Sounds so good, nothing worse than standing around in a void waiting for a game to load.
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Reasonable expectations for the PSVR2
- Thread starter Alucardx23
- Start date
This especially is something to look forward to seeing implemented, but also funneling all the specially optimized parallel computing power of the PS5 into current PSVR, especially with exponentially more compute resources to track the lights eliminating Move stick drift some people get completely is already going to be overwhelming.
Honestly, just give me a headset where the experience of using it and ease of setup is equivalent to using a Oculus Quest hooked up to a PC, combine that with the specs+inside-out tracking of the Rift S and I'll be happy. With the Move controllers I'm generally good with their current form factor. It's the Move's tracking, button layout and lack of analog sticks that all need to be rectified.
EDIT: Also, I hope that the PSVR2 will be compatible with PS4 games played on a PS5. That's actually really important to me.
EDIT: Also, I hope that the PSVR2 will be compatible with PS4 games played on a PS5. That's actually really important to me.
OP
OP
Definitely, on games that have limited VR modes like Ace Combat and Gran Turismo Sport, I want to see full access to the game in VR, along with supersampling and higher framerates. This, along with all of the current PCVR games that cannot be easily ported to the PS4, due to technical limitations, will easily sustain the PSVR while the PSVR2 comes out.
Do you believe that those better upscale technics coming next-gen will benefit PSVR2? Or we need native resolution only for the headset?
I have zero experience with VR, but more wires is not something I want to see. I'd be more likely to buy it if its wireless. I expect it to be priced around the same as as PS5. 500 or so. The price for the steam index is a little ridiculous to me. That money gets you a new gaming PC, a new 4K tv, like what is so special about this compared to other options?
OP
OP
If you're referring to techniques similar to DLSS and VRSS, yes. There are no VR games that I'm aware of that have support for DLSS, but supersampling is something we can already do today on current PCVR headsets and it does noticeable increase the image quality. The good thing about eye tracking is that you can use supersampling on only the parts of the screen where you are focusing on and lower the resolution on the rest of the display.
My point is that supersampling comes with a cost. Upscale Technics are almost free...
Definitely eye tracking will benefit everything.
Definitely eye tracking will benefit everything.
That seems impossible since a PSVR2 headset hasn't been announced. I know they confirmed PSVR1 would work on PS5 but I want whatever PSVR2 is to work with PS4 VR games on a PS5. We know nothing about a PSVR2 and how compatible or not it would be with PS4 & PS4 games so I don't want to assume anything.
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OP
Cables will definitely not be a thing on future VR headsets. On regards to price, there is a whole range of consumer VR headsets you can buy that go from the 300 + to $1000 for the Index. You are in no way obliged to spend so much if you don't want to. Any of the lower cost headsets (Mixed Reality Headsets) will also give you a good enough experience on most cases. I personally expect for the PSVR2 to be around $350 to $400. This seems very possible when we see headsets like the Oculus Quest and all of the features it has for $400.
It's $500 for the headset, ~$280 for the controllers.
The controllers are packed with sensors for finger tracking.
I don't know if playing PSVR on PSVR2 has been confirmed.
I'd be surprised if it didn't happen, but depending on the tracking solution, it may require a bit more work to ensure it still works. At least on Sony's end.
You're right. It's been confirmed PSVR1 would work. My bad
These are some of the things we can expect for the PSVR2, based on patents that have been disclosed so far, Sony related articles and my expectations for the technology by 2021/2022. This of course does not mean they are guaranteed to happen, just that it is a possibility.
Gaze/Eye tracking
-How it works:
Just like the name says Gaze/Eye tracking allows the headset to know where you are looking at on the screen. The biggest limitation of adding eye tracking to VR headsets is cost, but the price of adding this should be greatly reduced by 2021/2022.
-What it will allow:
Foveated rendering: Is a technique that allows to reduce graphical detail on the parts of the screen you are not focusing on. You won't notice any image degradation because everything you are not looking at is out of focus and it's not reaching the part of the retina that captures more detail (fovea).
