Racist Stereotypes in Smash Bros. Ultimates Spirits Mode

[MrPanic]

Since some people still seem to be debating the reasoning for picking Diddy, it's most certainly based on Deejay's iconic move, the Double Rolling Sobat.

In the Streetfighter games this move will lunge Deejay very far forward towards the enemy (especially in SF4 I remember him just flying across the screen with the ex version). Diddy is the only character in the game that has a move that's both visually and mechanically very similar to Deejay's move, so the pick to represent Deejay as a side b spamming Diddy is a very accurate reference to how Deejay was in his games (or at least way more accurate then just using a character that kicks).

Of course change the spirit since it's clearly a problem that shouldn't have been made, but making the argument that the reference is weak in the first place is very ignorant as well to the source material.

 

[Silent]

That's what the second part of my post addressing the contingency that it might be a mistake was for. Even if it was done by accident, it should not be left as-is.

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Right, but I'm saying that it wasn't done on accident either. As in, it wasn't done at all. "It" being "comparing black people to apes or thieves." They didn't suggest black people are similar to monkeys than any more than they suggested white people (Zangief) are similar to cats (Incineroar).

Again, Nintendo could change it as a nice, well-meaning gesture for those offended, but I don't think they did anything wrong. As such, I don't think they're obligated to change it at all. I would not condemn their silence on the matter, but at the same time I welcome a patch to change it.

 

[Pingal Pratyush]

Mod edit. Link removed.

 

[LostSkullKid]

They didn't suggest black people are similar to monkeys than any more than they suggested white people (Zangief) are similar to cats (Incineroar).

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Those aren't remotely similar situations. Cause I'm pretty fucking sure there's no history of belittling white people by comparing them to cats. I don't believe they were intentionally trying to compare black people to monkeys. But the implications that could be taken from these spirit battles are a lot worse than saying "white people are similar to cats".

 

[Death Penalty]

Right, but I'm saying that it wasn't done on accident either. As in, it wasn't done at all. "It" being "comparing black people to apes or thieves." They didn't suggest black people are similar to monkeys than any more than they suggested white people (Zangief) are similar to cats (Incineroar).

Again, Nintendo could change it as a nice, well-meaning gesture for those offended, but I don't think they did anything wrong. As such, I don't think they're obligated to change it at all. I would not condemn their silence on the matter, but at the same time I welcome a patch to change it.

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I know exactly what you're saying and I don't think it's really up for debate. Black characters are being represented by literal apes and monkeys. Whether it was intentional or a stroke of ignorance might be something that can be discussed, but the fact of the matter is that that imagery is so loaded and damaging that it should not be left up even if it was done without any knowledge or malicious intent. In this sense, yes, Nintendo accidentally used racist imagery and no it should not be allowed to remain.

 

[Deleted member 27771]

I know exactly what you're saying and I don't think it's really up for debate. Black characters are being represented by literal apes and monkeys. Whether it was intentional or a stroke of ignorance might be something that can be discussed, but the fact of the matter is that that imagery is so loaded and damaging that it should not be left up even if it was done without any knowledge or malicious intent. In this sense, yes, Nintendo accidentally used racist imagery and no it should not be allowed to remain.

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That is a ton of word to describe the issue. I get that you understand it but damn that's a ton of words to excuse it.

Just a stoke of ignorance.

 

[Unknownlight]

Thanks for being one of twelve in the thread to point it out. If it was just DK maybe we wouldn't be having this thread. But you know there's also that Diddy issue.

It's a thing.

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Haven't read all 22 pages, but I am guessing someone pointed out that Diddy and Dee Jay are probably because they both use variations on capoeira, right?

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Thread's too large. No one's reading anyone's posts, really.

Is the discussion currently "It wasn't intentional, but it should be changed" or is the argument about if it was intentional or not? The discussion seems to restart every page.

 

[Death Penalty]

That is a ton of word to describe the issue. I get that you understand it but damn that's a ton of words to excuse it.

Just a stoke of ignorance.

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???

 

[Gulgan Shulgan]

Really didn't see the problem with Mr. Sandman or Tac when I got to them, honestly didn't think anything of it, they both made enough sense to me.

But when I got to Dee Jay I did think "wow, that's kinda racist"
The only thing I could think of is that Dee Jay does a lot of attacks with his barefeet and Diddy does have a few kicking attacks (that he of course is barefoot for), but if that actually is the reason then that's a real stretch.

