RDR2 lacks mission freedom.

[Alienous]

Yes, it's a stark contrast to the agency in their open world.

I found it OK once I leaned into playing it like an actor following a script. Not really concerning myself with character directions like 'Hey Arthur, let's go check out that barn', but paying attention to the 'Follow Charles' text instead. Most missions amount to interactive cutscenes, really - you just get through them to see the cutscene at the end.

 

[WordsintheWater]

Why can't you accept an open world game with linear missions? I mean there's plenty of other examples of it. Spider Man, the Batman Arkham games, Forza Horizon, all have missions where you basically can't deviate even slightly from the task or its execution.

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Spider-Man and Batman have way more player freedom in the main missions than this game does, it's not even close.

 

[Deleted member 8777]

Spider-Man and Batman have way more player freedom in the main missions than this game does, it's not even close.

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Those stealth missions in Spider Man are more restrictive than anything in Red Dead. I guess that should have destroyed the game for me completely, since it's such a stark disconnect. But not really. I enjoyed it all the same.

 

[WordsintheWater]

Those stealth missions in Spider Man are more restrictive than anything in Red Dead. I guess that should have destroyed the game for me completely, since it's such a stark disconnect. But not really. I enjoyed it all the same.

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Difference is every mission in RDR2 is restrictive, whereas Spider-Man a select few are. And no those missions are not more restrictive.

 

[Richter1887]

The first time this really hit me was quite early in the game.

Spoiler: early side mission spoiler

I was going to arrest a "healer" selling poison and I snuck up on him ready to pounce. However the game had other ideas and instead of fighting I had to talk and "be fooled" and let him run away to generate a chase. This pissed me off, but then during the chase I could see the game "cheating" to make sure I didn't catch him before the game wanted. This has also been the case in other missions and it might actually be my biggest issue with the game. I _hate_ when the game cheats to make it's own goals, i.e. a horse you are chasing is running just fast enough so that you can't catch them and matches pace so if you slow down the horse in front slows down etc. Grrr...

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Are you talking about the bounty mission? If it is then the same thing happened to me. It was then I knew that this game will not improve and sadly I was right.

 

[Damerman]

Mgsv is the penultimate open world game. Rdr 2 should have learned from MGSV and breath of the wild.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

Difference is every mission in RDR2 is restrictive, whereas Spider-Man a select few are. And no those missions are not more restrictive.

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What agency do you have in those missions?

Mgsv is the penultimate open world game. Rdr 2 should have learned from MGSV and breath of the wild.

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Notice the main similarity between the two.

The non existent story.

 

[CRIMSON-XIII]

This is what people mean when they say that RockStar Gameplay can still innovate. IMO, the best open world freedom recently came from Horizon, Spider Man, Witcher 3, and Assassins Creed Odyssey

 

[tyfon]

Are you talking about the bounty mission? If it is then the same thing happened to me. It was then I knew that this game will not improve and sadly I was right.

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That is correct!
It was probably the point for me too where I started to go from "hype! hype! hype!" to.. "nooooo..."

 

[Alienous]

Those stealth missions in Spider Man are more restrictive than anything in Red Dead. I guess that should have destroyed the game for me completely, since it's such a stark disconnect. But not really. I enjoyed it all the same.

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The stealth missions in Spider-Man are a small part of the game and widely criticised.

Red Dead Redemption 2's rigidity extends to almost every mission in the game. If you have to enter a house you have to do it through the door the game wants you to. If you have to take cover you often have to take cover at a specific point designated by the game. There are very few times where you can choose between stealth or combat. It isn't nearly on the same level.

 

[Neutra]

you know the big bank shoot-out around the middle of the game? stuck inside the bank, you have to stick dynamite to the wall, jump behind the counter and shoot the dynamite to escape. but what if you've used every single round of ammo shooting the guys outside the bank? you could try to get killed by those guys but they rarely hit you. this happened to me and i just had to reload a save and and remember to not use all my ammo up next time. sometimes this game has legitimately terrible design.

 

[Lothars]

It has a considerable well documented input lag, thats not weight.

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Meh it doesn't matter, still doesn't control bad.

 

[Falconbox]

Every Rockstar game is this way, the problem is expecting anything different than the formula they've been executing for 20 years.

Clearly it works for a lot of people, I wouldn't mind a change myself, but for me it didn't change my enjoyment of RDR2 in any way because I was a huge fan of RDR1 and the game delivered on what I wanted from a sequel, I didn't have unrealistic expectations about the mission design.

