Realistically, what can be done about the scalper problem and gaming?

Symphony · Dec 17, 2020

Realistically nothing, retailers selling the products don't care who they sell it to, you'd need Sony to get super pissed that it was giving them negative PR. And even then, are they really going to spend time and money implementing and enforcing a purchase limit to goods they sell just for one product from one company? Very doubtful, I've experienced the hell of trying to get a big company to get their website team to make sensible and easy changes for third party sellers using the platform and it is an impossible task.

Beyond that, scalpers themselves will always exist as long as there is room to make money. As long as consumers are willing to pay over the odds because they won't wait, they'll never go away. A product can sell well and have limited supply as long as nobody is willing to pay over RRP.

Deleted member 41178 · Dec 17, 2020

Unclebenny said:
I'm confused, you generally seem to be suggesting scalping is bad, you are in a thread whose aim is to found ways to counter it, yet you seem quite happy to admit to have been very much part of the problem.

Could you not have just not engaged in scalping in the first place? I feel, in terms of a single person's contribution to the problem, that would be the most you could have done.

Yeah scalping generally sucks, but the other side of it for me is 50% of the money I made has gone into my kids savings account and the remainder has pretty much paid for xmas with some left over.

I'm very money orientated always have been, If I can see a way to make decent legal money without hurting anyone with little to no effort or risk I'm going to do it. The worse that happens is I took a handful of consoles out of consumers hands, these aren't limited items or life saving, life improving etc. In my mind I've done no harm to anyone.

Baked Pigeon · Dec 17, 2020

I don't know what the solution is but I'm definitely not in support of anything that prevents a free and open market. Maybe a lottery system for the first few months?

Favi · Dec 17, 2020

NeuralProxy said:
Be patient and stop buying unnecessary stuff at inflated prices.

They're luxury items, and they're not unique events (like concerts and similar events). Companies take advantage of scarcity marketing, don't see why individuals shouldn't.

Yup. As long as there's people willing to buy it for those prices, there'll be people selling it. It's a capitalism core characteristic. There's nothing you can do besides waiting for more copies to be manufactured.

If this was for a unique event, like you said, things get a little more complicated, but for mass produced products, it's just a matter of waiting until it gets to a price you think is worth it (and that may even be below retail).

ThreepQuest64 · Dec 17, 2020

Need to buy via Xbox/Sony account and only one console per account. Other retailers/online shops could either work with waiting queues or implement an account login (of Xbox/Sony) on their sites as well.

This, however, would require MS/Sony and other sellers to care, though. But as long as they get the dollars they couldn't care less.

tmarg · Dec 17, 2020

I don't buy at launch, so it hasn't affected me, but if I were sony or ms I would do something like giving anyone who has been subscribed to their online services for 3 years a code for a guaranteed purchase. At least you'd be able to get them into the hands of your biggest fans, and the people who are probably going to support launch software the best.

metal · Dec 17, 2020

Make it illegal on the big reselling sites like ebay. Hold ebay accountable for it. Don't actually go after the individual scalpers though as that gets messy.

Scalpers will be forced to sell locally. Would still be a problem but not nearly as bad. Wouldn't be as lucrative.

cowbanana · Dec 17, 2020

Meditate and cleanse your body of FOMO. Practice the ancient mysterious art of Patience, lost to time and rampant consumerism. Then you will be ready and eventually you'll be allowed to open your wallet and buy what your true heart desires.

zuf · Dec 17, 2020

RolandOfGilead said:
It's got nothing to do with being pleased about it, the thread was how do you stop it happening.

I never intended to start selling them and never expected to make as much as I did on the first one, after that it's easy money with no risk and very little effort. I'm just explaining why I can see some people are buying dozens of them.

I've got friends that re-sell trainers and make an absolute fortune, I can now understand why they do it.

If people stopped buying them above retail there would be no market for them.

Driving around, picking off stock and selling big ticket items does sound like a bit of effort and risky, especially if you are using eBay.

The scalping with these consoles just feels especially shitty this time. On one hand some people have no money and are trying to make ends meet and then others are paying £1,200 for little Timmy's Christmas present and will probably in debt next month.

Sarcastico · Dec 17, 2020

Prohibit the re-sale of these items on sites like eBay for a specified amount of time after launch.

RogerL · Dec 17, 2020

Market economy, clearly some are willing to pay $1000 for it.

Shops used the wrong price for their first units (or were mandated to use MSRP - Manufacturer Suggested Retail Price), or want to climb the price reduction ladder fast.