 

[ShinySunny]

True story.
Our company removed the word "Monkey" from our Password generator because of similar situation as OP stated due to the negative meaning that can be associated with the word.
The PW system would create a "AnimalNumbersSpecialcharacters" password when a customer requested a new password so they can easily remember it and to reset or keep the PW if they wanted to.
We did that so people can easily remember the PW.
This was like in the early 10s when everyone was still dumb with technology.
A few months later, we got an angry email over the PW system when someone emailed to CS that the company was targeting her due to her race by implying that she was stupid by sending her a PW as 'Monkey----."

It wasn't intentional, but boy, did we get yelled at from higher ups.
We redid the whole website, new PW generator, and telling people to Reset their PW after inputting in the generated one.
Maybe Nintendo also did it unintentional, but at least give them a chance to explain and fix it.

 

[FantasticMrFoxdie]

Yeah No

I noticed it immediately with a wtf reaction

 

[Caz]

This only compounds how disheartening it is to see how little representation Super Smash Bros. has for people of color when it comes to playable characters.

Uh, other examples from Nintendo? I definitely agree it's racist but the "no surprise" is interesting.

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Jynx.png
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Jynx.jpg

 

[Deleted member 6539]

.

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Why post this bullshit?

 

[Papercuts]

Since some people still seem to be debating the reasoning for picking Diddy, it's most certainly based on Deejay's iconic move, the Double Rolling Sobat.

In the Streetfighter games this move will lunge Deejay very far forward towards the enemy (especially in SF4 I remember him just flying across the screen with the ex version). Diddy is the only character in the game that has a move that's both visually and mechanically very similar to Deejay's move, so the pick to represent Deejay as a side b spamming Diddy is a very accurate reference to how Deejay was in his games (or at least way more accurate then just using a character that kicks).

Of course change the spirit since it's clearly a problem that shouldn't have been made, but making the argument that the reference is weak in the first place is very ignorant as well to the source material.

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I do get the idea behind referencing that but she was right there nintendo pls

Gif is a slowed down hitbox for Smash 4 but the move is the same which is basically has the exact attack for her side smash (and I guess to add on has a bunch of kick focused attacks in general). It's weird that they are good at hitting pretty close to references but have a much closer one for Dee Jay already.

 

[CO_Andy]

I do get the idea behind referencing that but she was right there nintendo pls

It's weird that they are good at hitting pretty close to references but have a much closer one for Dee Jay already.

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Samus isn't exactly known for having an upbeat personality, which Diddy Kong most certainly has.

 

[Entryhazard]

I do get the idea behind referencing that but she was right there nintendo pls

Gif is a slowed down hitbox for Smash 4 but the move is the same which is basically has the exact attack for her side smash (and I guess to add on has a bunch of kick focused attacks in general). It's weird that they are good at hitting pretty close to references but have a much closer one for Dee Jay already.

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One reason I can possibly think of is that "ZSS spamming FSmash" was already used for Chun-Li and they're even both spirits in the same subzone (the SF2 tournament area) where IIRC every spirit is also represented by a different character
Should have probably gone with Bayonetta spamming the Side B (which however is what Yuri does too) or someone like Ken spamming the FSmash

 

[Bizu]

God, didnt see any of these spirits yet. But of course, is definetely racist.

 

[Sailent]

Right, but I'm saying that it wasn't done on accident either. As in, it wasn't done at all. "It" being "comparing black people to apes or thieves." They didn't suggest black people are similar to monkeys than any more than they suggested white people (Zangief) are similar to cats (Incineroar).

Again, Nintendo could change it as a nice, well-meaning gesture for those offended, but I don't think they did anything wrong. As such, I don't think they're obligated to change it at all. I would not condemn their silence on the matter, but at the same time I welcome a patch to change it.

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"You fucking cat" is not an insult in any part of the world.

"You fucking monkey" is.

 

[The Turbanator]

This only compounds how disheartening it is to see how little representation Super Smash Bros. has for people of color when it comes to playable characters.

Jynx.png
Jynx.gif
Jynx.jpg

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Jynx is ganguro/gyaru, not black.