Example of how foveated rendering increases performance on the Vive Pro Eye. It can help to reduce graphics load by up to 70.75%. The Vive Pro Eye tracks the eyes at 120hz, but it is likely this will be increased on the PSVR2, to allow even more aggressive performance savings.
-PlayStation's Dominic Mallinson: "I think that the gaze tracking is the most exciting change that we'll see in next-gen VR," Mallinson declared. "So really, if you look at the history of user input, starting off with keyboards, and then the mouse, and recently touchscreen interfaces, I seriously think that having gaze as a user input is going to be as fundamental as each of those changes we've had in the past. That's my number one point about next-generation VR: Gaze will allow much, much richer user interaction."
"More pixels needs more rendering performance," Mallinson explained. "If you just brute force it, it requires a lot of extra rendering performance. The human eye has a part in the retina called the fovea, which is responsible for our super-sharp vision. We don't see very much in the peripheral vision. So if we can match our rendering performance to the fovea, we can deliver higher effective resolutions, and also better quality images. So gaze tracking is a win-win in this respect."
Sony patent link
Iris login: Your Iris is unique so it can be used for the headset to identify who is putting it on and automatically log you in to your account or game save file. This can also be used for parental control.
Source
Hand tracking
-How it works: By using multiple capacitive sensors on the controller it is possible to track every single finger in your hand.
-What it will allow: A greater level of expression and interaction in VR.
Sony patent link
Facial Tracking
-How it works: Dedicated sensors to track eye and mouth movements.
-What it will allow: For you to express better what you feel in a virtual environment. This will greatly enhance the experience on VR social interactions and can even be used for NPCs in a game to have a better idea of what are you feeling and where are you focusing your attention.
Sony patent link
Wireless
-How it works: Just like the name implies, it means sending a wireless signal from the processing device to the VR headset. Having a wired connection to the PC/gaming console is still a major factor that takes you out of being immersed, so I think we can be pretty sure that by 2021 the PSVR2 will be wireless.
-What it will allow: Greater immersion and quality of life improvement in VR.
-PlayStation's Dominic Mallinson: "User comfort is incredibly important in order to widen the adoption of virtual reality," Mallinson emphasized. "There are many aspects to user comfort. I'm just going to touch on one here. And that is the cable. Being tethered to this cable is inconvenient. And it's not just about getting tangled up in the cable. It's not just about the restriction in your motion. It's also about how you set things up, how you configure the system, where you store it. Let's face it, having a mess of cables in your living space is just not attractive. So this is something that we have to solve in order to get wider adoption."
Sony patent link
Inside out tracking
-How it works: The headsets does its own positional tracking, instead of depending on external sensors to track the headset movements.
-What it will allow: Makes the setup process a lot easier to do, as you don't need to dedicate space or time to setup the external sensors.
New Sony Patent Points To Inside-Out Tracking For VR Headsets
"Many people in the virtual reality (VR) industry believe that inside-out tracking is the future of consumer-grade HMDs. We've seen prototypes from Oculus with Santa Cruz and Intel's Project Alloy-powered devices and now Sony is dipping their toes into the inside-out tracking race. Today we caught wind of a new Utility Patent Application from Sony Interactive Entertainment that would allow for inside-out tracking of interactive VR devices.
The full patent application was originally filed back on December 6th, 2016, just two months after Oculus' Santa Cruz prototype was announced. The patent application's Abstract is difficult to parse, but what's being described sounds similar to existing prototypes and methods of using an inside-out tracked VR headset."
Sony patent link
Higher resolution panel
-How it works: A higher resolution panel compared to the 1920 x 1080 one on the PSVR, means a higher concentration of pixels.
-What it will allow: Greater definition on whatever you see on your headset.
PlayStation's Dominic Mallinson: "This is more pixels per degree. It's about the sharpness and the clarity of the display. And you have to be able to match what people expect to see today with high definition. I would expect the resolution to roughly double in the next set of VR products."
Sony-backed Japan Display launches new high-end VR screens that could power PSVR 2
"Japan Display, a joint venture between Sony, Hitachi, and Toshiba, today announced separate 1,001-pixel-per-inch (PPI) and 803PPI displays specifically designed for VR use. While the new screens boast visual improvements that set the stage for a second-generation PlayStation VR, they also hint at a future market trend in VR design: lower-size, lower-weight headsets."
