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Deleted member 42

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
16,939
8% for the majority of it at these numbers, rather than 18. And do we know how Epic retail keys are charged? Possibly 12% loss on those vs 0% for Steam? I have no idea.

There's the fees for Unreal Engine too, but again no idea how it works at this level - I don't think these big AAAs deal with the 5% anyhow?

I hate that I know bits of this, I need to use my brain for more important things, but:

Retail keys aren't charged
Big AAAs negotiate rights fees for Unreal Engine on a case by case basis
If your game is Unreal Engine and on EGS, they don't take anything at all
 

Dave.

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,139
I hate that I know bits of this, I need to use my brain for more important things, but:

Retail keys aren't charged
Big AAAs negotiate rights fees for Unreal Engine on a case by case basis
If your game is Unreal Engine and on EGS, they don't take anything at all
Great thanks - that's most everything then. The retail keys are a wash, and some small (relatively) amount saved through UE4 fees also.
 

Complicated

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,333
I'm so glad the appetite is still there. All the competitors in the years between have been such pale imitations of Borderlands which I never thought lived up to its own promise in the first place.
 

s y

Member
Nov 8, 2017
10,430
I've run multiple music forums. I'm a band manager, I spend my life looking at/worrying about sales, streams and ticket figures for tours.

I have access to a ton of music sales data that regular folk don't see. I've never once had a music fan demand I share with them day one sales of a record. They generally don't care.
Must be a hip hop thing because first week sale numbers are incessantly discussed/demanded.
 

Night Hunter

Member
Dec 5, 2017
2,794
Why do gamers demand sales figures? Imagine that in any other media and it seems crazy.

Band: We're really happy with how many people are streaming our new album!

Fan: if you are happy with the numbers you would release them not obscure them

What? Box Office Numbers are reported down to the Dollar and Tv got publicly available Nielsen ratings. It's only the games industry that is extremely secretive with everything they do.
 

Wumbo64

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
327
8% for the majority of it at these numbers, rather than 18. And do we know how Epic retail keys are charged? Possibly 12% loss on those vs 0% for Steam? I have no idea.

There's the fees for Unreal Engine too, but again no idea how it works at this level - I don't think these big AAAs deal with the 5% anyhow?

You only get 8% once you cross a threshold of sales, which I don't think Valve applies that retroactively. Epic is just flat. Plus they waive or reduce some Engine fees for using their store. It is cool that Valve lets you take more revenue, but earning that privilege is exclusionary. Borderlands wouldn't have that much trouble reaching it, but who knows what the timetable and payout methodology is. Meanwhile, that is all money you aren't pocketing to recoup costs or reinvest.

As for the keys... I don't know. I was sure Epic just borrowed Valve's approach.

Ultimately, I think a lot of folk in this thread are trying to downplay how smart of a move this was for 2K/Gearbox. Free upfront money, waived engine fees, a higher cut of every sale from the get-go, top billing for weeks on a growing store. Plus, the game is only exclusive for a 6 month period. It will come to Steam later with updates and more content, likely on sale. It will get a second-wind.

I have little doubt Gearbox, 2K, Epic and eventually Valve will be jubilant.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,800
So that's pretty awesome for Gearbox then. 88% take instead of 65%, and it's still around top-5 Steam launches ever.

(That Hitman 2 number includes free trials btw, not all were $60 purchases)

When talking about these numbers in a vacuum, sure. However, it becomes a more interesting conversation when we take into account a few other factors. For example, we know that Bordelands 3 dethroned Fortnite from Xbox's most played list. That is a massive level of success that has clearly not been replicated on PC given that Borderlands 3 would be in 3rd or 4th place of Steam's current concurrent users list had it launched with the same numbers on that platform. Keep in mind that several of PC's biggest games exist outside of Steam, like Fortnite. It is plausible that Borderlands 3 would be even lower on that list in a hypothetical scenario in which every PC game's concurrent users were tracked by Steam.
 

SpartyCrunch

Xbox
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,497
Seattle, WA
When talking about these numbers in a vacuum, sure. However, it becomes a more interesting conversation when we take into account a few other factors. For example, we know that Bordelands 3 dethroned Fortnite from Xbox's most played list. That is a massive level of success that has clearly not been replicated on PC given that Borderlands 3 would be in 3rd or 4th place of Steam's current concurrent users list had it launched with the same numbers on that platform. Keep in mind that several of PC's biggest games exist outside of Steam, like Fortnite. It is plausible that Borderlands 3 would be even lower on that list in a hypothetical scenario in which every PC game's concurrent users were tracked by Steam.
We also don't know what Epic paid for exclusivity so the whole conversation involving any sort of speculation is pointless.

All we do know (if you trust Randy) is that Borderlands 3 is one of the biggest PC launches ever for a $60 game despite being on a storefront which some communities think everyone hates.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,800
We also don't know what Epic paid for exclusivity so the whole conversation involving any sort of speculation is pointless.

