eye that I can't ignore, and it's only further pronounced by their pursuit of realism, which they double down on with each release. Stop trying to sell me on your realistic game with its bullshit fantasy world and fantasy time passage.

And then there's the mission design. I just did a late game mission that involves infiltrating a camp with another gang member. In this mission, you follow the other guy PRECISELY and do literally everything he tells you, including, at one point, shooting a lantern to start a fire. Now... what if the game just let you infiltrate the camp, and left all of these different options as potential things you COULD do? There's a lantern above some ammo boxes, and if you shoot it, you create a distraction. Why guide me very very precisely by the nose? It's crazy that in a world where LINEAR games such as Dishonored and Splinter Cell give players a set of tools and a set of environmental obstacles and allow the player to tackle objectives how they see fit, Rockstar, the goddamn biggest innovators in open world, non-linear design, are forcing players into such insanely narrow styles of play. At times, story missions can feel more like interactive cutscenes than fun open world action.

Nakey Jakey has a fantastic video breaking down issues with the game's mission design where he compares it to Rockstar's own GTA3 and the more recent Metal Gear Solid V (which may well be the best playing third person action game that exists). I highly recommend it to anyone, regardless of whether you loved or hated RDR2:

This is a great video.
 

Heromanz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
It's not a matter of giving more value to other things than gameplay, it's a matter of being consistent. As a reviewer you have to point out the poor gameplay and controls all the time, not just when you're not in love with the game. It's too easy to disguise poor controls and gameplay into "design" choice.

And I've already pointed out in previous posts that the game was great in many other areas. The problem is that for many of us, if the controls are terrible, we just cannot enjoy the rest of the experience. Some people can, good for them. But no matter what, this is a serious problem in the game and it should be reflected in some capacities in the review score or - at the very minimum - being mentioned in the review.
But but is it a problem in the first place. Because it's not bad gameplay any traditional sense , it is a stylistic choice that Rockstar know only made. And so the question becomes when does that affect critical reception of a game. And that's mostly up to the person. It's similar movies and other entertainment in which the creators have a particular style in mind
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,887
Even when presented with video evidence.
Even when people are telling them "this is why I quit".
Even with countless comments like this ITT and the OT and other RDR2 threads.

"It's not a legitimate issue".

Lol.
 

Gxgear

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,160
Vancouver
It was a slog to get through, credit to the story which was my main motivation. Gameplay-wise the game never elevates, mission 1 plays exactly the same as the last mission. The extra mechanics Rockstar just got in the way most of the time, and only served to artificially elongate the gametime. I keep wracking my brain, trying to think of what makes this game better than RDR1 (other than technical prowess). But I can't.
 

eso76

Prophet of Truth
Member
Dec 8, 2017
8,106
Call it a primacy-recency effect, but the experience as a whole was one of the most memorable the medium has to offer and Arthur not being very responsive is just something that doesn't really bring the game down in the grand scheme of things.

I'll admit I'd have a hard time reviewing the game and rating it: I perfectly know a lot of people would hate its control, pace and structure so I couldn't recommend it to everyone lightly. But then it is also a groundbreaking achievement that absolutely deserves recognition.

Just realise that people look for different things in games and you weren't able to see, or don't value the aspects RDR2 excels at enough to look past the issues.
That are absolutely there, particularly the extremely linear nature and predictable development of the main missions and a few things that could have been streamlined.

(I personally never had troubles with the sluggishness past the prologue, and the controls still allow for some incredibly dynamic and cool looking shootouts (GIFs needed), but that's just for the record and beyond the point.)

Also, MGSV
 
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IIFloodyII

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,952
Even when presented with video evidence.
Even when people are telling them "this is why I quit".
Even with countless comments like this ITT and the OT and other RDR2 threads.

"It's not a legitimate issue".

