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uzipukki

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,722
I still don't understand why NVIDIA needs permission to begin with?
In all honesty, they most likely don't need permission. They aren't modifying or trying to profit from the games, per se. They are profiting off of the hardware that is used to play the games. But they don't want to make them liable to lawsuits that, while they might win, would still cost money and time and make them burn bridges with devs/pubs.
 

SlickShoes

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,770
So what happens if I set up a Windows VM on AWS and use it to play games? Will the developers be actively stopping me from running their games on virtual hardware?

All GeForce now is, is me connecting to a server in a big warehouse and logging in to my steam library(or whatever launcher) and installing the game I have already purchased on that device. The game is never ON the Geforce Now service, it's always in my steam account and I have to authenticate that to play it.

I am not going to have the same PC forever so where does this stop? hardware limits? install limits? no streaming?
 

spineduke

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,745
I don't really understand what the devs are losing in this.

they all think the big check day is coming now with all these streaming services coming online. I imagine a lot of devs are hoping for a netflix like situation , where they can pitch their game to different streaming services for limited time periods while pocketing multiple checks. not a bad tertiary business for a dev from their main game sales. something like geforce now just makes too much sense for the consumer, and while they don't have a legal argument against it, they have every financial incentive to fight it with this dream scenario.
 

Stop It

Bad Cat
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,350
Any developer who thinks they have a right to tell me where i play a legally purchased copy of a game can kiss my ass
That one right there.

I bought a copy of game xyz on Steam.

Geforce Now is paying for a remote PC to play on. Nothing else. Why Google tried to call the idea a fucking platform distinct from what it actually is, is beyond me.

Now we have developers telling us that we shouldn't be able to play our games on Steam if we play it via remote means? Do they want to ban usage of other PC to mobile streaming solutions because that's all this actually is? Who cares that the PC being played on isn't owned by the person and rented as part of a service.

Christ some people literally want to create problems for gaming rather than actually further the industry. Jfc.
 

Static

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,108
but geforce now is still ostensibly a paid service (i know there's a free tier, but it being locked to an hour feels more like a trial than anything? i don't really know how that hour limit works) and the selling point is the library it has access too. i don't think asking developers permission to host their games through that service is too much to ask? i'm not even saying that they should be compensated, but when a company is making money off of providing greater access to your game that seems like something you should be notified of, even if it's just a blanket "hey your game is in this thing, here is a procedure if you choose to opt out"
I bought their game. Their role in the transaction should be done. Where I install it or who I pay to rent me hardware is none of their business.
 

uzipukki

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,722
but geforce now is still ostensibly a paid service (i know there's a free tier, but it being locked to an hour feels more like a trial than anything? i don't really know how that hour limit works) and the selling point is the library it has access too. i don't think asking developers permission to host their games through that service is too much to ask? i'm not even saying that they should be compensated, but when a company is making money off of providing greater access to your game that seems like something you should be notified of, even if it's just a blanket "hey your game is in this thing, here is a procedure if you choose to opt out"
Only thing they are hosting, in the end, is a Windows virtual machine that a user has the ability to use. The user may opt to install a game they have bought and stream that then. Why on earth should the Dev decide if that's possible or not?

if that was the case then i don't think the game would have been removed
Or, maybe, the Dev is being a greedy SOB who want's to make the end user pay more to have the ability to play the game in a way that he might've not foreseen, but the user has all the right to do?
 

SlickShoes

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,770
Probably because nvidia could force the issue but risk destroying their relationships with devs and publishers.

That's my thinking too here, Nvidia could say Nah. But they value the relationships they currently have and are being "nice".

But if they keep going in this direction then it sets a bad precedent that you cannot access games you have already purchased remotely.
 

Stop It

Bad Cat
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,350
they all think the big check day is coming now with all these streaming services coming online. I imagine a lot of devs are hoping for a netflix like situation , where they can pitch their game to different streaming services for limited time periods while pocketing multiple checks. not a bad tertiary business for a dev from their main game sales. something like geforce now just makes too much sense for the consumer, and while they don't have a legal argument against it, they have every financial incentive to fight it with this dream scenario.
But that's different.