Japan Display claims that as "even more compact-size LCDs and higher magnification lenses are required to decrease the size and weight of HMD devices," only "over 1000PPI" options will be sufficient to actually shrink headsets. So it appears that the joint venture's 803PPI screens are intended for headsets roughly as large as current options, while the 1,001PPI screens will go into smaller, lighter units.
Unlike the current PSVR screen — a single 5.7-inch, 1,920 by 1,080 panel that uses OLED technology — both of the new screens are eye-specific LTPS TFT-LCDs, featuring "IPS designed for VR." Notably, only the higher-end 1,001PPI screen can match the current PSVR's 120Hz refresh rate, as the lower-end 803PPI screen has a maximum 90Hz refresh rate — enough for most VR apps, but with higher system latency."
Source
HDR
-How it works: It allows a panel to display a higher contrast or color range between the lightest and darkest tones in an image.
-What it will allow: More believable and color rich worlds in VR.
PlayStation's Dominic Mallinson: In the TV industry, HDR is already incredibly important to creating the best experiences. The human eye sees an enormous range of light from bright sunlight to deep shadow. Today's VR panels only capture a tiny fraction of that. So in order to increase the sense of presence, I do expect to see HDR adopted in the near future."
Source
Wider field of view
-How it works: Most current VR headsets have a 100 to 110 degrees of horizontal field of view, the normal human vision has a range of around 180/220 degrees. This is the main reason why it can feel like you a wearing a scuba mask when using a VR headset.
-What it will allow: Allow you to view VR worlds in a way that takes more advantage of your full field of view.
PlayStation's Dominic Mallinson: "we also need a greater field of view," he continued. "The human visual system is out to about 180 degrees. Most VR headsets today are about 100 degrees. There are diminishing returns to get wider. But I would expect the next set of products to be roughly 120 degrees in terms of field of view.
Source
Can I just say thank you for how you've laid out this post. It's really informative and gets across what it actually means for the end consumer. I wish more threads were like this!
Wonder if the first PSVR will get a significant boost on PS5? Could be a good option for those just starting out and won't be using VR much, if we see some crazy value on a big price drop on that unit and the performance is improved with PS5 than it could be a good option
OP
OP
You are welcome! There are a lot of cool stuff that will happen in the near future and I wanted to share that.
I'm really interested in jumping into PSVR but I'm not sure. Is it worth it in 2020? I'm hoping for a wireless headset and better controllers for PSVR 2 though.
While the current pandemic has almost certainly caused something like a PSVR2 to slip (if it does in fact exist) the only way I would recommend anyone buy current gen hardware during a pre-generation shift would be if they can get it for a steal. So personally, I would hold off on PSVR unless you can get a crazy deal on it (which seems unlikely at the moment).
Not confirmed at all, but given the apprent fluidity of PS4, PS4Pro games on PS5 it shouldn't be a problem. What could be problemtic is getting patches that actually upscale resolution in a smart way rather then just adding another dumb generic computational translation layer on top since so many small VR studios from the early days went belly up.
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Added to the OP.
Sony VR Patents Show PSVR With Headphones, Shared Virtual Space and More
A fair number of Sony VR patents have surfaced detailing a virtual shared space for players, a PSVR with headphones and more.
mp1st.com
Added to the OP.
Sony VR Patents Show PSVR With Headphones, Shared Virtual Space and More
A fair number of Sony VR patents have surfaced detailing a virtual shared space for players, a PSVR with headphones and more.mp1st.com
I do wonder if we'll see something much more akin to Oculus and Vive with these patents about real world positioning finally.
That said, I would expect PSVR2 to still be a wired, tethered headset for the sake of cost. I wonder if they opt to just bundle in significantly longer cables for the next iteration. It would be a little annoying but it would keep costs significantly lower which is one of the major points that make PSVR so attractive.
Get eye tracking along with new move controllers and that's pretty much all I'd need to be happy with a PSVR 2.
