• Light/Dark
  • Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

Racist Stereotypes in Smash Bros. Ultimates Spirits Mode

Danstanster

Danstanster

Member
Oct 25, 2017
469
RagnarokX said:
All of those spirits are black characters like Sandman and Dee Jay but they are not on Kongs. They chose fighters for the spirits based on their moves, not to make a malicious racist message.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Ok I understand what that evidence shows, I don't want to go all the way to my switch and find previous battles. Did Apes represent any other humanoid characters? I'm asking not setting anyone up.

But I don't see color. I see species. It's pretty dehumanizing to be representing a character as something less than a human that (representation) has a history of derragatory use worldwide, if it's tone deaf accidental shorthand, it has bad implications and is the fist thing lots of people connected it to so it's prob best to figure out something else or double down.
 
Jump_Button

Jump_Button

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,787
Don't carry pick

Would it be better if Smash was only whites? NO and it the idea's and moves that where thought about. but saying that given context and if you do carry pick it looks like not a good idea to pick them maybe japan dont have that context
 
aiswyda

aiswyda

Member
Aug 11, 2018
3,093
Oniletter said:
What a weak gotcha. Then change FE for Pokemon and my point still stands.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

what part is a weak gotcha? I like FE but the character creator is abysmal in terms of offering POC options and it's absolutely a trope that bad dad = brown.

Also all of the games you've listed still have the default/promo character (for character creators)/main character as white/light skinned. The darker skin tone options are way more limited as well. Nintendo is improving but still has a long way to go.
 
LincolnTunnel

LincolnTunnel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
489
New Jersey
aiswyda said:
what part is a weak gotcha? I like FE but the character creator is abysmal in terms of offering POC options and it's absolutely a trope that bad dad = brown.

Also all of the games you've listed still have the default/promo character (for character creators)/main character as white/light skinned. The darker skin tone options are way more limited as well. Nintendo is improving but still has a long way to go.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I completely agree that the character creators in Fire Emblem are garbage when it comes to representing PoC, but isn't Validar more "generic evil guy" grey than brown?
 
AztecComplex

AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
Order said:
Using Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong for black characters is fucked up

But this is gaming side so I'll just wait for the flood of people to say how it isn't racist
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Donkey Kong was actually featured as the final boss in Punch Out Wii. Mr Sandman was the toughest fighter in that game before you got a chance to fight DK. It fits but I can see why people would make this unfortunate racist connection by mistake.

That Diddy Kong one though I can't defend.
 
Danstanster

Danstanster

Member
Oct 25, 2017
469
RagnarokX said:
All of those spirits are black characters like Sandman and Dee Jay but they are not on Kongs. They chose fighters for the spirits based on their moves, not to make a malicious racist message.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Moves and appearance. At least that is what a wiki says I mean.

I'm just saying from what I can remember and defer from googling. Yes not all characters of color in the game are represented by dk or diddy. But the two mentioned above are two if not the only two human characters represented by them in the game. racism can come from prejudice, and a form of racial discrimination that stems from conscious and unconscious, personal prejudice.
 
AztecComplex

AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
Somnid said:
Diddy is the one that makes the least sense (I get they were going for cartwheel = kicking) but there might have been a more diplomatic way to do that. Sandman/DK is a definitely a nod to Sandman/DK being the final boss. Tak, they could easily change the color but it seems like they were trying to pallet match the character.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This bears repeating: the Mr Sandman/DK thing makes sense to anyone who played Punch Out Wii to completion. It's the DJ/Diddy that I cant explain.
 
AztecComplex

AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
This thread has me wanting to replay Punch Out Wii badly. Such an amazing game!

Goddammit, Era now I'm salivating for a new one on Switch. Or at least give me an HD Remaster!
 
RagnarokX

RagnarokX

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,773
Danstanster said:
Moves and appearance. At least that is what a wiki says I mean.

I'm just saying from what I can remember and defer from googling. Yes not all characters of color in the game are represented by dk or diddy. But the two mentioned above are two if not the only two human characters represented by them in the game. racism can come from prejudice, and a form of racial discrimination that stems from conscious and unconscious, personal prejudice.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Blanka from Street Fighter is a green DK with a screw attack. I've only seen a third the spirits in the game and didn't memorize them all so can't give a definitive answer. Not a Kong, but Zangeif is Incineroar, so it's not like they stuck to humans for humans.

I agree that Diddy was a poor choice, but I can see where they were going with DK for Sandman since they were both superbosses of Punchout. And Giant Little Mac is used for the Giga Mac fight and regular Mac for Piston Hondo.
 
Terraforce

Terraforce

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
18,917
RagnarokX said:
All of those spirits are black characters like Sandman and Dee Jay but they are not on Kongs. They chose fighters for the spirits based on their moves, not to make a malicious racist message.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Why are you acting as if this is some all or nothing thing? That's just silly. Just because an artist draws Obama looking like a monkey but doesn't do the same to Oprah doesn't somehow negate him from being racist or having potential discriminatory undertones whether subconscious or not. Especially when it would be beyond a freaking stretch to make someone Twintelle based on DK or Diddy. No shit she wouldn't work for either of them lol

I truly believe this is just a string of coincidences, but people are justified for upset by the completely tone deaf decision made here. Diddy in particular.
 