This is an option to stream games you already own. If people want to not buy games and have a rental service like Game Pass for streaming, that can exist too.
 

newmoneytrash

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,981
Melbourne, Australia
Only thing they are hosting, in the end, is a Windows virtual machine that a user has the ability to use. The user may opt to install a game they have bought and stream that then. Why on earth should the Dev decide if that's possible or not?
i mean ultimately i don't think they should, but i think that, even just as a courtesy, devs should be notified that their games are going to appear
 

Stop It

Bad Cat
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,350
but geforce now is still ostensibly a paid service (i know there's a free tier, but it being locked to an hour feels more like a trial than anything? i don't really know how that hour limit works) and the selling point is the library it has access too. i don't think asking developers permission to host their games through that service is too much to ask? i'm not even saying that they should be compensated, but when a company is making money off of providing greater access to your game that seems like something you should be notified of, even if it's just a blanket "hey your game is in this thing, here is a procedure if you choose to opt out"

i also don't understand how this means the dev is trying to get extra money from consumers? like is the argument that someone bought the game on PC and then doesn't have access to a gaming PC anymore expect through geforce now and the devs want to block that so they're forced to buy through another platform? how does restricting a game from geforce now lead to devs and pubs getting further sales of that game? if anything it seems like it would lead to them getting less?

Because if you bought the game on Steam, Geforce Now is literally just a remote PC for playing your game *on Steam*.

Why should a dev decide where I am allowed to play the content I already paid them for? If *Valve* do not want Geforce Now to have access to Steam, that's different.
 

Tart Toter 9K

Member
Oct 25, 2017
397
i also don't understand how this means the dev is trying to get extra money from consumers? like is the argument that someone bought the game on PC and then doesn't have access to a gaming PC anymore expect through geforce now and the devs want to block that so they're forced to buy through another platform? how does restricting a game from geforce now lead to devs and pubs getting further sales of that game? if anything it seems like it would lead to them getting less?
It means they can sell you a "streaming" version of the game like the way Stadia does.
 

spineduke

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,745
But that's different.

This is an option to stream games you already own. If people want to not buy games and have a rental service like Game Pass for streaming, that can exist too.

i imagine the value proposition hurts devs too much.

buy the game one time on steam and get the same indistinguishable functionality as a monthly sub service.
 

uzipukki

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,722
i mean ultimately i don't think they should, but i think that, even just as a courtesy, devs should be notified that their games are going to appear
Well there we can agree, but what I don't agree with is this Devs decision or any other devs/publishers decision to remove the games from GFN. GFN should have the ability to play any game, any time, anywhere. To iterate, Nvidia is not profiting from the game, at the end of the day. The only thing they are profiting off of is a slab of hardware that the end user rents to play a game on. And I don't understand how anyone can be on the side of the dev here. If you go that route, you are limiting your own experience to make it so that devs can make more money off of you.
 

peppersky

Banned
Mar 9, 2018
1,174
They have control over their property.

I bought a license for it

Who are they to say if I play it on my own pc, a friends pc, an internet cafe, or a streamed PC?

Seriously, give me some decent arguments here.
Streaming is a fundamentally different way of playing a game than playing it on your own PC. It's a different product. And as such, the devs should be allowed to choose if they want their game to be allowed to be used that way. Also here, have some other arguments:
Maybe they want you to have the best experience without any streaming lag. Maybe they want to port the game to mobile platforms at some later point. Maybe they don't want to deal with supporting technical problems that might come from the game running on Geforce Now. Maybe they don't want another company to profit off of their games. Maybe they don't want to support the idea of game streaming.

Can you clarify who and what you're referring to?
Well, people think to seem that projects like yuzu or citra are fine, even though all they do is hurt the emulation scene in the long run and encourage piracy.

Since when is commercialization the foundation of artistic merit?
No, but if you actually believe that something is art, you'd want the artists to be in control of their product. If a painter chooses to only show their art in a gallery or a musician chooses to only play live performances, then that should be their choice.
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,219
but geforce now is still ostensibly a paid service (i know there's a free tier, but it being locked to an hour feels more like a trial than anything? i don't really know how that hour limit works) and the selling point is the library it has access too. i don't think asking developers permission to host their games through that service is too much to ask? i'm not even saying that they should be compensated, but when a company is making money off of providing greater access to your game that seems like something you should be notified of, even if it's just a blanket "hey your game is in this thing, here is a procedure if you choose to opt out"

I don't disagree with that. Nvidia did indeed kind of bungle the developer end of relations here out of the gate, it would seem.