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Everything is pointing to a PSVR2 with inside out tracking. I fully expect for the PSVR2 to be wireless. There is an app called virtual desktop for Oculus Quest, that allows you to play PCVR games using wifi. This is already surprisingly good for something that is basically a hack. If we get this type of result with a 5Ghz router and a $400 headset, then I think we can expect an evolution of this on the PSVR2. I see wires being used only when the headset is out of charge.
I just need better resolution, good intern tracking and the capability to play games in an equal technical PC standard oh and good hand controllers.
That's all, doesn't need to be too fancy.
That's all, doesn't need to be too fancy.
GIVEN:
POSSIBLE BUT WILL DEPEND ON HOW EXPENSIVE THEY WANT TO MAKE IT:
NICE TO HAVE BUT WHO KNOWS:
NO CHANCE:
- Inside out tracking
- Built in headphones
- Higher Resolution Panels
- Wider FoV
POSSIBLE BUT WILL DEPEND ON HOW EXPENSIVE THEY WANT TO MAKE IT:
- Gaze/Eye Tracking
- Wireless
NICE TO HAVE BUT WHO KNOWS:
- Hand tracking
- HDR
NO CHANCE:
- Facial tracking
OP
OP
Difficult to know, but it's something that I would definitely like to see. I always take the Oculus Quest as reference and what it was able to do on 2019 for $400. By 2021-2022 Sony could aim to release one model that is designed to work with the PS5 and another Quest like stand alone unit, that also has the ability to work with the PS5.
Yeah, that's the dream scenario for me. I'm hoping it's at least in consideration. The Quest uses ARM though, & I wonder if that would be a barrier for Sony. Because of course, they would also want you to use it with the PS5, but is that going to be a problem when there's such a high priority on the SSD? No, I don expect games to look as good when you're playing portable, but they would it to be as fast as possible as well.
It would only make it more expensive and force developers to make two games instead of just focusing on PS5 version.
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The Quest uses ARM and that has not stopped it from being able to work with PCVR games. Having the Quest work with PCVR is something that was obviously decided after the Quest was released and even then, they did a good enough job. Something like a PSVR portable would connect directly to a PS5 video out.
The success the Quest has shown that portable VR is here to stay and this will ensure a library of games for a PSVR2 portable. Like I already said, look at what the Quest is able to do for $400 and it was released on 2019. Not saying that Sony should only release a PSVR portable option, but it would be good to have the option.
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It would be a bad move for sony to leave current PSVR games out of backwards compatibility on PS5 or for PSVR2. People still get excited for Astro Bot, and rightly so. Leaving it only on 1st gen PSVR is leaving a game that would contribute to headset sales right on the table.
I hope that all of the current PSVR catalog makes it over. Rez Infinite, Astro Bot, Blood and Truth, Déraciné, WipEout, the whole bunch. Even add-ons like the modes for The Last Guardian and Ace Combat.
I hope that all of the current PSVR catalog makes it over. Rez Infinite, Astro Bot, Blood and Truth, Déraciné, WipEout, the whole bunch. Even add-ons like the modes for The Last Guardian and Ace Combat.
This makes me more hopeful. Crossing my fingers for it to happen! Thank you for entertaining my rambling.
I think it will hit pretty much all the points in the OP except for eye tracking, assuming it's coming at launch or within the first year. At the expected $400-500 price point, it'll generally be in line with the successors to the Rift S, Quest, and HP's new model, but with Valve Index-ish controllers.
Maybe eye tracking is on the table if it's coming 18+ months after PS5 launches. I just don't see it happening soon since none of the PC headsets have really cracked it yet.
Maybe eye tracking is on the table if it's coming 18+ months after PS5 launches. I just don't see it happening soon since none of the PC headsets have really cracked it yet.
Slight unimpressive update. Still a novelty for console gamers and capital investment in this arena isn't worth the risk for investors. There isn't a true market for it and the cost to make one is crazy expensive. Find me in 50 years when Sony is incorporated in home builds with hollodecks. Hope I'm wrong, but dont see anything but a niche concept for many years to come.
