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Jun 26, 2018
3,829
If everyone had that attitude there would never be a boycott of anything.

Review bombing is the favorite tactic of gamers because it still lets them play the game they want to play while claiming they're taking a stand. They don't have the willpower to not buy it for 6 months, a year, or forever in order to prove a point.

I'm actually boycutting a number of publishers and games currently, but I know it doesn't matter to anyone else but myself, because there is literally millions of people who play video games that don't even know about any of this or any other controversies.

Review bombing is the favourite tactic, because it's public and it might actually threaten a publisher/developer's bottom line by discouraging sales by people who don't read the reviews but only glance at the overall score.

If millions of gamers are going to buy on the Epic store and don't care about the exclusivity than ,yeah, it's over.

Borderlands is massively popular, so it wouldn't surprise me if they do gangbusters regardless of the storefront, rendering all protests pretty much void. Even the review bombing is going to have a negligible impact.

Honestly even if the game was total shit upon release, it might still succeed, I mean just look at what Todd Howard is saying about Fallout 76.

It fucking sucks, and it's not sustainable, I hope at least.
 

Deleted member 9305

Oct 26, 2017
4,064
I don't feel sorry for publishers. There's a cause for being review bombed, reflect on that instead of claiming victim hood.
 

Durante

Dark Souls Man
Member
Oct 24, 2017
5,074
I get that you guys are angry *now* and want to say something to Gearbox now, but the only truly effective communication is to not buy the game when it launches.
Actually, I think you are half right: the most effective way of making the point is both review bombing and not buying the game.
It provides both results and reasoning.

As others have stated before in this thread, the reason select publishers are up in arms about review bombing is because it's effective.

>Steam has no interest in correcting this misuse

Literally GDC, but even before that, graphical representations of scores over time, but even before that, two separate review indicators based on time. Hell, I'm not sure of a more thorough review overview system in general. Definitely not in any existing digital distributors. I'm guessing Randy would rather reviews just didn't exist.
It's pretty transparent.
 

MJnR

Member
Mar 13, 2019
667
"[...]makes me want to reconsider Gearbox Publishing's current posture on the platform." I find this extremely funny since Borderlands is the single Gearbox IP that would make Epic or any other big name throw cash for exclusivity deals. Unless Randy is planning to release multiple spin-offs in the coming years, which may guarantee him with a multi-game deal with EGS now, he better worry about which store will accept Battleborn: Colonial Marines.
 

Tobor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,429
Richmond, VA
I agree that it is far more effective. But it doesn't actually have to stop sales, merely resist or reduce them. I'm sure they have projection of how much they want to sell in X time. As long as it falls short somewhere, they'll pay attention.

Absolutely. Look at Microsoft. They didn't reverse course on the Xbox One because of derision on the Internet. The preorder numbers were in the toilet, and boom, they shifted gears.

How about Tomb Raider? Even better example. The game went exclusive, sales suffered. It's not exclusive anymore.
 

Eumi

Member
Nov 3, 2017
3,518
Terrible example.

Games like Dark Souls got ported to PC and started franchising because of a petition.
The point of that petition was to show that there was a desire for Dark Souls on PC, and was something that would help the people who profit from that franchise make more money.

It has nothing to do with the effectiveness of petitions that aim to counter companies attempts to profit. It's a far, faaaaar worse example than the Brexit one, which is already not a perfect one.
 

Deleted member 4044

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,121
"Just don't buy it" is also the favourite response of people who want to sound like they're willing to take a stand for something, but are against any sort of active protest and would rather that if people want to speak out against companies they do it completely silently.

Hey look, I can do this too!

Please, actually engage with why you believe that review boycotting is ineffective instead of trying to weirdly tie all these negative things to anyone who does it.

It's ineffective because it allows people to think they've done their part while still buying the game. In fact, leaving a review on Steam requires you to have bought the game in the first place. That's not the case with this example as the reviews are left on an eight year old game (which I think is pathetic) instead of the title causing the controversy, but it essentially becomes a case of "Here's my money, now let me tell everybody else why they shouldn't give you money like I just did".

A more effective tactic would be to recognize who signed the exclusivity deal in the first place (2K) and remove all games by that publisher from your wishlist. Don't buy any 2K games going forward, including Civilization games, the inevitable RDR2 PC port and even games that aren't announced yet such as XCOM3 (assuming its coming eventually). But as I said, gamers lack the willpower to actually carry out a boycott, so they prefer to review bomb instead.
 

ara

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,001
Man, imagine thinking that just shutting up and not buying something sends anyone any sort of a message

Like how naive can you be

Imagine being such a capitalist corporate slave, you call people dumb and entitled for not entering a state of mindless consumption.