At the same time, I don't think it's all about that. GFN has been in beta for a long time, concerns could've been raised before, and the developer in question here later pivoted to it being an issue of commercializing the game on other (non-PC) platforms. So I think it's really just as much (if not more) about selling an extra copy rather than purely Nvidia not being diligent in their developer outreach.
 

newmoneytrash

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,981
Melbourne, Australia
Unfortunately what should be is secondary to what is. Nvidia needs to preserve its relationships, nevermind risking a legal battle. That doesn't really mean that devs and pubs putting their nose into this shit is right.
right, exactly. so i don't understand why the devs wouldn't have been notified *before*

i'm not arguing that devs should be compensated or anything just, if something i worked on was now a part of a larger streaming service (even though it's only for people who have purchased the game), i think it's an entirely natural response to be like "hey wait what is this why didn't you tell me"
 

random88

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,286
Not US
I'm not a legal expert, but I don't think that Nvidia is doing anything wrong here.

The only thing I can think of is that in GFNow UI you have games listed explicitly and you choose to play a specific game.
If they weren't and you only had to log in into a VM which leads you to the Steam application where you choose to play a game from your library, no dev could say a word.
 

Lyng

Editor at Popaco.dk
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,206
if that was the case then i don't think the game would have been removed

Nvidia gave dev's the option to remove their games. If they had not done that I doubt we would be in this situation.
Publishers/developers should never have a say in what pc hardware I play my games on. If they want that they should not release their game on PC.
 

Stop It

Bad Cat
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,350
Honestly, people need to gain some perspective.

This is Steam Link. Geforce Now is Steam Link with someone else powering the PC. That's it. There's no other functional difference.

Would you want Devs to decide whether we have the ability to play our games remotely via Steam Link when we host our own content via PC to xyz streaming? If not whereas the actual difference?
 

Yas

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
503
Arctic Circle, Finland
Well legally speaking they can ask for removal. It becomes quite murky in EU. Technically GFN COULD (not saying it is, but saying it could) infringe the copyrights of the devs. However in practice there's no clear cut answer to this and it would depend more on the license stuff.
Then again streaming videogames on Twitch definitely in some cases where permit is not obtained, especially in older games or games that forbid streaming, infringes copyrights is largely ignored by the industry, so in practice there isn't anything stopping this.
 

Stop It

Bad Cat
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,350
Streaming is a fundamentally different way of playing a game than playing it on your own PC. It's a different product. And as such, the devs should be allowed to choose if they want their game to be allowed to be used that way. Also here, have some other arguments:



Well, people think to seem that projects like yuzu or citra are fine, even though all they do is hurt the emulation scene in the long run and encourage piracy.


No, but if you actually believe that something is art, you'd want the artists to be in control of their product. If a painter chooses to only show their art in a gallery or a musician chooses to only play live performances, then that should be their choice.
No it isn't.

It's remote play.

Steam Link. Stop being ridiculous.
 

SlickShoes

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,770
Because if you bought the game on Steam, Geforce Now is literally just a remote PC for playing your game *on Steam*.

Why should a dev decide where I am allowed to play the content I already paid them for? If *Valve* do not want Geforce Now to have access to Steam, that's different.

And if they go down that route then technically you shouldn't be able to use any remote device that you can't prove you own? How do you prove ownership of a device? how do they detect virtual PC's? The more devs get annoyed at this the worse it's going to be for gamers.

It seems like another way to close down the PC gaming environment.
 

Kinggroin

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,392
Uranus, get it?!? YOUR. ANUS.
If there really is no grounds for the developers to justify their behavior, then Nvidia should double down and defend themselves. Say no, we aren't removing OR adding games. We are only leasing PCs, with which gamers can do as they please (within the rights of their steam license).
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
they all think the big check day is coming now with all these streaming services coming online. I imagine a lot of devs are hoping for a netflix like situation , where they can pitch their game to different streaming services for limited time periods while pocketing multiple checks. not a bad tertiary business for a dev from their main game sales. something like geforce now just makes too much sense for the consumer, and while they don't have a legal argument against it, they have every financial incentive to fight it with this dream scenario.
That's why I think this whole situation doesn't make sense on their end. There's nothing stopping them from removing these games once streaming has safely taken off to begin their bartering position but as it stands there's still a good chance this whole streaming experiment flounders for a good while as Stadia showed. Geforce Now is literally driving streaming adoption it's in their best interest for it to do well to sell the concept to apprehensive consumers but no the money must be gotten now.
 

SlickShoes

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,770
Streaming is a fundamentally different way of playing a game than playing it on your own PC. It's a different product. And as such, the devs should be allowed to choose if they want their game to be allowed to be used that way. Also here, have some other arguments:



Well, people think to seem that projects like yuzu or citra are fine, even though all they do is hurt the emulation scene in the long run and encourage piracy.


No, but if you actually believe that something is art, you'd want the artists to be in control of their product. If a painter chooses to only show their art in a gallery or a musician chooses to only play live performances, then that should be their choice.