Fantastic thread! I really do hope we see virtually all of these, and it's encouraging to see someone involved in developing PSVR2 to bring up basically what he thinks is required.
The Quest, for a really underpowered device, shows that inside out tracking and even decent finger tracking purely via camera is well on its way to maturity. PSVR can and should 100% feature these. Finger tracking for certain games but also for a ubiquitous and seamless OS operation would be lovely. Just stick the headset on, navigate through OS with fingers, no need to pick up a controller to play a movie on a lovely virtual cinema screen etc. Wider field of view is absolutely essential too. PSVR as it stands is just too narrow, it massively diminishes the impact of VR when you feel so restricted by a low viewing angle which is more like looking through binoculars.
And then we have the potential of foveated rendering paired up with a massively more pixel dense screen. We have a real chance of at least getting on par with 4K tv visuals but as a VR experience, and perhaps even surpassing the visual fidelity you can get on a 2D screen, but in VR. Paired with the power of PS5 we could honestly be seeing photoreal immersive VR gaming in something like Gran Turismo.
I am absolutely stoked for VR on PS5, and I honestly think they will deliver on a lot of this, if not all. I think wireless is clearly possible, but I'd be happy for it to be an add on or even an entirely separate SKU at a more expensive price. I can handle cables for a lot of the way I would be maximising my VR usage (VR racing games sat down for instance) but wireless definitely unlocks a lot more potential.
It's probably getting very lofty now but I'd love them to include AR as well, and if it has outside facing cameras for tracking then maybe this will be a feature too. Being able to jump between being in VR and being back in the room seamlessly would definitely help in overall usage of VR for extended periods (reaching over for a drink without having to remove the headset for instance).
I'm very curious to see where all this tech ends up in the next two years and how viable all of these hopes are for an affordable product. The parents and comments give me hope they're really gonna push the boat out.
I do think VR could have far more general usage if they can hit some of these goals. You could play every 2D game in VR and even possibly 3D VR if eye tracked foveated rendering is a thing. There would be enough power to run any normal 2D PS5 game but through 3D on a virtual monitor. And if there's a high density display it will at least look as clear as game play on a 1080 tv does now.
God damn bring on next gen!
The Quest, for a really underpowered device, shows that inside out tracking and even decent finger tracking purely via camera is well on its way to maturity. PSVR can and should 100% feature these. Finger tracking for certain games but also for a ubiquitous and seamless OS operation would be lovely. Just stick the headset on, navigate through OS with fingers, no need to pick up a controller to play a movie on a lovely virtual cinema screen etc. Wider field of view is absolutely essential too. PSVR as it stands is just too narrow, it massively diminishes the impact of VR when you feel so restricted by a low viewing angle which is more like looking through binoculars.
And then we have the potential of foveated rendering paired up with a massively more pixel dense screen. We have a real chance of at least getting on par with 4K tv visuals but as a VR experience, and perhaps even surpassing the visual fidelity you can get on a 2D screen, but in VR. Paired with the power of PS5 we could honestly be seeing photoreal immersive VR gaming in something like Gran Turismo.
I am absolutely stoked for VR on PS5, and I honestly think they will deliver on a lot of this, if not all. I think wireless is clearly possible, but I'd be happy for it to be an add on or even an entirely separate SKU at a more expensive price. I can handle cables for a lot of the way I would be maximising my VR usage (VR racing games sat down for instance) but wireless definitely unlocks a lot more potential.
It's probably getting very lofty now but I'd love them to include AR as well, and if it has outside facing cameras for tracking then maybe this will be a feature too. Being able to jump between being in VR and being back in the room seamlessly would definitely help in overall usage of VR for extended periods (reaching over for a drink without having to remove the headset for instance).
I'm very curious to see where all this tech ends up in the next two years and how viable all of these hopes are for an affordable product. The parents and comments give me hope they're really gonna push the boat out.
I do think VR could have far more general usage if they can hit some of these goals. You could play every 2D game in VR and even possibly 3D VR if eye tracked foveated rendering is a thing. There would be enough power to run any normal 2D PS5 game but through 3D on a virtual monitor. And if there's a high density display it will at least look as clear as game play on a 1080 tv does now.