Very eloquently put.

e: also the folks who call it entitlement when people aren't just mindlessly consuming are wild
 
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Oct 29, 2017
1,032
It really disturbs me that people only remember the good examples of review bombing. Do any of you recall what happened to Total War Rome II? It got review bombed by some neo-nazis who couldn't stop complaining about "women in ma videogames!" because of a change that in a certain period allowed more women general to show up in the game. Where were you, then? Any of you? Those who are in favor of review bombing and those who don't? Hell, where was Valve?

Like, fuck Randy Pitchford (a known con man) and Gearbox (a company who defrauded Sega to diverge millions into the development of Borderlands 2), but don't come in here telling me that review bombing is helpful because it helped in a couple of cases. The people who worked on Rome II did not deserve that shit.

They did not deserve it but that also was not review bombing because it regards the content of the game in question. You're just talking about banning user reviews entirely. 'Review bombing' does not apply to your example.

Where were people? They were here, in multiple threads condemning those people because they were wrong. They were supporting the devs and letting them know that they didn't need to give in to those people because they were wrong. However that is a poor reason to remove user reviews in their entirety
 

Sean Mirrsen

Banned
May 9, 2018
1,159
Just as always, Vote with your wallets. If B3 sales are below expectations then suddenly in 6 months they shoot up once it hits Steam, I think the PC industry will take notice and exclusive deals will become less attractive to publishers.
They won't. The upfront money from the deal will always offset any possible expected sales loss from boycotts, as well as the profit difference from the lower cut on other platforms. Voting with your wallet is the exact thing the exclusivity deals are strongest against, because "more money" counters "less money", it's what the upfront payment is expected to compensate for.
 
Oct 29, 2017
1,032
It's ineffective because it allows people to think they've done their part while still buying the game. In fact, leaving a review on Steam requires you to have bought the game in the first place. That's not the case with this example as the reviews are left on an eight year old game (which I think is pathetic) instead of the title causing the controversy, but it essentially becomes a case of "Here's my money, now let me tell everybody else why they shouldn't give you money like I just did".

A more effective tactic would be to recognize who signed the exclusivity deal in the first place (2K) and remove all games by that publisher from your wishlist. Don't buy any 2K games going forward, including Civilization games, the inevitable RDR2 PC port and even games that aren't announced yet such as XCOM3 (assuming its coming eventually). But as I said, gamers lack the willpower to actually carry out a boycott, so they prefer to review bomb instead.

This stuff is classic straw man arguing. You've invented the perfect person for your argument but provided no evidence they exist.

There is no evidence everyone posting the reviews will buy the game anyway. It's just something you've invented because it's convenient to your argument
 

Tobor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,429
Richmond, VA
Actually, I think you are half right: the most effective way of making the point is both review bombing and not buying the game.
It provides both results and reasoning.

As others have stated before in this thread, the reason select publishers are up in arms about review bombing is because it's effective.

It's pretty transparent.

It's only effective if it leads to reduced sales. Otherwise it's toothless.

People have to be willing to not buy the game. The publisher has to think the review bombing will lead to reduced sales.
 

Deleted member 4044

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,121
This stuff is classic straw man arguing. You've invented the perfect person for your argument but provided no evidence they exist.

There is no evidence everyone posting the reviews will buy the game anyway. It's just something you've invented because it's convenient to your argument

Do you or do you not have to buy a game on Steam to leave a review in the first place? As I mentioned, that's not the case for this specific example (due to the controversy coming before the game releases on the platform), but it is for most of the games that are review bombed
 

Tobor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,429
Richmond, VA
They won't. The upfront money from the deal will always offset any possible expected sales loss from boycotts, as well as the profit difference from the lower cut on other platforms. Voting with your wallet is the exact thing the exclusivity deals are strongest against, because "more money" counters "less money", it's what the upfront payment is expected to compensate for.

Not true. Look at Tomb Raider. Exclusivity lead to reduced sales and the series isn't exclusive anymore.
 

Fanta

Member
May 27, 2018
508
>Steam has no interest in correcting this misuse

Literally GDC, but even before that, graphical representations of scores over time, but even before that, two separate review indicators based on time. Hell, I'm not sure of a more thorough review overview system in general. Definitely not in any existing digital distributors. I'm guessing Randy would rather reviews just didn't exist.

That's the thing though, none of that matters because their idea of "correcting this misuse" isn't to improve Steam reviews, it's to remove it entirely, and until that happens it will never be good enough.
 

kafiend

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,249
Review bombing or reviewing positively is an excellent method of communication. It tells you when the people that gave you money are happy AND mad. Publishers etc. have already proved they will do anything for money even incurring inevitable backlash. Therefore, are we really supposed to believe that the same publisher would, after the exclusivity money is finished, forego even more money?