WrenchNinja

WrenchNinja

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,740
Canada
Oniletter said:
How interesting that you are fixated on that one little snipped instead of adressing the actual point I was trying to make. You'd think someone would be a tad more charitable over Christmas, but I guess that's too much to ask from you.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Im fixated on it because it's infuriating. Your larger point is the same old dumb "dont criticise Nintendo" bullshit that gets trotted out any time any minority has an issue with representation. And surprise, not everyone celebrates or cares about Christmas.
 
Danstanster

Danstanster

Member
Oct 25, 2017
469
RagnarokX said:
Blanka from Street Fighter is a green DK with a screw attack. I've only seen a third the spirits in the game and didn't memorize them all so can't give a definitive answer. Not a Kong, but Zangeif is Incineroar, so it's not like they stuck to humans for humans.

I agree that Diddy was a poor choice, but I can see where they were going with DK for Sandman since they were both superbosses of Punchout. And Giant Little Mac is used for the Giga Mac fight and regular Mac for Piston Hondo.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Thank you for examples. Yeah I can see where they were going but I can't see how they didn't notice other things.

Tangentially related Blanka was originally an African man Anabebe raised by lions, managed and "tamed" by Rothenburger. He was kept in shackles.
sf-30-arcade-4-620x246.jpg
 
RagnarokX

RagnarokX

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,773
Terraforce said:
Why are you acting as if this is some all or nothing thing? That's just silly. Just because an artist draws Obama looking like a monkey but doesn't do the same to Oprah doesn't somehow negate him from being racist or having potential discriminatory undertones whether subconscious or not. Especially when it would be beyond a freaking stretch to make someone Twintelle based on DK or Diddy. No shit she wouldn't work for either of them lol
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That wasn't my point. It just looks worse if look at them in a vacuum. The post I was replying to with those spirits seemed to be assuming intent based on that.
Danstanster said:
Thank you for examples. Yeah I can see where they were going but I can't see how they didn't notice other things.

Tangentially related Blanka was originally an African man Anabebe raised by lions, managed and "tamed" by Rothenburger. He was kept in shackles.
sf-30-arcade-4-620x246.jpg
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Woah, crazy. The Blanka they ended up going with was a white guy who got mutated.

As an opposite example, here's Candy Kong as Bayonetta:
ga8zWHG.jpg
 
Oniletter

Oniletter

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,245
WrenchNinja said:
Im fixated on it because it's infuriating. Your larger point is the same old dumb "dont criticise Nintendo" bullshit that gets trotted out any time any minority has an issue with representation. And surprise, not everyone celebrates or cares about Christmas.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yep. A nuanced analysis and categorisation of Nintendo's game output is " don't criticise Nintendo bullshit".

" Not everyone celebrates Christmas" is some peak irony in a thread that is at it's heart about different cultural taboos and the resulting ignorance offending people of a different culture.
 
WrenchNinja

WrenchNinja

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,740
Canada
Oniletter said:
Yep. A nuanced analysis and categorisation of Nintendo's game output is " don't criticise Nintendo bullshit".

" Not everyone celebrates Christmas" is some peak irony in a thread that is at it's heart about different cultural taboos and the resulting ignorance offending people of a different culture.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Are you for real with this persecution shit? Are you going to start a war with Starbucks next? I'm sorry I'm not being nicer to you on your holiday while you defend the big game company from people wanting better from them.
 
Danstanster

Danstanster

Member
Oct 25, 2017
469
RagnarokX said:
That wasn't my point. It just looks worse if look at them in a vacuum. The post I was replying to with those spirits seemed to be assuming intent based on that.

Woah, crazy. The Blanka they ended up going with was a white guy who got mutated.

As an opposite example, here's Candy Kong as Bayonetta:
ga8zWHG.jpg
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yeah a guy who I think originally in Japan drank chlorophyll to appear green to blend in. Kudos to importing screenshots and putting out effort. I am lazy
 
big_z

big_z

Member
Nov 2, 2017
7,797
It took me a few seconds before it clicked just seeing the diddy kong one. I don't recall any games press or influencers calling this out so maybe it's not apparent unless you're looking for it. Now that it's been pointed out it's pretty obvious. I dont own the game so i cant tell if the diddy/donkey are good analogs for the character fights theyre supposed to represent but that villager one kind of cements the other two. You can have an evil thief villager without him being black.
 
Danstanster

Danstanster

Member
Oct 25, 2017
469
big_z said:
It took me a few seconds before it clicked just seeing the diddy kong one. I don't recall any games press or influencers calling this out so maybe it's not apparent unless you're looking for it. Now that it's been pointed out it's pretty obvious. I dont own the game so i cant tell if the diddy/donkey are good analogs for the character fights theyre supposed to represent but that villager one kind of cements the other two. You can have an evil thief villager without him being black.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
They are really kicking themselves not giving K. Rool boxing gloves as an alt costume
 
Oni

Oni

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
311
Know I've got a switch under the tree and reading this has kinda put a dampner on that :(
 
pleaseinsertdisctwo

pleaseinsertdisctwo

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
14,991
User Banned (2 weeks): Hostility and dismissive concerns surrounding offensive stereotypes; previous infractions
why are you guys so fucking overdramatic. I doubt it was intentional.
 