All we do know (if you trust Randy) is that Borderlands 3 is one of the biggest PC launches ever for a $60 game despite being on a storefront which some communities think everyone hates.

As I said above, big games that sell to a mainstream audience are not affected by controversies regarding companies, services or people. Borderlands 3 being a big hit was never in doubt. What is in doubt (and rightly so based on available data) is if the level of success on PC is keeping pace with the level of success on other platforms.

As for the wisdom of the publisher's deal with Epic, it really is impossible to make even an educated guess without knowing the numbers involved and the game's future launch on Steam.
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,747
Congrats to the Borderlands team.

Also the salt responses in this thread. "Meh, could've been better if it released on Steam."
 

Theiea

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,574
Meanwhile, I can't even buy it because I can't get into my EGS account. Their CS is terrible.
 

SpartyCrunch

Xbox
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,497
Seattle, WA


What kind of game achieves a higher player peak on day 2? That is weird.

A game that comes out on Friday where many people can't play it until the weekend.

And then on the weekend sessions are probably longer on average.



[edit] Skyrim did the same thing:


November 11th, 2011 (launch day - Friday): 269,312 peak concurrency
November 12th, 2011 (Saturday): 286,435
November 13th, 2011 (Sunday): 287,411
 
Last edited:

Niceguydan8

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,411

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Obviously Borderlands series is now bigger than when BL2 launched so it makes sense, but given EGS requirement, given EGS exclusivity is only six months, given some negative reviews and given some other factors (Denuvo, Randy's Internet fame), it's pretty good numbers!

I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of players:

1.) Take minimal or no issue with getting Borderlands from EGS.

2.) Either don't know or don't care about Pitchford's internet fame or Denuvo.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
As I said above, big games that sell to a mainstream audience are not affected by controversies regarding companies, services or people. Borderlands 3 being a big hit was never in doubt. What is in doubt (and rightly so based on available data) is if the level of success on PC is keeping pace with the level of success on other platforms.

As for the wisdom of the publisher's deal with Epic, it really is impossible to make even an educated guess without knowing the numbers involved and the game's future launch on Steam.
The biggest thing it does is prove viability. Not that viability away from Steam was ever in question but ultimately for large mainstream games, it seems less and less likely that there's there a crippling revenue for moving away from Steam. Which is a big problem for valve but it seems their main and most reasonable goal is to diversify away from big AAA releases.
 

Deleted member 56580

User requested account closure
Banned
May 8, 2019
1,881
When talking about these numbers in a vacuum, sure. However, it becomes a more interesting conversation when we take into account a few other factors. For example, we know that Bordelands 3 dethroned Fortnite from Xbox's most played list. That is a massive level of success that has clearly not been replicated on PC given that Borderlands 3 would be in 3rd or 4th place of Steam's current concurrent users list had it launched with the same numbers on that platform. Keep in mind that several of PC's biggest games exist outside of Steam, like Fortnite. It is plausible that Borderlands 3 would be even lower on that list in a hypothetical scenario in which every PC game's concurrent users were tracked by Steam.

Most played game in the world is Arena of Valor, so whats the point of all of this really

If Gearbox supports the game well they got nothing to worry about and will only keep increasing the playerbase. Besides its very much apples and oranges, VERY few fully PvE games manage to maintain a high player base. BL 2 still had a million of unique logins back in june
 

GreatFenris

Banned
Apr 6, 2019
404
I love how everytime some mouthpiece for Epic claims it's a super-duper-ultra-best, so best-success they are always hilariously vague and at best do a "...Well it topped this old game's player number...Yep"
And then we have the defense brigade out. "Why do you want to know the Numbers?!!!"
Because when it comes to these things I'd like some hard numbers? Because people that have made it their task to lie and deceive buyers can't be trusted to speak the goddamn truth. And in this case because Randy Bitchford is a piece of human-sized waste material who should be spanked by Jim Sterling's giant purple dildo-sword. Back in the day Nintendo and Sega at least released numbers supporting their sales, now it's just "Truuuust us...Give us all your money."
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,800
The biggest thing it does is prove viability. Not that viability away from Steam was ever in question but ultimately for large mainstream games, it seems less and less likely that there's there a crippling revenue for moving away from Steam. Which is a big problem for valve but it seems their main and most reasonable goal is to diversify away from big AAA releases.

Crippling revenue loss was never a realistic scenario for big mainstream games. The majority of people buying them do not follow gaming news closely enough to be aware of details like the use of a particular PC platform or Pitchford's controversial personality. For big games the important question (ever since EA left Steam) has been if lost revenue from not being on Steam is bigger than the gains from the smaller (or zero, in the case of publisher-owned stores) cut.