Randy Pitchfork should think about what decision caused what reaction before he opens his mouth.
 

Durante

Dark Souls Man
Member
Oct 24, 2017
5,074
It's only effective if it leads to reduced sales. Otherwise it's toothless.

People have to be willing to not buy the game. The publisher has to think the review bombing will lead to reduced sales.
Bad reviews lead to lower sales.

That's the whole reason why some publishers are so upset about gamers having this ability.

If it didn't have an effect, you wouldn't see this much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
 

ShadowAUS

Member
Feb 20, 2019
2,106
Australia
Remember when reviewing bombing was called a "powerful new voice" by the press?

Bonus quote:

-SteamSpy's Sergey Galyonkin
Oh, I remember this! That's fucking hilarious.

We don't like moneyhatting.
Basically. It seems like a lot of people are ignoring this -

THE GREAT EPIC STORE FAQ

- despite it being posted everywhere. It's not even exhaustive but it should be enough for people to realize why people are up in arms. That doesn't mean they have to agree, but there is no excuse for not understanding the argument at this point.
 
Oct 29, 2017
1,032
Do you or do you not have to buy a game on Steam to leave a review in the first place? As I mentioned, that's not the case for this specific example (due to the controversy coming before the game releases on the platform), but it is for most of the games that are review bombed

You have exactly no evidence to provide that the people leaving the reviews will also buy the game. It's something you made up for convenience.

It's not really clear what you're arguing here anyway. Are you trying to say people can only complain if they didn't buy the game? Or that they can only complain if they do?
 

Eumi

Member
Nov 3, 2017
3,518
Do you or do you not have to buy a game on Steam to leave a review in the first place? As I mentioned, that's not the case for this specific example (due to the controversy coming before the game releases on the platform), but it is for most of the games that are review bombed
Most review bombing doesn't happen the way you seem to want to believe it does.

Most review bombing on Steam is about updates and changes to games, or unrelated games like this case, because usually the people review bombing either won't buy the game, or had previously when the thing they're complaining about now didn't exist.

Stop making people up for your argument and actually address reality.
 

Carlius

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,000
Buenos Aires, Argentina
Review bombing games is dumb, it's even dumber for games that have nothing to do with the issue your moaning about.
Ultimately, I doubt very much this will see much of a positive result.
EGS will keep getting exclusives and they will probably sell just fine.
they will sell fine because the EGS has paid the publisher so they dont have to worry about shitty sales. but they will lose sales compared to steam. thats obvious and egs shitty ass numbers that they throw out there without any proof just doesnt help. yes, again, they will sell fine, cause even selling one copy they are covered with the moneyhatting.
 

Deleted member 4044

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,121
You have exactly no evidence to provide that the people leaving the reviews will also buy the game. It's something you made up for convenience.

It's not really clear what you're arguing here anyway. Are you trying to say people can only complain if they didn't buy the game? Or that they can only complain if they do?

I'm saying the method of complaining that requires you to buy the game in the first place to leave the review is an ineffective method of expressing your dissatisfaction, and a much better method would be to go scorched earth boycott against all games by that publisher.
 

SFLUFAN

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,392
Alexandria, VA
If Randy picks up his ball and goes home, then whatever will we do without the sequels to such fantastic Gearbox-published titles such as Earthfall, We Happy Few, and Hello Neighbor?!?
 

Akai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,045
Hope the stance backfires. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Very well said!

It's a bit sad that on an enthusiast gaming forum you find people who seem unhappy about customers actually having an effective means to lobby for their concerns, but what can you do.

Are you honestly surprised, though? Some people on here defend the most stupid shit done by companies and then when said company is changing their stance (due to backlash or whatever), they are acting as if the company did the greatest thing possible. It's really tiresome.

We don't like moneyhatting.

Yup. Not sure why it's so difficult to understand and why people care more about the money that a company will make than about the consumers in general.
 

Musubi

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
23,611
Stuff like this is why user reviews are just 100% worthless trash. Nobody should pay attention to them.
 
Oct 29, 2017
1,032
I'm saying the method of complaining that requires you to buy the game in the first place to leave the review is an ineffective method of expressing your dissatisfaction, and a much better method would be to go scorched earth boycott against all games by that publisher.
I'm sorry but you're still not making sense.