If you do not want a console at scalper prices, just wait...

tokkun · Dec 17, 2020

Ocean said:
That being said: scalping is not a problem that needs fixing. For any product, if supply can't keep up with demand there will be a shortage. And wherever there is a shortage, first units wind up in the hands of those willing (and able) to pay the most. This is just an economic reality, and you'll find this listed in *any* beginner's Econ textbook as the predictable outcome.

Mainstream economics generally does view scalping as a problem, because the scalper is a middleman who takes profits without adding any value to the transaction, thereby making the market less efficient.

For market-based systems, a preferred solution would be for the producers (e.g. Sony, Microsoft) to raise prices until supply and demand are in equilibrium. That is considered better because when the profits go back to the producers, they can reinvest them in production or distribution, which can help to alleviate the shortage. When the profits go to scalpers it may actually make the shortage worse, because it encourages more scalpers to come in and buy up supply.

The challenge with raising prices on the producer side is that consumers get angry about this, and companies don't want the bad PR. For instance people recently got mad about MSI selling graphics cards on eBay for high prices. Uber has also taken a lot of flak for its surge pricing in the past.

cowbanana · Dec 17, 2020

Personally I want an RTX3080 and a 5900X, but no units are available around here. So I just wait. Scalpers are shitty, but they are also directly enabled by the people with the least patience who yell the loudest about wanting their material goods now!

I'm just waiting a while until the madness subsides. I'm not going to take part in the madness.

clickKunst · Dec 17, 2020

Regulation is the last thing retailers want and I hope they move to enforce more sensible protections against bots along with quantity limits on their platforms. I'm not sure why anyone should be in a rush to buy a PS5 right now so I'd just recommend patience.

Unclebenny · Dec 17, 2020

RolandOfGilead said:
Yeah scalping generally sucks, but the other side of it for me is 50% of the money I made has gone into my kids savings account and the remainder has pretty much paid for xmas with some left over.

I'm very money orientated always have been, If I can see a way to make decent legal money without hurting anyone with little to no effort or risk I'm going to do it. The worse that happens is I took a handful of consoles out of consumers hands, these aren't limited items or life saving, life improving etc. In my mind I've done no harm to anyone.

Scalping is never going to hurt anyone in a major way but it does price people out of experiences. I'd say its a bigger issue for tickets, since they are inherently limited in number and scalping can drag the price up beyond reasonable means.

Still, you must be aware that you are dragging up the price beyond what a lot of people can afford or are willing to pay and therefore limiting who can have access.

Fitts · Dec 17, 2020

Sony and Microsoft are both selling consoles directly so this shouldn't be difficult. Make them one per household, allow for backorders, and fulfill sequentially.

That's literally all you need to do. Even if someone is on a waiting list that doesn't necessarily have a fulfill date, chances are they'll stay locked into that and won't go straying to a scalper. (some will get impatient, of course)

Spiderman · Dec 17, 2020

There has to be a way to set limits.

Overall people should stop buying from scalpers too.

I Like Ginger Cats:3 · Dec 17, 2020

I was lucky to get two. One from pre-order and one lucky strike on Amazon. At the moment of my purchase on Amazon I was told my pre-order wouldn't even arrive before 2021. Funny enough they both arrived at the same day.

While I had the chance to make big bucks on it I had to restrain myself. Would it make me a scalper if I sold it with huge profit? Don't know, probably. But if funds are limited you really need to have some strong character to not fall for it, I guess, since people with money have no issues buying them.

You could argue why someone with low funds would get more than 1, 2 or even more but that is besides the point.

You can't stop this. Perhaps the big groups but not the individuals. If I look at the market over here right now you can clearly see which is who. Just some consumer who also bought 2, perhaps 3, or the kinds of people who bought more than that and have insane prices.

I ended up selling it to someone on another forum and he was willing to pay 100 euro extra for it. Since it was a tight community I was fine with that and don't feel like I ripped of someone, but still. It's just the market working, can't stop it :P

And well, since it's some demand thing I can't blame people who are good at this stuff making use of the situation. Might feel morally wrong since it's some product many people want but that's how things work. Not just with gaming related products.

Deleted member 41178 · Dec 17, 2020

zuf said:
Driving around, picking off stock and selling big ticket items does sound like a bit of effort and risky, especially if you are using eBay.

The scalping with these consoles just feels especially shitty this time. On one hand some people have no money and are trying to make ends meet and then others are paying £1,200 for little Timmy's Christmas present and will probably in debt next month.