God damn bring on next gen!
Even PSVR1 for the same games gives like 2X generation leap experience(ex. Flat Wipeout, Resident Evil, Dirt vs VR versions).
I can't even imagine PSVR2's potential.
Has got to be wireless. I think thats the number 1 barrier of entry for the mass market. Yes, resolution is important and yes, people not getting motion sick is important but theres nothing like being able to hand a new cool thing to someone and they being able to try it out within seconds
Possible and frankly if PSVR2 still requires a camera then it has already failed.
OP
OP
I guess you meant external cameras/sensors? If yes, then we already have several headsets that come with the tracking cameras as part of the headset itself.
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The point of the Quest is to make VR accessible for players that don't have a PC to run VR on. The point of PSVR2 will be to sell VR to users that already have a PS5.
The console already has way more power than anything you could get portably, any money spent in making solo experiences would be money that could be used in offering a better headset.
I really want these headsets to be lighter, but that's not gonna happen for a long time considering how many new features are being added.
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As a Quest owner that uses it almost every day I disagree. The point of making the Quest a reference, is to show how much better it is compared to the PSVR (Also launched at $400) and to show how the technology keeps improving over time. By 2020/2021, if Sony manages to offer me something similar to an evolution of the Quest, also at $400, I will definitely buy it. This doesn't mean that Sony cannot also release a cheaper $300- headset, that is only dedicated to work with the PS5.
I also have a gaming PC and I have the option to connect my Quest to it. There are even apps like Alt Space and Bigscreen VR that are on both, but even though they look better on my PC, I prefer the ease of access that the Quest offers. I usually have my Quest besides my bed and I use it a lot for social experiences and web browsing. I can also easily take my Quest everywhere I go if needed. The potential is immense once you start combining things like PS Now (VR headsets use very low input lag screens) and even productivity apps. See the video below for the type of experiences that could be possible with inside out tracking cameras.
Social spaces we could have using PS Now.
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Great detailed thread!
HDR in VR would be great. I think PSVR will have a nice balance of being affordable but being a great headset with impressive features. The games will be what will give it an edge.
Hopefully the GT7 in VR will be fully featured as opposed to more of a side mode that it was in GT Sport.
HDR in VR would be great. I think PSVR will have a nice balance of being affordable but being a great headset with impressive features. The games will be what will give it an edge.
Hopefully the GT7 in VR will be fully featured as opposed to more of a side mode that it was in GT Sport.
Wireless would be huge for me as well. Setup/carrying the cords/and having them dangle of your head is just a lot. If it's wireless I'm there day one.
Obviously other nice to haves would be higher resolution screen and dropping the move controllers for something that allows 360 movement.
Obviously other nice to haves would be higher resolution screen and dropping the move controllers for something that allows 360 movement.
Not happening.
My biggest request? Better controllers, less visible pixels, and wireless. You do that (especially if I don't have to buy a PS5 to use it), it's an instabuy from me.
The issue for me is the added cost of a rechargeable batteries, added processors for latency and overall weight of the device relative to user comfort.
Does Oculus sell the Oculus Quest at a profit for each unit or is it sold at loss and written off by Facebook's money? That's an aspect of the $400 that I'm not sure about here.
We know Sony is not in the business of selling consoles at a loss anymore so I would imagine that's a large factor in the wired vs. wireless decision here.
I agree with this and it's what made adoption of PSVR prevalent in the first place.
A LOT of people already owned a PS4 and for a variety of reasons, couldn't make the leap in investing on a beefier PC to power a Vive or Rift. PSVR was the next best option for many and taps into a console that was plenty powerful at the time and more critically, was familiar to a wide swath of developers with a focused vision.
For PSVR2, another headset that keeps the price tag at the $400 ballpark and built to solely tap into the PS5's power would be the ideal area again. How much Sony can squeeze into that price tag while retaining a profit is the mystery for me and why I'm keeping expectations on the low side* for me.
*All I need are new move controllers that break free from this PS3 era stuff.