Burning Justice

Burning Justice

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
500
Yeah, I did a double-take when I saw DK representing Mr. Sandman in that spirit battle. Can't believe no one at NOA noticed that.
 
soviet prince

soviet prince

Banned
Aug 26, 2018
43
Kentucky
User Banned (Permanent): Dismissing concerns about harmful stereotypes. Doubling down after ban. Account in junior phase.
There nothing racist about these it's just another example of people making things into something it's not. If your offended by these it's on you
 
ClickyCal'

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,661
big_z said:
It took me a few seconds before it clicked just seeing the diddy kong one. I don't recall any games press or influencers calling this out so maybe it's not apparent unless you're looking for it. Now that it's been pointed out it's pretty obvious. I dont own the game so i cant tell if the diddy/donkey are good analogs for the character fights theyre supposed to represent but that villager one kind of cements the other two. You can have an evil thief villager without him being black.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
They picked that villager alt because the purple and black. It originally had a light skin look, but that was changed after e3.
 

Deleted member 3017

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,653
BringBackSonics

BringBackSonics

Member
Oct 27, 2017
45,156
Seattle
Intentional or not (I err on the side of not intentional), it still is problematic, has horrible optics and comes off as tone deaf at best. It needs to be removed fairly quickly, although we are in the holiday season so it might have to wait till the first of the year
 
Danstanster

Danstanster

Member
Oct 25, 2017
469
AztecComplex said:
I hate the use of this word that has taken over recently. It's become a crutch for someone to point out someone else's post without having to put any real thought or arguments forward. In other words: it's lazy.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It's better than the dot. I like woof better. The person who posted didn't put in a lot of effort writing a comment posted 25 times before. But yeah not my strongest moment. Trying to distract myself while I worry about folks sad on Xmas
 
FluxWaveZ

FluxWaveZ

Persona Central
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
10,887
Oniletter said:
Could you be anymore disingenuous and just out there to start a fight? We've been over this exact topic for literal years and reached a more than satisfactory conclusion why things are like they are.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
No, a satisfactory conclusion has not been reached, and my comment is in no way disingenuous.
Oniletter said:
Nintendo doesn't really develop the kind of single player story driven games people who post " more black characters in Smash!" are looking for. Nintendo just isn't Sony.

A lot if their games don't even feature humanoid characters. As for humanoid characters, they are almost always either:

1. Characters established literal decades ago ( Mario, Zelda, Samus)
2. Ensemble casts ( ARMS)
3. Games with character creators ( Animal Crossing, Fire Emblem, Splatoon).

You can play as various poc in 2 and 3. Ninteno isn't really creating new, defined "white" characters either.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
What kind of nonsense is "black characters only belong in story driven games"?
 
AztecComplex

AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
Danstanster said:
It's better than the dot. I like woof better. The person who posted didn't put in a lot of effort writing a comment posted 25 times before. But yeah not my strongest moment. Trying to distract myself while I worry about folks sad on Xmas
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It really isn't. At least the dot comes after a quote from someone you agree with and by doing that you're helping signal boost that which you agree with. The "yikes" thing is just lazy.

And I'll say it again: you guys are overreacting on the Mr. Sandman/DK Spirits thing. The optics aren't the best and some will inevitably take it the worst way possible but in Punch Out Wii Sandman was the very last boss until you realize DK was there as a secret last boss. It can't be repeated enough. The fact that Sandman is a black man is a very unfortunate coincidence in this case.

And just like my previous comment I'll also repeat this one: the Dee Jay/Diddy one is indefensible. This is the one you guys should zero in on.
 
MANUELF

MANUELF

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,241
Isnt Dee Jay a capoeira fighter? That means he mainly attacks with kicks and the only characters that do so are Zero Suit Samus, Bayonetta and Diddy Kong, Diddy Even has the typical hands on ground and move the legs in a circle movement that is common on capoeira
 
Jordie

Jordie

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
29
UK
I thought this was an inclusive and progressive forum created in response to the old website that fell short of those expectations.

I can't believe there are so many members here who are going out of their way to defend and excuse the representation of black people with monkeys.

Absolutely atrocious and I hope the mods step up and ban all who are siding with this.
 
AztecComplex

AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
MANUELF said:
Isnt Dee Jay a capoeira fighter? That means he mainly attacks with kicks and the only characters that do so are Zero Suit Samus, Bayonetta and Diddy Kong, Diddy Even has the typical hands on ground and move the legs in a circle movement that is common on capoeira
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This... actually makes some sense. Whatever choice they made it doesn't look to be intentional. But the optics aren't good that's for damn sure.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.