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Danstanster

Member
Oct 25, 2017
469
Yea, but he is already used for some other spirits, so they wanted to reference DK being a final boss like sandman, and being a heavy/big puncher. Little mac can work enough, but it's clear what the logic was. They didn't do it because they were racist. It's just tonedeaf.
ok, you have accurate points in what you are saying. So if that excuse is valid, tone deaf remove the dk one as evidence, the diddy one then. They made the villager skin dark to match the Kirby outfit?

Tone deaf/ignorant/racist it should have been caught and the interesting part will be how it's addressed. Will Sora/Nintendo cut it because it is racist, fire the one employee willing to take the fall. Promise to be more aware, or double down and back that all sprites are representing character not appearance and DK is their best foot forward.

I think the only interesting convos in this thread are guessing what Nintendo/Sora will do if anything. And weird to potentially have two racist patches for smash is wild.

So take each individual one than case by case. There should be some amount of accountability for somewhere in development to flag "problematic" spirits weren't caught by anyone to review and cut.

Is the Paz one fine? Did someone go yeeesh but nobody will care what we are referencing, even if it's a mature Topic to google to figure out the spirit reference.
 

Danstanster

Member
Oct 25, 2017
469
DK as Sandman seems like a cool reference, Diddy spamming side b seems like a very accurate representation of Deejay's gameplay, the feather has been removed afaik. Only Tac seems pretty unfortunate to me, though I can see that pick being made because that shirt was the closest recolor they had to Tac's outfit and them adding black Villagers later on after the backlash of there being none in the direct.
But you'd expect anyone to take a step back and not just go does this work, but is it ok, could this not be ok.
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,687
ok, you have accurate points in what you are saying. So if that excuse is valid, tone deaf remove the dk one as evidence, the diddy one then. They made the villager skin dark to match the Kirby outfit?

Tone deaf/ignorant/racist it should have been caught and the interesting part will be how it's addressed. Will Sora/Nintendo cut it because it is racist, fire the one employee willing to take the fall. Promise to be more aware, or double down and back that all sprites are representing character not appearance and DK is their best foot forward.

I think the only interesting convos in this thread are guessing what Nintendo/Sora will do if anything. And weird to potentially have two racist patches for smash is wild.

So take each individual one than case by case. There should be some amount of accountability for somewhere in development to flag "problematic" spirits weren't caught by anyone to review and cut.

Is the Paz one fine? Did someone go yeeesh but nobody will care what we are referencing, even if it's a mature Topic to google to figure out the spirit reference.
Villager one is fine too because they picked it before that alt had dark skin, which was added later.

Diddy one, yea it's honestly not too good. Its meant to reference the kicks from deejay, but it's not an obvious thing like dk in punchout. Either way, they should change these, but some overreactions in this thread are out of hand.
 

Deleted member 16657

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,198
The only one I can let slide is Sandman and DK, since they're the final and true final bosses of Punch-Out Wii
 

tapedeck

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,982
Yeah I raised my eyebrows when I encountered the Mr. Sandman spirit and was wondering if anyone else caught it and would give it attention. I don't think any malace or insult was intended by Nintendo but choosing DK for him is a REALLY terrible choice and painfully irresponsible oversight.

And I didn't even know about the Diddy-Dee Jay one..
 
Sep 12, 2018
215
This type of comment... Japan is "insular and homogenous" so you don't want to believe they might be racist or xenophobic, as if those things are unrelated.

oh i know they're racist and xenophobic. but the fact that they're so damn sheltered makes it at least a little less offensive to me than if a western company did this. its not excusable to me. thus the ":/"
 

StarBot

Banned
Jan 12, 2018
158

Danstanster

Member
Oct 25, 2017
469
Villager one is fine too because they picked it before that alt had dark skin, which was added later.

Diddy one, yea it's honestly not too good. Its meant to reference the kicks from deejay, but it's not an obvious thing like dk in punchout. Either way, they should change these, but some overreactions in this thread are out of hand.
So they added dark skin and changed code on a character in the game, and went well it didn't break the game so we are all good. Yeah it's the not too good part that is interesting idea.

I mean I'm bored on the forums so:

We used _______ who is a ________ and added ________ to make it our most accurate representation and nod to this spirit. Is the formula.

We gave the Paz spirit a bomb omb and her battle has bomb omb raining down that can kill her and yourself. That is referencing the 2 bombs surgically implanted in her. After removing one in her abdomen she still dies from another that was missed when exploring the incision.

That spirit fight doesn't make sense unless you know the game. Implying that if you don't know it they want you to google to make the connection? Logically what did anyone think. Illogically you would know the reference to MGSV. Illlogically you would know DK is a secret final boss in Last Stand mode in Punchout Wii. Illogically you would know Dee Jay is a kickboxer In SF II, Alpha 3 or 4, or know that those are kickboxing pants.
 

moeman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
864
oh i know they're racist and xenophobic. but the fact that they're so damn sheltered makes it at least a little less offensive to me than if a western company did this. its not excusable to me. thus the ":/"
Unfortunately, that excuse no longer works in a global society. If you reap the benefits of a worldwide audience yet cannot be bothered to curate your content as such, you deserve every bit of the criticism you receive. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
 

Adventureracing

The Fallen
Nov 7, 2017
8,035
Even if there are alternative explanations I'm not sure that justifies this. It's simply not a good look and they had other options they could go with. I'm particular when the biggest audience for your game is ok North America you can't really plead ignorance.
 