If they want me to have the best experience then why can i buy the game without having hardware capable of playing it? that's a total cop-out. Why do devs release broken games that run like trash?
 

uzipukki

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,722
If there really is no grounds for the developers to justify their behavior, then Nvidia should double down and defend themselves. Say no, we aren't removing OR adding games. We are only leasing PCs, with which gamers can do as they please (within the rights of their steam license).
This is I what I would love them to do to too. Market it as a VPS that you get access to and possibly have the ability to play a game, if the one renting the VPS chooses to do so.
 

RyuCookingSomeRice

Alt account
Banned
Feb 5, 2020
1,009
Streaming is a fundamentally different way of playing a game than playing it on your own PC. It's a different product. And as such, the devs should be allowed to choose if they want their game to be allowed to be used that way. Also here, have some other arguments:

Well, people think to seem that projects like yuzu or citra are fine, even though all they do is hurt the emulation scene in the long run and encourage piracy.

If I play the game from my neighbours house, a VPN to my own house, a stream from Nvidia, it doens't matter. It's not a DIFFERENT PRODUCT. It's MY product that I paid for, and i am using MY steam account to play it. It is NOT a different product. Get outta here with that disengenous bullcrap

Huh? Are you now saying that emulation =/ piracy?

Because that's just untrue, and not a popular opinion on this(and many other) boards
 

p3n

Member
Oct 28, 2017
650
This is so weird. Next up devs/pubs try to make their games not work with Steam Remote Play.
 

newmoneytrash

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,981
Melbourne, Australia
If there really is no grounds for the developers to justify their behavior, then Nvidia should double down and defend themselves. Say no, we aren't removing OR adding games. We are only leasing PCs, with which gamers can do as they please (within the rights of their steam license).
yeah but they've already set the precedent of removing *a lot* of games from the service. so it's like

what is this? what is there stance? just everything until someone says no? and are they doing it out of courtesy or are they afraid of legal action or maybe both?

the whole business behind it seems so weird and uneven and it seems like it could have been mitigated by having these conversations *before* and not after

like what if devs just keep requesting to be removed? eventually are nvidia just going to say no, or are they going to allow their service to be compromised? and if they do eventually put their foot down and say now, what does it mean for all of the games they previously removed from their service?
 

Tart Toter 9K

Member
Oct 25, 2017
397
No, but if you actually believe that something is art, you'd want the artists to be in control of their product. If a painter chooses to only show their art in a gallery or a musician chooses to only play live performances, then that should be their choice.
But if i paid the painter for a copy of their art and they tell me i can't move it from my living room to my bedroom then they can go eat a lemon.
 

fourfourfun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,680
England
I still don't understand why NVIDIA needs permission to begin with?

I would guess it would be down to the terms of whatever the license is you purchase. If it states that you are only to use on your hardware and not by a third party, then that is where Nvidia will be facing their struggle.

Would imagine this is where a lot of people are looking at - i.e. you pay for your local license one off, then subscribe for your streaming license at their vendor of choice.
 

uzipukki

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,722
yeah but they've already set the precedent of removing *a lot* of games from the service. so it's like

what is this? what is there stance? just everything until someone says no? and are they doing it out of courtesy or are they afraid of legal action or maybe both?

the whole business behind it seems so weird and uneven and it seems like it could have been mitigated by having these conversations *before* and not after

like what if devs just keep requesting to be removed? eventually are nvidia just going to say no, or are they going to allow their service to be compromised? and if they do eventually put their foot down and say now, what does it mean for all of the games they previously removed from their service?
The devs had 3 years to understand what GFN was trying to achieve. GFN was in beta access for over 3 years and at one point had the ability to run ANY game on it. I didn't see any devs getting their knickers in a bunch when the beta was running. There's no two ways about this. The only thing devs/publishers are mad about here is that GFN has a paid subscription and they aren't getting a piece of that, and they shouldn't be getting.
 

Wintermute

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,051
Valve is still distributing the games. The user is logging into the regular Steam client and installing them on hardware they are renting from NVIDIA.



Note: several minutes of installation were cut from this video (I should have left it in or figured out how to speed it up instead, since several people have tried to make the case that NVIDIA are just "pretending to install" the game).


i'm subbed to GFN so I've experienced the install process for multiple games. a few things about this interest me.

1) what if GFN is caching install files, this is entirely possible to do and a reasonable thing to do if you're a steam user (but perhaps not a company). as the article notes CDNs can bandwidth cap. Does GFN approach the CDNs and ask them not to cap their connections? I've seen the speed at which things are ready to play. I'd posit that those files are being copied locally from a cache. are GFN allowed to do that? Does that mean they are no longer just a hardware service giving you rental space?