 

[Ikaruga]

why the fuck didn't they just use little mac for mr sandman

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Because they didn't even think about the issue I guess, I had to look at the images for a few minutes to find out what the problem with the spirits was either, you know, if you aren't racist or looking for racism such things are less obvious. I had to think about the cancerous Twitch chat to realize what the issue was here. This isn't really doing Nintendos IPs any justice though as Diddy Kong and Donkey Kong are high profile characters in their arsenal and I bet they weren't exclusively paired with afro-american looking spirits, were they?

 

[JusDoIt]

Because they didn't even think about the issue I guess, I had to look at the images for a few minutes to find out what the problem with the spirits was either, you know, if you aren't racist or looking for racism such things are less obvious.

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You're colorblind. You don't, like, you know, even see race, man.

 

[Ikaruga]

You're colorblind. You don't, like, you know, even see race, man.

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For a matter of fact I am indeed color blind, I don't know what your remark means though and I also don't think you know what color blindness is all about. That said I can differentiate between skin tones to a degree.

I think if it get's traction Nintendo will patch it. I think with thousands of spirits this was just a complete oversight and about something Japanese game developers are probably not as sensitive to as the rest of the world.

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The USA seems to be a very toxic environment to live in and you can bet Nintendo didn't do this intentionally, I can even imagine their thought process "melee spirit goes with melee character, done". They will fix it, if it garners enough attention, if not, then they won't.

 

[Caz]

Jynx is ganguro/gyaru, not black.

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She's not ganguro (and even if she was, ganguro literally translates to "blackface").

 

[Twenty7kvn]

Because they didn't even think about the issue I guess, I had to look at the images for a few minutes to find out what the problem with the spirits was either, you know, if you aren't racist or looking for racism such things are less obvious.

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You don't have to be looking for racism to see it. You either have to experience it or know the history of this kind of racism to see it right away.

 

[Powerofthecloud]

For a matter of fact I am indeed color blind, I don't know what your remark means though and I also don't think you know what color blindness is all about. That said I can differentiate between skin tones to a degree.

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The first part is a metaphor. Not literally colorblind.

The USA seems to be a very toxic environment to live in and you can bet Nintendo didn't do this intentionally, I can even imagine their thought process "melee spirit goes with melee character, done". They will fix it, if it garners enough attention, if not, then they won't.

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I'm not sure what this has to do with the US?

 

[Wood Man]

I was just thinking about this the other day when I was fighting Diddy for Dee Jay's spirit. Immediately I was like WTF!?!

 

[Finale Fireworker]

it seems like in America racists like to compare afro americans to monkeys or something.

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I'm going to use this quote as a jumping-off point.

The racist tradition of comparing or belittling people of African heritage as simian animals is a global cultural standard that everybody should be aware of. Before Darwinism, Europeans portrayed Africa and its inhabitants as animalistic and simian because they perceived Africans as sub-human. They weren't real people. They were animals, like apes, and therefore colonization, slavery, and other exploitative practices at the expense of dark-skinned people was justified.

After Darwinism established that all humans are descended from ape-like creatures, racists had to change their argument because the notion that all humans evolved from the same stock terrified them. They began to portray and argue that Africans were less-evolved than their lighter-skinned counterparts. This is the basis for Scientific Racism like phrenology. It is the argument that Africans and dark-skinned people are closer to animals than they are humans. For hundreds of years, Europeans portrayed Africans and dark-skinned people as ape-like animals with monkey-like features as a way to demonstrate their intellectual and moral inferiority. It is extremely prevalent in media from all over Europe and America because it was a massively popular flavor of racism worldwide.

You can entertain the argument that some Asian countries, especially a traditionally isolationist country like Japan, would be less familiar with widespread depiction of Africans as apes. It was excessive in both art and pseudo-science for centuries throughout Europe and the United States, but since Japan had closed borders and few cultural imports, maybe they just don't know. But Japan has its own sordid history with offensive depictions of blackface and exaggerated African features that have come in to question and under scrutiny for decades. Racism does not rely on context. (Not to mention its 2018, not 1853.)


I think it's unlikely that the monkey depictions (and that of the burglar) seen in these spirit battles were intended to be racist caricatures. I think it's more likely nobody in development considered the poor taste of matching the game's black characters with this sort of imagery, which is unfortunate and worthy of criticism. I'm personally surprised this didn't come up during localization, which is its own failing. Companies like Nintendo have an obligation to be aware and sensitive to the global expectation of things like race when producing content for a worldwide market. So it doesn't matter if you didn't think of it before you released it, your responsibility to address it is still the same.