I guess but all of the sales bar one(which was done on Ebay) have been on either facebook market place or local For Sale boards, I've carried out the actual sale in the local Police car park.

Most I've sold one for was £960 general price i've listed them for was £850.

Unclebenny said:
Scalping is never going to hurt anyone in a major way but it does price people out of experiences. I'd say its a bigger issue for tickets, since they are inherently limited in number and scalping can drag the price up beyond reasonable means.

Still, you must be aware that you are dragging up the price beyond what a lot of people can afford or are willing to pay and therefore limiting who can have access.

If it was a limited item in any way I wouldn't touch it. I've had to pay over the odds before for shows from ticket scalps and I hated it but I knew that was the only way.

This is a mass produced item which will be easily available again in a few months.

Lkr · Dec 17, 2020

maybe the manufacturers should take direct orders like apple. the corporations use scarcity to create this problem, and then we blame the individuals trying to use it to their advantage instead. we should be blaming sony/MS for being in this business so long and not being prepared for this, but they don't care as long as someone pays them for it

at the end of the day they're just toys, the anger towards scalpers with all the shit going on in the world puzzles me

CommanderCanuck · Dec 17, 2020

Do what apple does and just push out the date you get it but you can still purchase it. If people knew they were guaranteed the item even if it was a month later, they might be okay knowing it is coming rather than going after a scalper.

Alek · Dec 17, 2020

You could offer more opportunities for the most dedicated fans to pre-purchase securely. Scalping is driven by demand which is lead by the folks that are invested in the ecosystem the most.

If you were to say, offer a pre-purchase opportunity to the most active PSN users then you would cripple the demand that scalpers play off off.

Fat4all · Dec 17, 2020

time heals all wounds

Puroresu_kid · Dec 17, 2020

Selling something one owns is fine with me however using bots to drain the supply is straight up shitty.

The websites themselves need to do more to combat bots.

It annoys me that retailers do very very little to combat bots for products like this.

Odeko · Dec 17, 2020

I know this is a bit of a hot take, but I genuinely think some small amount of scalping is healthy for markets when the goods are limited. Especially things like concert tickets — it's a valuable service that there's a secondary marketplace out there for people who missed the initial sales window and are willing to pay extra to make up for it if they still really want to attend that U2 concert.

That being said, it obviously breaks down once a significant percentage of the consoles are going to scalpers rather than legitimate customers, because the scalpers have more sophisticated bots and strategies at launch than the average consumer. I'm fully on board with companies combatting that sort of institutionalized scalping, as all it does is further reduce supply.

As for real, practical solutions, I kind of like Sony's idea of sending out invitations to pre-order the console to active users in hindsight, though I think it shouldn't have been quite as much of a pure lottery. More stock allocated to things like that could help (though little Suzzie on Christmas morning hoping for her first real game console will still be out of luck)

OCD Guy · Dec 17, 2020

Unclebenny said:
So you are very much an active scalper then.

Your original message very much made it sound like you had one spare.

Yup.

He even paid £25 for notifications, is that not the crepchiefnotify thing where they charge for a "membership"?!

On topic, while you don't need eBay, etc to sell on items. By banning selling items above RRP it would certainly make it harder for the average chancer to sell. They wouldn't have Facebook marketplace, eBay, gumtree etc which are popular in the UK.

However the risk is scalping would take a more seedy underground route in terms of re-selling.

The irony in all this is the more publicity it get's the more it encourages average people to take a punt at buying a couple of units to sell on.

RolandOfGilead said:
If it was a limited item in any way I wouldn't touch it. I've had to pay over the odds before for shows from ticket scalps and I hated it but I knew that was the only way.

This is a mass produced item which will be easily available again in a few months.

If you could make an easy profit? I don't believe you. The more limited something is the more people are willing to pay. So you're saying that you prefer scalping items where you make less profit? You were making 100% profit nearly selling PS5's lol.

RolandOfGilead said:
Also drove around to a few local stores which had stock that wasn't appearing online Currys & Argos.

Then joined a notification group this cost me £25 and secured me 4 PS5's the next day.

You were driving around looking for stock, and you openly admit to paying £25 for PS5 stock notifications. It sounds like you're bordering on professional scalper, as opposed to someone that took a chance with a couple of extra units to make some money.

I personally don't believe there's good scalping and bad scalping the way you're trying to portray by saying you wouldn't buy and re-sell a ticket, but buying up loads of consoles is ok.

