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Read the emails between Epic and Apple that led to Fortnite’s App Store ban
- Thread starter Dalek
- Start date
It's basically the equivalent if the console manufacturers made you pay for the dev kits, take the 30% cut, and continuously charge the bigger guy thousands per year all at once.
Apple's development tools and documentation are free.
The paid Developer Program gives you access to additional resources, such as access limited to Apple developer support, certificates to sign your apps, and the ability to publish them on the App Store.
Yea this ain't a good look. Epic really thinks their video game is going to force Apple to completely change their App Store? It's theirs. Their rules. Don't like it: Go elsewhere.
I love games too, but c'mon, stick with your strengths. Spit out some skins for 10$ and make billions.
I mean, they have the best lawyers money can buy. I expect a masterclass at every turn and would be disappointed otherwise.
you still need a Mac, a separate fee for yearly license to publish, and get 30% taken.
that's not free based on the first two alone especially for many shops that are windows by default.
they've made money well before you start developing.
Purchasing the hardware to develop on and a simple subscription are business write-offs.
And you believe that their $99/$299 annual fee is sufficient compensation? I just want to be clear.
If we're going to get into "yeah, but you need to buy a Mac" territory with it, that's where things start getting to be a bit of a stretch, because if that's the case, there's no such thing as "free" app development in the first place, no matter what platform you're using or developing for.
No. I just think they should drop the $99/$299 and release an official cross compiler for Windows as well as an official iOS simulator for windows or drop the royalty fee to 20%
I feel like this is a pedantic view. If Microsoft says product X is free do we really need to point out the associated equipment costs to run X on a machine running Windows?
Yea, this... Visual Studio Code is free. I'm not counting the computer/monitor/equipment costs to run the thing.
Yeah but now you're going beyond the statement that the developer tools are free. Going by that you could also say Microsoft makes you pay for Windows before you can make apps for it. It's a significant move of the goalposts.
Call it what you want, I suppose.
you do not actually need windows to develop for windows.
also microsoft only gets $200 for windows (unless you buy MS official hardware) whereas Apple gets several thousand dollars.
Apple ties their software are to their hardware, and it'll be even worse with the transition to arm for macOS.
From Epic's email:
As a consumer just speaking for myself: That's why I use iOS. I don't want to have 75 different store-fronts to download and install apps on my phone. I don't want to have to continually give each developer my payment credentials and hope they don't store shit in plain text files. I prefer and trust Apple to handle that shit over random devs.
You need some form of hardware to develop anything. So by that logic regardless of what the hardware is or which company makes it: There's technically an associated cost for development.
As a consumer just speaking for myself: That's why I use iOS. I don't want to have 75 different store-fronts to download and install apps on my phone. I don't want to have to continually give each developer my payment credentials and hope they don't store shit in plain text files. I prefer and trust Apple to handle that shit over random devs.
You need some form of hardware to develop anything. So by that logic regardless of what the hardware is or which company makes it: There's technically an associated cost for development.
The Epic guy really comes across as a moron here. The Apple representative outlines in detail why Apple feels entitled to take a cut of sales on the App Store (they provide free dev tools, access to a marketplace, etc) then Sweeney hits back with "Apple thinks that they can control sales on a device just because they make them!" Uh, no, trying actually reading their email.
Pretty fucking hilarious that, as the Apple guy points out, Epic does the same exact thing they're claiming makes Apple immoral. Really struggling to see how Sweeney convinced himself this was a good idea.
Pretty fucking hilarious that, as the Apple guy points out, Epic does the same exact thing they're claiming makes Apple immoral. Really struggling to see how Sweeney convinced himself this was a good idea.
I ain't mad at em, lol. Epic wants money. They see the 30% cut as Apple "taking" from what's theirs as opposed to the 70% being what they can make because Apple put an ecosystem there for them to use.
Epic's request is to have multiple digital storefronts on iOS. That impacts every user of iOS devices. So my view isn't that this doesn't matter. It does to me since I would prefer not to have to give my credit card info to every random dev's storefront. But that's just me.
I agree I'm indifferent to whatever cut Apple takes and Epic gets. But fuck no I don't want iOS app experience to look like a 1997 AOL Homepage.
Yup...
Very weird to see corporate cheerleading here in favor of Apple.
They are cheap as fuck. And it's only an account you need. All the tools are free after you have an account.
Read through Apple's response and man, is it scathing. Constantly whipping Tim's words back at him.
What happened to the argument that Apple doesn't require use of their payment processing system for non-games, though? Strangely absent from all of the back and forth, but I felt it was amongst the strongest points Epic had against Apple.
I still think Apple is in bigger trouble here, but it's more likely to me that Epic loses this.
What happened to the argument that Apple doesn't require use of their payment processing system for non-games, though? Strangely absent from all of the back and forth, but I felt it was amongst the strongest points Epic had against Apple.
I still think Apple is in bigger trouble here, but it's more likely to me that Epic loses this.
Ehhhh wouldn't call 99$ cheap. But in their defense, dev accounts had been free up until around two or three years ago, iirc. Right around when I got out of the jailbreak/iOS scene.
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$99 a year isn't cheap?
Maybe it's because I'm involved with Salesforce licenses but that's dirt cheap in comparison.
Why do people keep spinning this narrative? Both companies are shitty and they're going to war over who gets a cut of the billions. One of them is showing its ass to the world, pushing propaganda to kids, trying to create a publicity stunt, and overall acting like a complete baby so we are *relishing* in that. Fuck both companies, but nobody can deny how funny it is to see Tim Sweeney's hypocritical, lying ass getting absolutely exposed right now. It's an amazing byproduct of such a stupid corporate slapfight.