And think of it like this: whether someone intended to reinforce centuries-old racist caricatures or only accidentally reinforced centuries-old racist caricatures doesn't really make a difference when considering its impact on the affected groups. So if it was an accident, they should make it right, because why would anyone choose to keep doing that after learning what they'd done?

 

[Ikaruga]

I'm not sure what this has to do with the US?

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Oh, well you know. White men did some really cruel and terrible things to the native Americans for example, they also used persons of color as slaves in the past. That's something you can't ever really shake off, especially with jerks that seem to use their inferiority complex to attack people that look different. So I understand why this is offending a certain demographic but only after thinking about it, after it was pointed out to me. The issue is that it's something a Japanese company can't relate to some things will accidentally look racist because no one in Japan would think "oh look, it's a monkey and a black boxer" -they would think "oh it's Donkey Kong and he's aided by that boxer dude from punch out" instead -even the programmers of the game.

Someone asked how this could pass QA, well QA is mostly making sure the translations are spot on, the game content of Smash Bros. Ultimate is made in Japan.

The black person ape racist imagery has been around for centuries and is still a common thing. Not obscure at all.

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In Japan? Everywhere around the world? Can you prove this assumption? If monkeys were that bad, they certainly wouldn't get a place in the Japanese and Chinese horoscope, don't you think? You know, incidentally 2019 is the year of the monkey. Let's see what the Japanese think about that zodiac sign: They are clever and skillful in grand-scale operations and are smart when making financial deals. They are inventive, original and are able to solve the most difficult problems with ease.

 

[Boiled Goose]

I'll be honest, I did a double take at these the first time I came across them. I'm not sure how they managed to get through, but they should definitely be changed. There are plenty of fitting characters that could take the place of the Kongs here.

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My only concern with patching them out is

Those aren't remotely similar situations. Cause I'm pretty fucking sure there's no history of belittling white people by comparing them to cats. I don't believe they were intentionally trying to compare black people to monkeys. But the implications that could be taken from these spirit battles are a lot worse than saying "white people are similar to cats".

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There are spirit battles with DK for white characters and there are are battles with dark skinned spirits embodied by other characters.

Should DK and diddy not be used for any human spirits? Or only for spirits of certain complexions

Because they didn't even think about the issue I guess, I had to look at the images for a few minutes to find out what the problem with the spirits was either, you know, if you aren't racist or looking for racism such things are less obvious. I had to think about the cancerous Twitch chat to realize what the issue was here. This isn't really doing Nintendos IPs any justice though as Diddy Kong and Donkey Kong are high profile characters in their arsenal and I bet they weren't exclusively paired with afro-american looking spirits, were they?

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They weren't of course. And dark skinned spirits used other fighters like little mac.

Which is why I think this is mostly looking for issues where they might be none.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Oh, well you know. White men did some really cruel and terrible things to the native Americans for example, they also used persons of color as slaves in the past. That's something you can't ever really shake off, especially with jerks that seem to use their inferiority complex to attack people that look different. So I understand why this is offending a certain demographic but only after thinking about it, after it was pointed out to me. The issue is that it's something a Japanese company can't relate to some things will accidentally look racist because no one in Japan would think "oh look, it's a monkey and a black boxer" -they would think "oh it's Donkey Kong and he's aided by that boxer dude from punch out" instead -even the programmers of the game.

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Yeah. I wonder.


You only have the luxury of needing to "think about it" because you don't live it. It's not your life. Consider yourself fortunate.

 

[Death Penalty]

My only concern with patching them out is


There are spirit battles with DK for white characters and there are are battles with dark skinned spirits embodied by other characters.

Should DK and diddy not be used for any human spirits? Or only for spirits of certain complexions


They weren't of course. And dark skinned spirits used other fighters like little mac.

Which is why I think this is mostly looking for issues where they might be none.

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It's a lot simpler than you're making it. Don't associate a race that's been belittled and oppressed for centuries by simian comparisons with apes. The reason it's fine that Kongs portray white people is because there's no history there. It isn't harmful imagery that's been used to undermine rights and human status. The other case is and is even still in use. It may have been done unintentionally but it still needs to go.

 

[Lotus]

Should DK and diddy not be used for any human spirits?

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Don't use em for black people, done.