2) some game installs are "instant play", what does this mean? i've installed games (i think maybe darkest dungeon was one), where there was *no* install process you just clicked install and it instantly booted. again, how is this happening? are these games so simple to install that GFN can just copy a locally cached version or indeed launch multiple instances from that cached version? How does a game become instant launch, is that agreed with publishers?

3) what kind of deal does GFN have with valve? what kind of deals does valve offer to companies who are using their software service as the crux of their own service offering? if valve launches their own streaming service could we see valve tell GFN to pull steam from their service. The idea that valve are never going to object to GFN because it makes them money is kind of simplistic. valve isn't a neutral party in all of this. they have their own aims which may not align with GFN.

honestly i'd prefer to hear a legal view on whether what GFN is doing constitutes redistribution, most people here are arguing from the perspective of wanting GFN to succeed, that's fine, i get that, i do too. i have a stadia controller collecting dust, the moment GFN hit i was all over it, but pragmatically i think there's a whole lot of stuff going on here we should all be really careful of.

finally. if nvidia really was just a hardware rental service then there would be no limits on what we could install on there, the whole steam library would be available. clearly there are limits though. why do those limits exist? legal issues, technical? again, if GFN was a neutral service which was just hardware rental, then why is there a limit on what you can play on it?
 

Mg.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,972
Is it in no way playable now via Geforce NOW? The service once only led me to Steam in Big Picture mode without a game launching or anything (which seemed like a bug). It looked like I was able to boot up any random game I owned at that point.

Maybe the devs didn't want their game to appear in the catalogue of the Geforce NOW app.
 

newmoneytrash

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,981
Melbourne, Australia
The devs had 3 years to understand what GFN was trying to achieve. GFN was in beta access for over 3 years and at one point had the ability to run ANY game on it. I didn't see any devs getting their knickers in a bunch when the beta was running. There's no two ways about this. The only thing devs/publishers are mad about here is that GFN has a paid subscription and they aren't getting a piece of that, and they shouldn't be getting.
sure, but that doesn't really answer any of my questions about how nvidia are managing what games they do and don't provide access to
 

spineduke

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,745
I would guess it would be down to the terms of whatever the license is you purchase. If it states that you are only to use on your hardware and not by a third party, then that is where Nvidia will be facing their struggle.

Would imagine this is where a lot of people are looking at - i.e. you pay for your local license one off, then subscribe for your streaming license at their vendor of choice.

EULAs do not hold up in court. This is just Nvidia playing ball.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,078
If I play the game from my neighbours house, a VPN to my own house, a stream from Nvidia, it doens't matter. It's not a DIFFERENT PRODUCT. It's MY product that I paid for, and i am using MY steam account to play it. It is NOT a different product. Get outta here with that disengenous bullcrap

Huh? Are you now saying that emulation =/ piracy?

Because that's just untrue, and not a popular opinion on this(and many other) boards
Emulation isnt piracy. Emulators are fully legal as long as they dont use propietary tech, and that has been accepted by law.

EULAs do not hold up in court. This is just Nvidia playing ball.
Yep, EULAs are bs that nobody reads and EU courts have said time and time again that as nobody reads them (and are made to not be read), they cannot be binding.
 

Uzzy

Gabe’s little helper
Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,093
Hull, UK
Streaming is a fundamentally different way of playing a game than playing it on your own PC. It's a different product. And as such, the devs should be allowed to choose if they want their game to be allowed to be used that way.

I'm sorry, but the idea that streaming is 'fundamentally different' is utterly absurd. If I want to have my PC's output displayed on my TV screen through a WiFi connection, how is that 'fundamentally different' to having to displayed on my monitor through displayport cables? 'Fundamentally different' to the point that I should have to purchase the game again? Ludicrous.
 

uzipukki

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,722
sure, but that doesn't really answer any of my questions about how nvidia are managing what games they do and don't provide access to
Only Nvidia knows the real answer to that. I think it is a mix of many things, what games are popular, easy to make them cachable (I believe installers that use HTTPS can't be cached), what dev they have a good working relationship etc. Imo they should have the ability to install and use any game the end user wishes to use. And the developers/publishers probably don't even have a legal say in this, but it's just Nvidia being cautious and not wanting to risk it.
 

Oticon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,446
What if I rent PC parts and play games on it? Is it not allowed also? Technically, someone else is getting subscription based paymenta for hardware while I play my own software.