Lol.
Reply to me directly next time.
There's plenty of Video evidence of good ragdoll physics too, you don't see me pretending it's flawless or using it as a shield because I have no response to your arguments despite that do you? If you think the ragdoll physics play a big role in the bad controls, explain Max Payne 3, it's a simple task, but you can't, you just completely dodge it.

I haven't seen a single person say they dropped the game because of the ragdoll physics either and if they did, it's such a minuscule amount of people it's irrelevant. The only reason I could think of is it possibly killing you and your horse, I have not seen that happen.
 

mas8705

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,497
The moment I watched Arthur walk off a cliff when trying to collect treasure was my indicator that the game might not be as good as others say. If you like RDR2, all the more power to you since it is a really good game. I just can't bring myself to finish the game.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,887
The moment I watched Arthur walk off a cliff when trying to collect treasure was my indicator that the game might not be as good as others say. If you like RDR2, all the more power to you since it is a really good game. I just can't bring myself to finish the game.

Here's another. Janky physics and bad controls. But it will be ignored because people can't take criticism of games they like.
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
I wonder what would happen if you applied say AC Origin actions and control to RDR2. Would it break the game technically, does Rockstar need that animation breather for the world to work? Would it magnify weak mission design, game design. If people just rush through standard actions, is there much left and would it make the game overall better or just highlight the flaws ?
 

IIFloodyII

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,952
I wonder what would happen if you applied say AC Origin actions and control to RDR2. Would it break the game technically, does Rockstar need that animation breather for the world to work? Would it magnify weak mission design, game design. If people just rush through standard actions, is there much left and would it make the game overall better or just highlight the flaws ?
It'd probably look really weird, like some animations do in AC:O. Probably feel a lot worse with that much input lag with a relatively fast paced game.
 

Heromanz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
I wonder what would happen if you applied say AC Origin actions and control to RDR2. Would it break the game technically, does Rockstar need that animation breather for the world to work? Would it magnify weak mission design, game design. If people just rush through standard actions, is there much left and would it make the game overall better?
It would go against their style so probably not
 

Resilient

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,418
This whole thing is dumb because I could do this for any game. I mean I fucking love breath of the wild but I can go on about things that I don't like and that's going to happen with any game no matter how good it it.

Yep, I said it earlier. Games are either fucking amazing or fucking shit. See: the post you quoted. you can take a shit on basically any amazing game if you want to, but "it's just my opinion ya'll lol!".
 

mogwai00

Member
Mar 24, 2018
1,248
Controls and gameplay have definitely their issues, but in general I like them.

My biggest problem is how the game use them.

The structure of most the main missions is a joke. Basically no freedom, no flexibility, no depth. They aren't just an insult to the idea of open world/sandbox, they would be a chore even for a very linear game.
 

Surface of Me

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,207
This discussion is kinda reminding me of Wolfenstein 2 last year. I adored the story and shooting mechanics, but the level design and difficulty curve was straight up abysmal at times. I still went through it to see the end, I probably won't with RDR2. Granted one is much longer than the other, but at the same time W2 tells it's story, RDR really meanders around even when you're just trying to do story missions.
 

VanDoughnut

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,424
Controls and gameplay have definitely their issues, but in general I like them.

My biggest problem is how the game use them.

The structure of most the main missions is a joke. Basically no freedom, no flexibility, no depth. They aren't just an insult to the idea of open world/sandbox, they would be a chore even for a very linear game.

Yes I wouldn't mind how strict and linear the missions are if what I was being directed to do was interesting. But the missions are dull/samey and don't mix it up, or show much imagination half the time.

In the end Rockstar probably too busy sleeping soundly on their beds made of cash and looking at their 97 MC, and all the "it's fine, I put 70 hours into it" posts to care lol so I'm not sure much will change with their mission structure. But it should and could be much better.
 