 

[chicken_pasta]

I find it very interesting how Americans, aka citizens of one of the most racist countries in the planet, love being outraged on the internet about the tiniest things, but at the same time do nothing real to change the fucked up way their country work. Guess fighting ghosts behind a screen is easier than actually doing something.

 

[Ikaruga]

You only have the luxury of needing to "think about it" because you don't live it. It's not your life. Consider yourself fortunate.

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Sure thing, that's also what I wanted to point out with Nintendo, Japan is a different environment compared to the west and especially to the US and I don't think anyone was doing this intentionally, their ethnicity is 98,5% Japanese and the Afro Americans are listed in the "other" category of 0,6% -meaning most Japanese won't interact with different ethnicities at all(and even if they do, what are the chances they would think about identifying a person of color with a monkey), making it hard to identify this kind of issue.

Like I said, if this topic garners enough attention Nintendo will likely change the spirits as this must have been unintentional for a family friendly company like them and while I'm not Japanese I am not from the US or even America and no one I know is comparing apes to black people around here.

 

[JusDoIt]

I find it very interesting how Americans, aka citizens of one of the most racist countries in the planet, love being outraged on the internet about the tiniest things, but at the same time do nothing real to change the fucked up way their country work. Guess fighting ghosts behind a screen is easier than actually doing something.

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I find it very interesting how you naive as hell but condescending at the same time.

 

[Twenty7kvn]

Sure thing, that's also what I wanted to point out with Nintendo, Japan is a different environment compared to the west and especially to the US and I don't think anyone was doing this intentionally, their ethnicity is 98,5% Japanese and the Afro Americans are listed in the "other" category of 0,6% -meaning most Japanese won't interact with different ethnicities at all(and even if they do, what are the chances they would think about identifying a person of color with a monkey), making it hard to identify this kind of issue.

Like I said, if this topic garners enough attention Nintendo will likely change the spirits as this must have been unintentional for a family friendly company like them.

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Nintendo is a Multi-billion globe company, with multiple branches around the world. It's their responsibility to make sure shit like this doesn't happen.

 

[chicken_pasta]

I find it very interesting how you naive as hell but condescending at the same time.

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Please tweet about it to make a change

 

[Twenty7kvn]

I find it very interesting how Americans, aka citizens of one of the most racist countries in the planet, love being outraged on the internet about the tiniest things, but at the same time do nothing real to change the fucked up way their country work. Guess fighting ghosts behind a screen is easier than actually doing something.

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I swear ya'll but to get a mofo band, with the shit ya'll posting.

 

[JusDoIt]

Please tweet about it to make a change

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Yeah, because that's all we do. Maybe my people should stop tweeting and get beaten and murdered some more for our freedom.

 

[Twenty7kvn]

Please tweet about it to make a change

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Why are you in hear?

 

[Ikaruga]

Nintendo is a Multi-billion globe company, with multiple branches around the world. It's their responsibility to make sure shit like this doesn't happen.

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You can't make sure you aren't insulting anyone with your content nowadays, besides, Diddy Kong and Donkey Kong aren't mere monkeys, they are beloved mascots with their own games and here we have two spirits that are from fighting games that are persons of color, I've seen them powered with different spirits as well and they all fit the theme of being a melee-type spirit.

 

[D i Z]

I find it very interesting how Americans, aka citizens of one of the most racist countries in the planet, love being outraged on the internet about the tiniest things, but at the same time do nothing real to change the fucked up way their country work. Guess fighting ghosts behind a screen is easier than actually doing something.

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Care to elaborate on what exactly Americans aren't doing and how America is more racist than anywhere else that's completely fucked up on racial representation?

 

[Twenty7kvn]

You can't make sure you aren't insulting anyone with your content nowadays, besides, Diddy Kong and Donkey Kong aren't mere monkeys, they are beloved mascots with their own games and here we have two spirits that are from the boxing game punch out that are persons of color, I've seen them powered with different spirits as well and they all fit the theme of being a melee-type spirit.

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Yes they can this type of racist stereotypes aren't new, and Nintendo has NOA who should have at least spotted this. You guys have to stop making excuses for these companies, and listen to people in this thread who tell you this shit is bad and they should've known better, some of us have actually experienced so racist shit.