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Not a single Rockstar game ever promised mission freedom in the first place. It was never what they were going for.

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Yeah, at this point if the stuff bothers players that much, then maybe Rockstar games just aren't for them. That's perfectly ok, not every game can be for everybody.

But clearly it's good enough for the majority of players, considering the continued massive success and stellar review scores for every game.

 

[WordsintheWater]

What agency do you have in those missions?

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Where did I say you have agency in those missions? All I said is that they are not more restrictive, they're the same. Shit I'd take a few restrictive main missions like that over all the main story missions being like that.

In all of Spider-Man's main missions there is way more freedom and agency than in RDR2's main missions.

 

[Alienous]

Meh it doesn't matter, still doesn't control bad.

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Not even relatively speaking? I spent more time in the options trying to make the game feel 'right' than I've had to do with any other game this console generation.

 

[Deleted member 8777]

The stealth missions in Spider-Man are a small part of the game and widely criticised.

Red Dead Redemption 2's rigidity extends to almost every mission in the game. If you have to enter a house, you have to do it through the door the game wants you. If you have to take cover you often have to take cover at a specific point designated by the game. There are very few times where you can choose between stealth or combat. It isn't nearly on the same level.

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Obviously not but the way I'm understanding the argument is that the linearity of the missions in Red Dead is immersion breaking or something. That's why I'm wondering why it's so egregious when you have very linear missions in an otherwise gigantic and decently interactive open world.

 

[Lyng]

What agency do you have in those missions?



Notice the main similarity between the two.

The non existent story.

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Witcher 3 also gives you far more options and freedom in how to approach story missions. And that is a very story driven game.
RDR2's Mission Design is archaic and completely at odds with the freedom they want you to believe you have.

 

[Bane]

Wait, why are people now criticizing a thread for going over well worn territory? Where were you when all the Astro Bot threads were happening?

 

[Mass_Pincup]

In all of Spider-Man's main missions there is way more freedom and agency than in RDR2's main missions.

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And I found it to be a detriment to the game because you end up doing the same thing and having the same agency throughout the game, making it repetitive to me.

It's basically two different design philosophies with each having benefits and trade off.

It's a bit weird to see people coming down on RDR2 for this.

 

[Youngfossil]

Meh it doesn't matter, still doesn't control bad.

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Input lag is objectively bad controls. Why are you even trying to defend this? I love the game and beat it. but the controls where easily the worst part and the only reason im considering double dipping for the eventual PC version

 

[Lyng]

Yeah, at this point if the stuff bothers players that much,

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And I found it to be a detriment to the game because you end up doing the same thing and having the same agency throughout the game, making it repetitive to me.

It's basically two different design philosophies with each having benefits and trade off.

It's a bit weird to see people coming down on RDR2 for this.

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Please explain the benefit to removing player agency?

 

[Deleted member 8777]

Witcher 3 also gives you far more options and freedom in how to approach story missions. And that is a very story driven game.
RDR2's Mission Design is archaic and completely at odds with the freedom they want you to believe you have.

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It's dialogue driven. Red Dead 2 is obviously going for a cinematic feeling instead. Not really comparable.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

Witcher 3 also gives you far more options and freedom in how to approach story missions. And that is a very story driven game.
RDR2's Mission Design is archaic and completely at odds with the freedom they want you to believe you have.

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Most of the story is told through cutscenes in TW3, whereas a good portion of RDR2's story is delivered through those missions.

 

[kingPaPi]

Horrible controls and gun play

Terrible mission design

Imo the most overrated game since the last rockstar game

 

[Lothars]

Not even relatively speaking? I spent more time in the options trying to make the game feel 'right' than I've had to do with any other game this console generation.

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Nope it's fine to have issues with the controls but calling them bad is wrong, I've enjoyed the controls the whole game but I understand why someone may not like them.

 

[RespectThySole]

Is there an open world game with less player agency than RDR2? Because I certainly can't think of one.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

Please explain the benefit to removing player agency?

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Because you end up with a carefully crafted story told through gameplay and memorable set pieces.

 

[Doom_Bringer]

This is an issue with the new GTA games as well right? I remember one of the best things about GTA3/Vice City/SA was the ability to do missions multiple ways. IDK what R* was thinking

 

[TheRaidenPT]

Yes, Uncharted 4 director agrees with you

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Aye and he's right.. You can fail a mission by trying to tactically flank someone

 

[PlanetSmasher]

My favorite example is in a mission near the end of the game. Dutch asks you to "take cover behind those crates" when you're on a dock covered in crates. The yellow spot on the map is HUGE and encompasses a very large area, but the mission will only progress if you hide behind a very, very specific pair of crates.