Not that it matters to me, I don't know you and what you do has zero affect on my life, I'm just making an observation.

the7egend · Dec 17, 2020

1. Make the usage of bots/automated scripts on online store fronts illegal and actually enforce it.
2. Stores need to enforce a strict one per customer lock on limited supply items. They can base this off card/bank/name/address and tie it to a particular SKU. After 30 Days the lock is lifted for that SKU.
3. Re-sale websites such as Craigslist and eBay need a 30 day policy, where newly released items are restricted from being listed till after 30 days of the release date.
4. Online stores need proper infrastructure to support the inrush of visitors. Be it a queuing system on site, or a signup via email that places you in a queue and they email you when you can order and give you 24 hours to place that order and that item is in a hold till you A) Order it or B) Don't and it cycles back into the supply line for the next person in the queue.
5. It's all on us to not actually buy things that are marked up this high. The fact of the matter is, they wouldn't sell them if people wouldn't buy them.

Deleted member 2834 · Dec 17, 2020

tokkun said:
Mainstream economics generally does view scalping as a problem, because the scalper is a middleman who takes profits without adding any value to the transaction, thereby making the market less efficient.

A scalper does add value by making the product available to those who are willing to pay the scalper price and who didn't get lucky in the pre-order lottery.

Hallucinations · Dec 17, 2020

Become a socialist.

oni-link · Dec 17, 2020

Yeah it's a tough one, I was hoping to get a Series S for Xmas but they're impossible to find

It's crazy to think that if you can somehow get 10 PS5's you can flip them for £200 above retail and make a cool 2k off the back of people too excited to wait

Noctis · Dec 17, 2020

Would be nice to implement in the sneaker game but it is what it is

Garryk · Dec 17, 2020

I mean it is just another facet of free enterprise; however, my state has legislation that doesn't allow you to sell event tickets (sports, concerts, etc.) above face value. People kind of get around this because legally you can't ask for more than face value, but buyers can offer more than face value.

Video Kojima · Dec 17, 2020

1. Allow guaranteed pre-orders.
2. Ask for Proof of ID for final checkout.

Deleted member 45130 · Dec 17, 2020

RolandOfGilead said:
Stop buying them for above retail price, it's just too tempting otherwise.

I've just been offered £850 for the PS5 I've been using since launch day. I've finished Miles and Demon's Souls and I have a Series X so i'm going to sell it.

I've sold a few other Series X and PS5 since launch because it's easy money.

A few PS5s and Xbox Series X. We all know that they are difficult to come by in the UK so I can't imagine it was easy as you would likely need stock notifications to get them.

Also, capitalising on FOMO and charging an absurd amount of money, so that people can potentially gift them to family is a real bad look. Whatever helps you sleep at night...

SpartaNNNN · Dec 17, 2020

Only allow in store purchases

OCD Guy · Dec 17, 2020

Video Kojima said:
1. Allow guaranteed pre-orders.

Do you mean like what Microsoft suggested? You place an order and get given a date.

If so that would be the best way forward, the issue is people get bored and frustrated with having to refresh constantly in the hope of securing a unit. If you could just order at your own leisure and put yourself in the queue it would certainly minimise the effects.

I want a series X but I'm certainly not going to keep refreshing sites, scour for stock. What would suit me is just placing an order, being given a date even if it's February and that's it.

HairyFist87 said:
A few PS5s and Xbox Series X. We all know that they are difficult to come by in the UK so I can't imagine it was easy as you would likely need stock notifications to get them.

Also, capitalising on FOMO and extorting people so they can potentially gift them to family is a real bad look. Whatever helps you sleep at night...

He was paying for notifications, similar to people joining scalping sites like CrepChiefNotify.

It's ok though, he's a good scalper. He would never buy and re-sell anything limited like tickets.

TC McQueen · Dec 17, 2020

Honestly, the only real solution is retailers setting up effective pre-order systems that collect orders ahead of time, allow them to clean out all the bot orders, and then not offering public sales until there is enough supply to fulfill all the pre-orders and public orders. Legislation isn't really going to do shit, and the only other thing that can help is weaning people off of FOMO, but that's a cultural thing that can't be legislated into existence.

Video Kojima · Dec 17, 2020

OCD Guy said:
Do you mean like what Microsoft suggested? You place an order and get given a date.