 

[Deleted member 6539]

Sure thing, that's also what I wanted to point out with Nintendo, Japan is a different environment compared to the west and especially to the US and I don't think anyone was doing this intentionally, their ethnicity is 98,5% Japanese and the Afro Americans are listed in the "other" category of 0,6% -meaning most Japanese won't interact with different ethnicities at all(and even if they do, what are the chances they would think about identifying a person of color with a monkey), making it hard to identify this kind of issue.

Like I said, if this topic garners enough attention Nintendo will likely change the spirits as this must have been unintentional for a family friendly company like them and while I'm not Japanese I am not from the US or even America and no one I know is comparing apes to black people around here.

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The "Japan doesn't know any better" excuse is bullshit in 2018. It's always been bullshit.


Historically, Japan is no stranger to blacks...


There's no excuse. Nintendo has a huge North American arm that should have caught this.


Also stop pushing this fallacy that only America has a race problem.


Australia is deplorably racist, as people of colour are reminded when they speak up


"There's no question that Australia is a far more racist country than its political class like to admit. No amount of spin should be capable of disorientating hard facts sufficiently to obfuscate that reality. Yet – incredibly – I still receive abusive "mail" ridiculing me for jumping at shadows, protesting it just ain't so.

I understand how a certain amount of privilege in life provides a buffer to the kinds of racialised discrimination, prejudice and hate speech that daily infects the lives of people of colour in Australia. But surely by now, in the heavily media saturated environment we inhabit, claiming colour-blindness, whether in an Australian context or global society, isn't possible. Yet, such selective awareness persists."

 

[sapien85]

Oh, well you know. White men did some really cruel and terrible things to the native Americans for example, they also used persons of color as slaves in the past. That's something you can't ever really shake off, especially with jerks that seem to use their inferiority complex to attack people that look different. So I understand why this is offending a certain demographic but only after thinking about it, after it was pointed out to me. The issue is that it's something a Japanese company can't relate to some things will accidentally look racist because no one in Japan would think "oh look, it's a monkey and a black boxer" -they would think "oh it's Donkey Kong and he's aided by that boxer dude from punch out" instead -even the programmers of the game.

Someone asked how this could pass QA, well QA is mostly making sure the translations are spot on, the game content of Smash Bros. Ultimate is made in Japan.

In Japan? Everywhere around the world? Can you prove this assumption? If monkeys were that bad, they certainly wouldn't get a place in the Japanese and Chinese horoscope, don't you think? You know, incidentally 2019 is the year of the monkey. Let's see what the Japanese think about that zodiac sign: They are clever and skillful in grand-scale operations and are smart when making financial deals. They are inventive, original and are able to solve the most difficult problems with ease.

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Last I checked Nintendo is a huge company with American and European sections. Also monkeys are not considered bad or evil in the US so I don't know what horoscope has to do with it. It's only bad when people are equated with animals because of race.

 

[sapien85]

Sure thing, that's also what I wanted to point out with Nintendo, Japan is a different environment compared to the west and especially to the US and I don't think anyone was doing this intentionally, their ethnicity is 98,5% Japanese and the Afro Americans are listed in the "other" category of 0,6% -meaning most Japanese won't interact with different ethnicities at all(and even if they do, what are the chances they would think about identifying a person of color with a monkey), making it hard to identify this kind of issue.

Like I said, if this topic garners enough attention Nintendo will likely change the spirits as this must have been unintentional for a family friendly company like them and while I'm not Japanese I am not from the US or even America and no one I know is comparing apes to black people around here.

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Comparing black people to apes didn't even start in America it predates the Creation of the US. It's very common in Europe as well. Just watch a soccer match.

 

[Deleted member 38050]

I mean, this is bad, but everyone saying "well I'm not gonna buy the game now because of this", stop kidding yourselves- you were never going to buy it anyway.

 

[Lotus]

I mean, this is bad, but everyone saying "well I'm not gonna buy the game now because of this", stop kidding yourselves- you were never going to buy it anyway.

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Who said this other than one very obvious troll 10 pages ago?

 

[Neoxon]

Just curious, how long did it take Nintendo to respond to the Mr. Game & Watch feather problem?

 

[AztecComplex]

Just curious, how long did it take Nintendo to respond to the Mr. Game & Watch feather problem?

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Erasing a feather from a sticker is considerably easier than changing two event playable fights with ore established stickers, enemy AI, conditions and winnable loot. I don't think these are comparable.