I spent five minutes taking cover behind every single box in the little area I was hiding in, with Dutch yelling at me (like 50 different ways, no less! they recorded so many variations on the "no, THOSE crates!" line) before the game finally was like "okay you found the right one we can progress now".

I really like the game, but the story missions needed to be more flexible.

 

[Deleted member 3017]

Mgsv is the penultimate open world game. Rdr 2 should have learned from MGSV and breath of the wild.

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MGSV/BotW and RDR2 are all open world games, but polar opposites in terms of design philosophy. Games like BotW and MGS sacrifice narrative for pure freedom. RDR sacrifices freedom (in story missions) for pure narrative. I actually think both types of open world games could learn some things from the other.

 

[WordsintheWater]

Obviously not but the way I'm understanding the argument is that the linearity of the missions in Red Dead is immersion breaking or something. That's why I'm wondering why it's so egregious when you have very linear missions in an otherwise gigantic and decently interactive open world.

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It's not about having linear missions in an open world game it's about the restrictions they impose in those missions. I love it when open world games have linear missions, I enjoy linear games more, but don't restrict me to the point where I can't do simple things like flank without having my mission end. It's a balancing act and it's clear that Rockstar didn't find the correct balance.

 

[JaseMath]

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Came to post this. He's not wrong.

 

[Alienous]

Obviously not but the way I'm understanding the argument is that the linearity of the missions in Red Dead is immersion breaking or something. That's why I'm wondering why it's so egregious when you have very linear missions in an otherwise gigantic and decently interactive open world.

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One thing Red Dead Redemption 2 struggles with is having 'natural' failstates for missions. Instead of creating a context for your inability to do something the game just puts up a virtual barrier and fails you if you cross it. It's not 'If you get spotted this sniper will cut you down', it's 'If you get spotted - FAILED - "Arthur got spotted"'.

It would be difficult because the open world itself allows a lot of freedom, but open world games have been able to allow more gameplay agency (such as in Watch Dogs 2) without harsh failstates. Rockstar Games just prioritize telling a tightly controlled story over one where maybe you don't go through the front door and your ally doesn't get to say their line.

 

[Falconbox]

Please explain the benefit to removing player agency?

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It's been mentioned already in this thread (as well as the several other threads on this issue).

Tightly focused story missions, directed and crafted in a rigid way, better sets up excellent cinematic setpiece moments. The Braithwaite Manor mission was already mentioned earlier in this thread. You don't get that moment of the entire gang walking up to the mansion (one of my favorite moments in any game this generation) if you're allowed to just wander around and try to flank the mansion from the back.

 

[Van Bur3n]

IMO, the best open world freedom recently came from Horizon

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That game has both boring quests and a boring open world that is far too static to enjoy whatever amount of freedom it has to offer. Especially for a game that claims to be a RPG, because for an open world RPG, it's even worse.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Why can't you accept an open world game with linear missions? I mean there's plenty of other examples of it. Spider Man, the Batman Arkham games, Forza Horizon, all have missions where you basically can't deviate even slightly from the task or its execution.

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I actually like the way Red Dead handles its missions. I'm just saying that there's a difference expectations of a mission when it comes to a linear game and an open-world game. In Uncharted, with the exception of something like the Western Ghats in Lost Legacy, you're always being guided. There's no place for you to really go off and do something on your own for hours. As such there's really no expectation from the player that they can just approach things how they want since the game is already guiding them.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

That game has both boring quests and a boring open world that is far too static to enjoy whatever amount of freedom it has to offer.

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This is how I feel too. Yeah, there is technical freedom but there's literally no reward for it.

By comparison, MGSV has a terrible open world, but it lets you tackle missions any way you want and you feel awesome when you finish a mission in a really stupid or ridiculous way.

 

[Falconbox]

Most of the story is told through cutscenes in TW3, whereas a good portion of RDR2's story is delivered through those missions.

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^

 

[King_Moc]

Yeah dude, this has been like a central criticism of the game since day one

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Not really, seeing as it's just one of many issues that most reviews decided to just skip over.

 

[Deleted member 3017]

It's been mentioned already in this thread (as well as the several other threads on this issue).

Tightly focused story missions, directed and crafted in a rigid way, better sets up excellent cinematic setpiece moments. The Braithwaite Manor mission was already mentioned earlier in this thread. You don't get that moment of the entire gang walking up to the mansion (one of my favorite moments in any game this generation) if you're allowed to just wander around and try to flank the mansion from the back.