I'm developing an iOS app on a free developer account just now. I won't be able to publish onto the App Store until I can upgrade to a paid account, but I'm able to side load my app onto my iPhone in the meantime.
$99 is really cheap compared to what it is elsewhere. People seem to want Apple to provide a popular platform, host apps without a fee, and eat any development costs, which is ridiculous.
I understand that. I'm not saying he's stupid for wanting more money, I'm saying his emails read like he's doing some combination of being disingenuous (ironic considering the lame 'only a lawyer' comment) and/ or having extremely poor reading comprehension. I'm not mad at anyone involved either, but after reading Apple's emails I at least have a very clear understanding of where they're coming from. Sweeney's emails in contrast seem childish. He doesn't seem to have much a point beyond "I want more money. Now."
This is what Tim Sweeney gets for not realizing he's the head of a corporation as he spews his utter bullshit onto Twitter. Even if my lowest corporate positions that I've held, I've heard at least one person at each company say, "write your emails as if they'll end up in front of a judge one day".
After reading the emails...I'm not sure who is planning all this at Epic but I see Sweeney taking a longgggg vacation
Last I heard, XCode was free and freely available on the Mac App Store.
The argument that you need to pay Apple for an Mac to develop on is stupid. You need to pay for hardware to develop on regardless. You need to pay for hardware to design on. Like what argument is that for.
The argument that you need to pay Apple for an Mac to develop on is stupid. You need to pay for hardware to develop on regardless. You need to pay for hardware to design on. Like what argument is that for.
both are shitty, but only one is attempting to act like it's a ragtag group of freedom fighters sacrificing for everyone's freedom
But that's a key distinction. There's a pretty significant difference from the hardware required to develop can be bought from any vendor or if it's only available and required by the manufacturer of the development platform. Businesses most certainly account for that when looking at their business platform. You can be sure when developers are creating PS5 and Xbox Series X games that the requirement and cost of the development kit is most certainly factored in to Sony and Microsoft's business model.
It's ironic that Tim Sweeney of all fucking people would write this email which paints Epic as some kind of low tier dev in dire need of money to better support his staff.
Even if Apple would relinquish the entirety of that 30% to Epic, his staff wouldn't see the color of any sort of extra income, betting my head on this.
The sheer balls it takes to write it like that, fuck off to the core of the earth lmao.
Even if Apple would relinquish the entirety of that 30% to Epic, his staff wouldn't see the color of any sort of extra income, betting my head on this.
The sheer balls it takes to write it like that, fuck off to the core of the earth lmao.
Someone needs to ban Sweeney from engaging in any form of external communication on behalf of the company. I know I shouldn't be sympathetic to the 2 trillion USD company, but Epic come across as huge douchebags in this particular instance - especially when you consider the fact that they've been only too happy themselves to hound developers for misappropriating their IP in the past.
On one hand, I would love to see tim brought down a peg and be humbled but on the other hand I would also like to see tim being brought down a few pegs as well. Fuck Tim.
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Jobs would've absolutely and personally pressed the "uninstall Fortnite from every iOS device" button the moment that Fortnite 1984 video went up. He would've gone Dr Manhattan on Epic.
Yup, this is very common in many workplaces. I was told at my one job, in no uncertain terms, "if you wanna blow off steam, that's what the break room is for. Emails and the company intranet are, for all intents and purposes, only private until someone asks to see them."
I'd say that, when it comes to understanding such a basic principle, you should be able to expect nothing less but an absence of personal agenda from a CEO, but he's a video game company CEO, so I instead expect less than nothing.
It really is cheap when you take into consideration the resources you get access to with said subscription.
Don't care for Sweeney but I can understand why people are entertained by this fuck up by him.
Should you be forced to have a Mac to develop iOS apps?
The only use of Mac in this scenario is the Mac-specific app that you must use to develop for ipad or iphone.
Or did I get it wrong?
Should you to be forced to get a development kit for XBOX, PS or Nintendo to develop and test out their games?
People in this thread would have been cheering for Microsoft in the 90s and 00s.
"They give internet explorer for free. We should be thanking them"
"Forcing pc makers to conform to standards is better for us all"
"MS makes great products and deserves their market share"
"Merging of Windows and IE are the result of innovation and competition. The two are inextricably linked and consumers and developers reap the benefits"
"They give internet explorer for free. We should be thanking them"
"Forcing pc makers to conform to standards is better for us all"
"MS makes great products and deserves their market share"
"Merging of Windows and IE are the result of innovation and competition. The two are inextricably linked and consumers and developers reap the benefits"
Ok, here is the problem with your question.
Android studio supports all platforms. You don't need to switch the OS to design for Android Phones.
With Apple, they don't make multiplatform on purpose, so that you would have to entangle yourself with the MacOS if you want to be the iOS developer.
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One of Apple's rules is that you cannot mention in the app that you must go to a url to buy something. If Epic said "Click HERE to purchase VBucks" and it led you out of the app to Safari that's a violation of their rules and the major sticking point for developers. All developers would rather do it that way to avoid paying Apple anything at all.
The ComiXology app allows you to browse content and read purchased content. But if you want to actually buy content you have to visit their site on Safari. The App won't allow you to purchase the content because Amazon doesn't want Apple to get anything from that transaction.
because they can't get accidental purchases with daddy's credit card that way. /s
for serious though: that method would increase consumer frustration and would hurt their income more than pulling this stunt. Disabling the ability to purchase directly in app and make the end user jump through hoops would be very bad for the bottom line.
Again that's a choice of theirs as well as many other companies in the industries, why do we need to feel like we need to force their hand to support Windows.
Granted 30% is a big cut so I can understand some app developers hurting but Epic needs to shut the fuckup.