In most cases 'review bombing' implies the person did not buy the game. If I leave I review about something I don't like on a game I bought that's just a regular review. That's not a 'review bomb'
 

Kyougar

Cute Animal Whisperer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,354
You know why "Don't buy it, then" is such a bad argument?
because you are talking to a fan of a Game/Publisher/Dev. They DON'T want to boycott, they want to send a signal, they want to undo a decision. etc.

The people who reviewbombed Paradox games for their DLC price raise were their most loyal fans, they don't want Paradox to get shit, they also don't want Paradox to close shop, so boycotting is counterproductive. So they reviewbombed, and it worked.

You need to own a game to make a review on Steam. So every reviewbomb is a paying customer who is unhappy with your company, who already proved that he buys your games. And not some anonymous troll with hundred accounts that dislikes videos on youtube or gives 1stars on metacritic or mobile game platforms.
 

ArnoldJRimmer

Banned
Aug 22, 2018
1,322
Actually, I think you are half right: the most effective way of making the point is both review bombing and not buying the game.
It provides both results and reasoning.

As others have stated before in this thread, the reason select publishers are up in arms about review bombing is because it's effective.

It's pretty transparent.

What publishers actually want is a store front without any user reviews at all. Just a score of their choosing and some links to youtube influencers they've paid.

All games will have 5 or 4.75 stars and a quote from famous youtuber: "best game evah!"

Epic just might offer them exactly that.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,029
Absolutely. Look at Microsoft. They didn't reverse course on the Xbox One because of derision on the Internet. The preorder numbers were in the toilet, and boom, they shifted gears.

How about Tomb Raider? Even better example. The game went exclusive, sales suffered. It's not exclusive anymore.

This is revisionist history. During the entire lead-up to that year's E3, MS was just getting crapped on left and right on any and all platforms available to consumers. Even Sony themselves got in on it. This led to a prevalent narrative that the Xbox One was horribly anti-consumer. One directly led to the other. In fact, that taint is still with the Xbox One today because of how incredibly vocal the pushback was.

Information doesn't magically transport into consumers' heads. It was people communicating their displeasure at MS's decisions that led to low pre-order numbers. If every person who disliked the direction they were heading kept quiet, I doubt the pre-orders would have been nearly as dire as they were.
 

Sean Mirrsen

Banned
May 9, 2018
1,159
This mindset is why the gaming community is so toxic. The fact thay you think this is acceptable just speaks volumes about you.
I would rather see a gaming community that is "toxic", than one that is completely powerless to push back against changes that hurt it. Even in nature you see fish and insects evolve to be poisonous, because those that don't get et.
 

Nassudan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,347
If Randy picks up his ball and goes home, then whatever will we do without the sequels to such fantastic Gearbox-published titles such as Earthfall, We Happy Few, and Hello Neighbor?!?

Or the awesomesauce that is Colonial Marines?
It's funny how everyone is wising up to the fact that Randy is a dim asshole. Equally funny is how EGS is making Tim Sweeney sound like a used car salesman.
 

Deleted member 4044

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,121
I would rather see a gaming community that is "toxic", than one that is completely powerless to push back against changes that hurt it.

This is a yikes post. You don't have to buy games! There are other games and even other hobbies to engage with! Why do people feel like they have to buy a certain title and therefore need to make sure it suits them completely?
 

ArnoldJRimmer

Banned
Aug 22, 2018
1,322
User Banned (1 Day): System Warring; previous warnings
This is revisionist history. During the entire lead-up to that year's E3, MS was just getting crapped on left and right on any and all platforms available to consumers. Even Sony themselves got in on it. This led to a prevalent narrative that the Xbox One was horribly anti-consumer. One directly led to the other. In fact, that taint is still with the Xbox One today because of how incredibly vocal the pushback was.

Information doesn't magically transport into consumers' heads. It was people communicating their displeasure at MS's decisions that led to low pre-order numbers. If every person who disliked the direction they were heading kept quiet, I doubt the pre-orders would have been nearly as dire as they were.

And ofcourse this forum was a hell of a lot more comfortable with that shit storm simply because it was playstation owners getting the shitty end of the stick.

I also recall news abd games publications willing to say that this was a crappy move by ms.

But thats not happening with epic.
 

Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,081
Halifax, NS
It really disturbs me that people only remember the good examples of review bombing. Do any of you recall what happened to Total War Rome II? It got review bombed by some neo-nazis who couldn't stop complaining about "women in ma videogames!" because of a change that in a certain period allowed more women general to show up in the game. Where were you, then? Any of you? Those who are in favor of review bombing and those who don't? Hell, where was Valve?

Like, fuck Randy Pitchford (a con man and pedophile) and Gearbox (a company who defrauded Sega to diverge millions into the development of Borderlands 2), but don't come in here telling me that review bombing is helpful because it helped in a couple of cases. The people who worked on Rome II did not deserve that shit.