If so that would be the best way forward, the issue is people get bored and frustrated with having to refresh constantly in the hope of securing a unit. If you could just order at your own leisure and put yourself in the queue it would certainly minimise the effects.

I want a series X but I'm certainly not going to keep refreshing sites, scour for stock. What would suit me is just placing an order, being given a date even if it's February and that's it.

Yes, that's what I meant. If you can get a guaranteed date, even if its a month from now, it wouldn't be an issue for most people.

Deleted member 2834 · Dec 17, 2020

OCD Guy said:
I want a series X but I'm certainly not going to keep refreshing sites, scour for stock. What would suit me is just placing an order, being given a date even if it's February and that's it.

A scalper secures you a console without competing with others (and bots) for a console. You should be glad they exist.

Krakatoa · Dec 17, 2020

The easiest way is to allow retailers to create a queue for orders (one per person/address), so everyone can order a console day one. Retailers can then dispatch in the order they were received.

Sure you will still get scalpers that got orders from the queue selling them for a markup, but the demand will be lower as everyone knows they are getting a consoles. Basically follow Apple system.

Dyno · Dec 17, 2020

Edit: quoted the wrong person and now can't find the actual post

Eat shit scalper. I know kids whos parents didn't get their Christmas present of choice cause fuckwits like you. Sure is easy money fuckin up Christmas for the kiddies eh?

tokkun · Dec 17, 2020

Imp the Dimp said:
A scalper does add value by making the product available to those who are willing to pay the scalper price and who didn't get lucky in the pre-order lottery.

I disagree. That's not creating value. You need to factor in the fact that the scalped console would have gone to someone else.

I'll accept the argument that a service like eBay is actually adding value in the scalping process by matching buyers and sellers and doing real-time price discovery. However, the producers could just put the products on eBay directly. The scalpers aren't actually contributing anything to the transaction.

BassForever · Dec 17, 2020

carlota xbox said:
sony ms and nintendo step their shit up and offer an apple like system where you can buy the console even if it's out of stock and you just get it when it's available. this won't stop scalpers on day 1 but it completely changes the post launch dynamic.

I thought about something like that for Amazon and other online retailers, but you'd still have scalpers circumventing to buy unit after unit via loop holes. I suppose you could have some "one per address per month" to heavily restrict scalpers from buying up the backlog of consoles.

Boy · Dec 17, 2020

Allow only in store purchases for the first few months when product is released.

RoninChaos · Dec 17, 2020

HairyFist87 said:
A few PS5s and Xbox Series X. We all know that they are difficult to come by in the UK so I can't imagine it was easy as you would likely need stock notifications to get them.

Also, capitalising on FOMO and extorting people so they can potentially gift them to family is a real bad look. Whatever helps you sleep at night...

That's not extortion.

Molecule · Dec 17, 2020

Expecting people to not buy from them is like voting with your wallet. That's not gonna do anything. Something has to be done from the manufacturer and retail side of things. Limit orders to one per address? Have a proper queue system and maybe send an invitation to to buying the new product to those registered as having bought the previous product so they can be ahead of the line. There's lots of things that could be done. I don't know if any of it will get done.

entremet · Dec 17, 2020

It's a once in a near decade problem.

dunkzilla · Dec 17, 2020

Creepy Woody said:
I don't think Sony themselves care. Why would they, they are selling.

Best thing I can think of without an on-going waiting list is this dumb thing:

- 6 months to launch, Sony announce the next console.

- You require a PSN account with 9 months of activity to secure a pre-order. (So even if you just got a PS5 near end of life, became invested, wanted to upgrade, you can).

- Even if scalpers make an account in this moment, by the time it is eligible for them to get one, it'll be 3 months into its release and there will be more inventory for stores anyway.

-This will allow the people who really want one and are invested in PS to get one, people who just became invested in PS to be able to get one, and fresh scalpers have to wait until stock is more plentiful anyway.

I'm sure there are some scalpers already with a PSN account from some stage of their life, but it may stop some of them.

This is an awful idea to be honest. You basically want to lock people out that might be buying their first console or are switching platforms.

Kill3r7 · Dec 17, 2020

Nothing. Same as concerts, sporting events, sneakers etc.

Things like PS Direct help but they cannot control other retailers/distributors.

entremet · Dec 17, 2020

Kill3r7 said:
Nothing. Same as concerts, sporting events, sneakers etc.

Concerts/sports are constrained by arenas/venues.

Sneakers is purely manufactured lol.

Realistically, what can be done about the scalper problem and gaming?

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