Deleted member 249

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,828
Lowly. Right. Zelda has the same metascore and came out last year. The Witcher is at 93. MGSV is at 93. By all accounts occasional jank in a gigantic open world game with horse riding in it has never prevented a high metascore. And none of those games have the level of physics at play Red Dead does. Why are you framing things in a disingenuous way?
Reminder that Zelda does have a whole lot of systems in play at all times, and that its horse riding is better than RDR2's.
That said, I do think the complaints about the "jank" are a bit overblown. Jank implies lack of polish. For good or for bad, RDR2 functions as intended.
 

Heromanz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
Yes I wouldn't mind how strict and linear the missions are if what I was being directed to do was interesting. But the missions are dull/samey and don't mix it up, or show much imagination half the time.

In the end Rockstar probably too busy sleeping soundly on their beds made of cash and looking at their 97 MC, and all the "it's fine, I put 70 hours into it" posts to care lol so I'm not sure much will change with their mission structure. But it should and could be much better.
Is always going to be a struggle with games like this and games in general. Because of a certain point you just can't have it all. I mean it's clear what Rockstar set out to make and the gameplay wasn't the first thing on their minds.
 

leng jai

Member
Nov 2, 2017
15,117
RDR 2 is probably the first big game with a 90+ MC that hasn't had a honeymoon period. Normally these games get at least a few weeks to a month where everyone praises it to the high heavens but RDR 2 has been getting hammered from day one for its controls despite the extremely high meta score.
 

Deleted member 249

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,828
RDR 2 is probably the first big game with a 90+ MC that hasn't had a honeymoon period. Normally these games get at least a few weeks to a month where everyone praises it to the high heavens but RDR 2 has been getting hammered from day one for its controls despite the extremely high meta score.
Cause the controls are trash. Combine that with its slow pace, and its emphasis on systemic realism, which are both things that are divisive at the best of times (remember GoW and BotW got criticized for a variant of these complaints respectively) and you have a perfect storm of a package that is antithetical to what many enjoy from the get go.
 

Bricktop

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,847
You can absolutely tell that the game was in development forever because for as much as it looks and feels like a next gen game, it plays like something from a decade ago. I've never, in my 40 years of gaming, played a game that hit highs this high and lows as low as RDR2. It's a completely maddening and frustrating experience to one moment be in awe and the next fuming over gameplay.

I dropped it about 15 hours in and for as beautiful as it is I haven't had even a hint of desire to pick it back up.
 

Resilient

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,418
I'd be interested to see the demographics for RDR2, especially for the people who dropped it after X amount of hours. I'm not saying you need to be an experienced and esteemed pro-gamer to enjoy it. But I'd wager that if you've been playing games for 20 or so years, your tolerance for good and bad will be much higher.
 

Deleted member 27751

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
3,997
I'm sick of picking up fucking herbs. Just. Fuck stop playing animations that are drawn out for the sake of it. Same with skinning. The gameplay is amazing and so satisfying but boy do the animations piss me off at times, especially moving around with the input lag.

There is definitely purpose to the weight of your controls but like GTA V Rockstar just goes too ham without actually looking at other games.
I'd be interested to see the demographics for RDR2, especially for the people who dropped it after X amount of hours. I'm not saying you need to be an experienced and esteemed pro-gamer to enjoy it. But I'd wager that if you've been playing games for 20 or so years, your tolerance for good and bad will be much higher.
I'd argue it's the complete opposite in that those like myself who are 27+ years old we've played enough to know when a game is shit because of how much we have played. That's not to say I hate this game far from it and I only just got past Strawberry and the first bust out. However there is definitely gameplay mechanics that are atrocious for a game so polished.

Like marking something on your map, then going into cinematic mode then holding X to actually trigger auto patching. Who the fuck thought that was cool. Also cinematic mode should have been a stick click or something, the map should open on ps4 touch pad and actually be able to scroll.
 

Spartancarver

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,453
Red Dead Redemption 2 feels like the video game adaptation of a book.