Most played game in the world is Arena of Valor, so whats the point of all of this really

If Gearbox supports the game well they got nothing to worry about and will only keep increasing the playerbase. Besides its very much apples and oranges, VERY few fully PvE games manage to maintain a high player base. BL 2 still had a million of unique logins back in june

The point is that the only number we have to go on is concurrent user numbers which include F2P games.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
Crippling revenue loss was never a realistic scenario for big mainstream games. The majority of people buying them do not follow gaming news closely enough to be aware of details like the use of a particular PC platform or Pitchford's controversial personality. For big games the important question (ever since EA left Steam) has been if lost revenue from not being on Steam is bigger than the gains from the smaller (or zero, in the case of publisher-owned stores) cut.
Don't think the question was ever really even that. As far as Epic and most companies taking part in it's deals are concerned the store is still in it's growth stage. As long as the revenue loss is minor it's a win. The deal was done for the purpose of growing the store (from Epics pov).

What the publishers get out of it in the long term is a platform that they can acquire just as many sales from as they did on Steam with substantially lower costs.

That's why so many are tripping over themselves to take these deals even if it may be more profitable to release on Steam.

These are all long term plays.
 

Dalik

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,528
What the publishers get out of it in the long term is platform that they can acquire just as many sales from as they did on Steam with substantially lower costs.
That's yet to be proven entirely since we have no numbers. Or you could say we have no numbers so it's probably not true at all, everyone is always vague as shit for a reason, cause it's not good.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,305
Don't think the question was ever really even that. As far as Epic and most companies taking part in it's deals are concerned the store is still in it's growth stage. As long as the revenue loss is minor it's a win. The deal was done for the purpose of growing the store (from Epics pov).

What the publishers get out of it in the long term is a platform that they can acquire just as many sales from as they did on Steam with substantially lower costs.

That's why so many are tripping over themselves to take these deals even if it may be more profitable to release on Steam.

These are all long term plays.




It always was the point for some publishers. Driving the revenue share down to irrealistic levels.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,305
The biggest thing it does is prove viability. Not that viability away from Steam was ever in question but ultimately for large mainstream games, it seems less and less likely that there's there a crippling revenue for moving away from Steam. Which is a big problem for valve but it seems their main and most reasonable goal is to diversify away from big AAA releases.


That has yet to be proved.
There's a reason why Epic pays copies in advance. And a reason why BL3 is 6 months instead of 12. It's to make up for the revenue loss.
And even if 240k (might be lower actually) concurrent users is good ... The potential on Steam was twice higher despite what some people claim here. The platform has grown a lot since 2012 and we can see that for every big multiplayer release.
 

Pryme

Member
Aug 23, 2018
8,164
Crippling revenue loss was never a realistic scenario for big mainstream games. The majority of people buying them do not follow gaming news closely enough to be aware of details like the use of a particular PC platform or Pitchford's controversial personality. For big games the important question (ever since EA left Steam) has been if lost revenue from not being on Steam is bigger than the gains from the smaller (or zero, in the case of publisher-owned stores) cut.


Strange that you think it's about people not following gaming news that well. Truth be told, it's far more likely that the majority of gamers don't really care.
On most mainstream sites I visit, when this comes up, people don't really care. They'll play the games where they are, as long as they're fully functional.
 

True Prophecy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,921
Happy for gearbox and the Borderlands team. Wish Randy had nothing to do with it as while his team deserves it he does not.

Not happy about EGS personally because it simply means that buying exclusives works and will now not stop in the PC space.

But as shown ain't much that will make a difference now in the grand scheme other than me keeping to my own standards.
 

Dalik

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,528
Strange that you think it's about people not following gaming news that well. Truth be told, it's far more likely that the majority of gamers don't really care.
On most mainstream sites I visit, when this comes up, people don't really care. They'll play the games where they are, as long as they're fully functional.
If we talking anecdotal i can say the exact opposite, only era has EGS defenders.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
That's yet to be proven entirely since we have no numbers. Or you could say we have no numbers so it's probably not true at all, everyone is always vague as shit for a reason, cause it's not good.
I'm not saying that's what's happening now it's highly likely it's not. I'm saying that's the goal and ultimate long term incentive for any short term losses.

Whether they actually achieve it remains to be seen
 

ZeroX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,266
Speed Force
I'm seeing it on billboards and buses here, something that's usually reserved for CoD and Rockstar. They're going all out.
 

Irrotational

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,136
Honestly, the main thing I noticed in the original tweet was that he couldn't even be bothered to replace "you guys" with "you're all".

I know it's a generalist phrase for some people but I think it's a bit crap. There's literally no reason to use it when alternatives exist and don't even have a hint of bias. I also think it's worse to use it in areas where there is a default male bias.

Just another (tiny) thing to add to all the large things!
 
Nov 3, 2017
2,223
I'm not sure why this is so contentious? It seems BL3 did really well, even as a EGS exclusive. Of course it would have done even better if it was on Steam. If not, Epic wouldn't have to buy exclusivity.