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I think RDR2's problem is there are many moments that limit the player without a payoff like this. When you're engaged in a shootout, but the fail the mission if you try a slightly different approach or you're asked to travel to a destination, but fail if you veer slightly off the main path, that's not servicing the narrative or the overall experience. I think most players are ok with a game limiting their options if it actually results in a great setpiece moment like you've described above.

 

[Oghuz]

And that is not necessarily a bad thing. I loved GTAV for the same reason.

Plenty of open world games that give you more agency in its missions ended up being really boring to me. Main example is MGSV. I felt so disconnected with its world, characters and story, I was just done with that game within 10 hours. Gameplay alone is simply not enough to carry a game for me.

 

[Deleted member 8777]

It's not about having linear missions in an open world game it's about the restrictions they impose in those missions. I love it when open world games have linear missions, I enjoy linear games more, but don't restrict me to the point where I can't do simple things like flank without having my mission end. It's a balancing act and it's clear that Rockstar didn't find the correct balance.

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I agree with you that Rockstar has a ton of room for improvement when it comes to trusting the player or even putting more effort into creating missions that feel more organic and not on rails. But at the same time there are few other open world games that even approach the level of production and cinematic spectacle this game offers in its story missions. It makes sense why it's the way it is. It has room for improvement for sure that being said.

 

[Big G]

You know all those big open-world games where all of the early missions are tutorials? RDR2 is like that, except it does it for the entire game. Every single mission feels like a tutorial.

 

[Van Bur3n]

What agency do you have in those missions?

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Basically just stealthy approach or not. A minimal amount of freedom during a mission that is the same for a lot of other games as well (Horizon Zero Dawn, for example, that I mentioned earlier).

RDR2 actually has some missions offer that level of freedom with its approach as well between stealth and full confrontation. The oilfield mission with the Eagle Flies comes to mind. A couple of other missions as well, but they make up a minority.

 

[CRIMSON-XIII]

That game has both boring quests and a boring open world that is far too static to enjoy whatever amount of freedom it has to offer. Especially for a game that claims to be a RPG, because for an open world RPG, it's even worse.

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Yeah well,,,

you could trap enemies and deal with them how you wanted. If i remember correctly. I didnt get a game over for going behind X tree or Y rock or going left over right. I remember each fight felt different. (ive heard the easier modes have the enemies more tame too and not as wild and authentic like).

This was the point of the thread right? Freedom in gameplay. Of course you can think the story and the gameplay is bad.

You know RDR2 as described above, especially in some missions where you auto game over by not doing what the game wants you to do is less freedom than some tasks in Horizon?

maybe my memory is foggy though. And you get game overs in Horizon just by walking out of area during mission.

 

[Deleted member 3017]

You know all those big open-world games where all of the early missions are tutorials? RDR2 is like that, except it does it for the entire game. Every single mission feels like a tutorial.

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This is so true. I was recently pretty baffled during one mission that taught me about purchasing firearms from the gunsmith ...15 or so hours after the gunsmith was available for me in the open world. I understand tutorializing certain aspects of the main story path, but it feels like Rockstar has absolutely zero confidence in the player's ability to figure out basic elements of their game.

 

[DJChuy]

No one else has made this commentary before certainly...

Worth noting there was a mission towards the later portion where there's a dude on a gatling style machine gun. So I thought... okay sure I'll go around the back of this train and surprise him from behind.

As soon as I crossed the train tracks: MISSION FAILED.

Instead the game wanted me to idiotically and brazenly run up directly down the middle. I was so frustrated that I seemingly for no reason lost 10 minutes of progress - shut down the game for that day.

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Lol I had the same thought in that mission - trying to attack from behind. That was some BS.

Your AI partners dying is also wack.

 

[Deleted member 198]

And that is not necessarily a bad thing. I loved GTAV for the same reason.

Plenty of open world games that give you more agency in its missions ended up being really boring to me. Main example is MGSV. I felt so disconnected with its world, characters and story, I was just done with that game within 10 hours. Gameplay alone is simply not enough to carry a game for me.

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A game doesn't have to be open world for it to have open mission design.

 

[Commodore64]

One mission where this really stands out if a bounty mission near the end of the game where this guy is camping with his family. If you decide to let him go it's game over. If you decide to shoot his wife there's an entire dialogue that happens on the ride to jail. If you shoot his wife twice it's game over because you spooked his son.....What? It like if the systems don't have a narrative branch to what you're doing in any mission it's a hard game over. Very strange design choice.