You can say "Arthur went to take cover", "Arthur opened the cupboard to look for money", "Amidst gunfire Arthur searched the body for ammunition" in the time it takes to complete those actions.

This is amazing. 100% true.

What do all the RDR2 defenders in this thread feel about the game's hand to hand combat?

It's probably the worst hand to hand combat I've ever played in a 3rd person game. Is that also on purpose?
 

More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,622
This is amazing. 100% true.

What do all the RDR2 defenders in this thread feel about the game's hand to hand combat?

It's probably the worst hand to hand combat I've ever played in a 3rd person game. Is that also on purpose?
I found the brawling so satisfying. The animations, the facial damage, the little touches like how enemies would attempt to disarm if you tried to draw a gun, the contextual attacks like throwing guys through windows or drowning them if you're fighting in low water. It was simple without being boring; you felt the impact of every punch and tackle
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
I found the brawling so satisfying. The animations, the facial damage, the little touches like how enemies would attempt to disarm if you tried to draw a gun, the contextual attacks like throwing guys through windows or drowning them if you're fighting in low water. It was simple without being boring; you felt the impact of every punch and tackle
Yes, other open world games feel primitive in comparison.
 

King_Moc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,126
I found the brawling so satisfying. The animations, the facial damage, the little touches like how enemies would attempt to disarm if you tried to draw a gun, the contextual attacks like throwing guys through windows or drowning them if you're fighting in low water. It was simple without being boring; you felt the impact of every punch and tackle

I just tapped the punch button until I inevitably won. Like everything in the game, it's super detailed, but the gameplay is appalling.
 

VanDoughnut

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,424
Is always going to be a struggle with games like this and games in general. Because of a certain point you just can't have it all. I mean it's clear what Rockstar set out to make and the gameplay wasn't the first thing on their minds.

Iono a studio with an unlimited budget like Rockstar should be better equipped than most to "have it all". Especially after GTAV cause some of those heist missions are pretty elaborate.

Anyway the game is about a gunslinger and Westerns are known for their action. So it's a pretty big let down when the shooting and design of the missions fail to live up to the world they created.

Open world games are crowded and most expect them to be good on all fronts. The best open world games and games in general won't sacrifice key aspects.
 

Aaron D.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,306
Red Dead Redemption 2 feels like the video game adaptation of a book.

You can say "Arthur went to take cover", "Arthur opened the cupboard to look for money", "Amidst gunfire Arthur searched the body for ammunition" in the time it takes to complete those actions.

The real tragedy is that some will never recognize and thus appreciate the value of a high-production game doing just this.
 

Kenai

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,182
I agree with you very much OP. I finished the game but after I got to a certain point I just started ignoring the (amazing) world and wanted it to be over so I rushed through the main story as quickly as possible.

I don't care how much people try to excuse away those controls/lag/ect, because there simply is no excuse for them, and like OP I am extremely disappointed that they aren't being called out on it more, because that means they'll have little reason to improve. The fact that it probably would have been one of my favorites of this gen (maybe of all time) if not for that crap makes it all the more maddening.

The PC version's controls (modded or otherwise) and mundane animation skipping will hopefully elevate this game to what it should have been, but I'm likely not going to touch the game again until then, will trade it in my next day off while the price is still high. Definitely never picking up a game from this company again on Day 1.
 

EJS

The Fallen - Self Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 31, 2017
9,176
The game feels like an M rated Animal Crossing or Stardew Valley at times but often forgets that. It's really something - it's so engrossing and does so many things so well but leaves a lot of emphasized things ultimately inconsequential.
 

EJS

The Fallen - Self Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 31, 2017
9,176
I would have hated if I had to slap a number on this game for a review. Arguably one of the more difficult reviews to articulate all my points.
 

Alastor3

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,297
It's not the best gameplay but it's not the worst. It's servicable.

Just like the Witcher 3.

You see, sometimes, games aren't great when you pick them part by part, but as a whole, work really well.