Alright, so is your position that because this tool CAN be used for a negative cause, that it should NEVER be used?

Because we don't follow this logic in literally any other scenario, in any other way of life. Bad people will use legitimate means to do bad things, what we can do is help people better understand how to identify the difference between a fight for justice/tolerance/consumer's rights versus a fight for inequality/intolerance/erosion of consumer rights, which Valve has with it taking less than 5 seconds to see a graph of when the majority of reviews came in and why. What it hurt at the time was the 30 day "recent" score on Steam, but ultimately didn't move the needle too far on the lifetime score.

Rome II sits at a lifetime 68% and a recent 69%, and I checked every recent (english) review, and it's back to people complaining about the game itself (mostly how the new "emperor edition" description may have described itself in a way that implied it contained all the DLC but doesn't). If you just outright deleted every single review during the review bomb period (about September 1, 2018 to October 31, 2018 going by the graph), lifetime score would rise to about 77%. Yeah, 77% would be a much nicer number to have than 68%, I won't sit here and argue it did "no" damage, but long term that campaign didn't do much, CA has continued to make more Total War games that are well reviewed, ultimately the world didn't care.

Hell, even the Borderlands review bombs aren't really "achieving" much. The lifetime score for both BL1 and BL2 are still 90+% even with the reviewbombs factored in, because the sheer number of reviews these games have had over the years makes any real coordinated effort meaningless. The recent score will taper off and return to normal after people lose the motivation to keep this up. It did do enough to grab Gearbox/Randy's attention, which ultimately was the sole purpose of the exercise, and now they (hopefully) have an understanding of a portion of the consumers' position on this.

If the EGS gambit fails and they don't see the sales numbers they expected, the hope is that they'll keep this event in mind and understand exactly why it failed.

I'm sorry but you're still not making sense.

In most cases 'review bombing' implies the person did not buy the game. If I leave I review about something I don't like on a game I bought that's just a regular review. That's not a 'review bomb'

Review bombing on steam directly implies you bought the game, because Steam only includes reviews from purchasers in the overall score. (it also excludes owners who received the game for free, or reviews made during "Free Weekends" by non-owners)
 
Nov 8, 2017
13,099
So its one extreme or the other? Theres no middleground where you can push back without being an insufferable child?

The middle ground is that you can leave reviews but off topic review bombs get automatically detected and users are given the option to include them if they want to see what all the fuss is about.

Which is the system that we have right now.

User reviews are not a sacrosanct institution. It's a mechanism for consumer feedback. If you leave a bad review of a THQ nordic game because they had an AMA on 8chan that's technically off topic regarding the strict qualities of the game but why should that be against the rules?
 

YuriLowell

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,546
What publishers actually want is a store front without any user reviews at all. Just a score of their choosing and some links to youtube influencers they've paid.

All games will have 5 or 4.75 stars and a quote from famous youtuber: "best game evah!"

Epic just might offer them exactly that.

Of course they want this. Why would they want any negative press around their game.

They want to control everything that is said about their game.
 

Tobor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,429
Richmond, VA
Bad reviews lead to lower sales.

That's the whole reason why some publishers are so upset about gamers having this ability.

If it didn't have an effect, you wouldn't see this much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
This is revisionist history. During the entire lead-up to that year's E3, MS was just getting crapped on left and right on any and all platforms available to consumers. Even Sony themselves got in on it. This led to a prevalent narrative (that still persists with a sizable amount of people today!) that the Xbox One was horribly anti-consumer. One directly led to the other.

Information doesn't magically transport into consumers' heads. It was people communicating their displeasure at MS's decisions that led to low pre-order numbers. If every person who disliked the direction they were heading kept quiet, I doubt the pre-orders would have been nearly as dire as they were.

I think you're misinterpreting my position. I know that communication is important, I'm just stating it has to lead to the money, or it's ultimately not effective.

Microsoft was tone deaf to our complaints UNTIL the preorder numbers made them realize the situation was serious. The response was basically "fuck you, you'll buy this anyway" until they saw the numbers.

All I'm saying here is 2K and Randy won't respond to anything but the money either.

If Durante is correct and the review bombing does lead to reduced sales, then the problem will sort itself out. It won't be until Borderlands 4, but that's how it goes.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,800
So its one extreme or the other? Theres no middleground where you can push back without being an insufferable child?

I am 40 years old. I support the practice of review bombing when the reason for doing so is valid. Reacting to anti-consumer practices is not childish, it's what every responsible adult should be doing.
 
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