Hero_Select

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,008
User Banned (1 Week): Dismissing concerns surrounding offensive stereotypes as “outrage culture”.
This has really been blown out of proportion by some. I don't think it was intentional - most of the spirit battles are "What character best represents this Spirit?" Heavy Punches? DK. Lots of kicks? Zero Suit Samus. "Thief"? Animal Crossing character because they can pocket things. It's as simple as that.

Change the spirits up so that people find it less offensive. But to call the game "trash" and add Sakurai to a "list" is just really silly.

Outrage Culture. Everyone is so god damn sensitive. Point it out - They'll fix it. But calm your tits people.
 

Deleted member 3010

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,974
Yeesh.

The thief, I can kinda understand what they were going for because I can relate the bug net mechanic/color to the theme/color of the spirit. Still a bad choice.

But Dee Jay and Sandman as monkeys is wow what the fuck were they thinking kind of obvious. I'm surprised it got a pass in the final release.

Sandman could have been Mac and Dee Jay IDK but not Diddy for obvious reasons lol.

Truly a stain of what was almost a perfect game to me. Leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.
 

Hero_Select

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,008
I've always considered Mario himself a pretty untasteful italian stereotype. With his 'mamma mia', his short height, his moustaches, his bad english
Are you Italian? Because I've not seen anyone really complain about Mario. Unless he's wearing a Sombrero - then he's apparently racist against Mexicans.
 

gattotimo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,056
Are you Italian? Because I've not seen anyone really complain about Mario. Unless he's wearing a Sombrero - then he's apparently racist against Mexicans.
I am. I am honestly not offended by it, cause... well I don't care :). But he's a stereotype all right, I don't see the point in denying it. He just misses pizza and mandolin and then you have 'italian stereotype 101'
 

Pelagic II

Banned
Jan 8, 2018
215
Japan gotta Japan...
This stuff had been going on for a while. Sometimes there is even blackface and stuff in Japanese entertainment.

It's what happens when the only black man, the average Japanese man has ever seen, is through television and movies.
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,786
It's amazing that this thread which is about racism in a product turned into racism into asians in some contents. lol How ironic.

It's certainly fascinating. It's also interesting to compare this thread with the one on EtcetEra about LeBron James typing out and posting anti Semitic lyrics and then apologizing for not realizing that's what he was doing. The discourse certainly feels different.
 

MrPanic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
945
But you'd expect anyone to take a step back and not just go does this work, but is it ok, could this not be ok.
Sure. I'm not saying it shouldn't be changed either, but some of the comments in this thread definitely make it sound like someone might have done this to be purposefully racist. If you look at the mode as a whole and how most of these 1000+ spirits have been put together, the references these spirits were going for make just as much sense as all the other spirits. Now that it has been noticed and pointed out, of course do something about it, but to imply they did it on purpose seems very far-fetched to me. To me at least it seems like a honest mistake that could easily be made if you're not surrounded by that type racism, I personally haven't run in into that type of racism in the last ten years so this thread is honestly a reminder that the monkey thing is a form of racism, these spirits definitely seemed clever when I ran into them, it wasn't until I saw this thread I realized the unfortunate implications.

But yeah, point it out to Nintendo and let them fix it. No one involved actually wants racism in Smash so just work towards a solution instead of making seemingly baseless accusations.
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
I honestly dont think the black people are apes thing was the meaning of the spirits or black people steal. It seems to me like it's just references. For example, Tac has Villager's pocket ability and diddy kong has similar moves to deejay. As for the mr sandman one donkey kong is in punch out as a secret foe. Until Nintendo actually confirms they were mistaken and these images are in fact deemed racist then I dont think I'm going to cause an uproar over it. Like I said... it's game references to me more than anything.
Acknowledging that something is racist doesn't mean you're outraged or causing an uproar, stop trying to make the people who have a problem with this seem irrational.
 

Danstanster

Member
Oct 25, 2017
469
It's certainly fascinating. It's also interesting to compare this thread with the one on EtcetEra about LeBron James typing out and posting anti Semitic lyrics and then apologizing for not realizing that's what he was doing. The discourse certainly feels different.
Lol yeah. Wait until someone explains it to you why it's different now lol
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
Sure. I'm not saying it shouldn't be changed either, but some of the comments in this thread definitely make it sound like someone might have done this to be purposefully racist. If you look at the mode as a whole and how most of these 1000+ spirits have been put together, the references these spirits were going for make just as much sense as all the other spirits. Now that it has been noticed and pointed out, of course do something about it, but to imply they did it on purpose seems very far-fetched to me. To me at least it seems like a honest mistake that could easily be made if you're not surrounded by that type racism, I personally haven't run in into that type of racism in the last ten years so this thread is honestly a reminder that the monkey thing is a form of racism, these spirits definitely seemed clever when I ran into them, it wasn't until I saw this thread I realized the unfortunate implications.

But yeah, point it out to Nintendo and let them fix it. No one involved actually wants racism in Smash so just work towards a solution instead of making seemingly baseless accusations.
The accusation isn't baseless, you're just a fan giving them the benefit of the doubt because it's easier for you to do that.

That's not be saying you're right or wrong, but let's not argue that there's no way this was done intentionally.

I don't get how you ACCIDENTALLY do this three times, but if that's what you want to believe, go right ahead.
 

Oniletter

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,245
Because it's an old, out-of-touch Japanese company where there's not even a single, non-optional character of color in the roster to begin with to demonstrate their take on ethnic representation?
Could you be anymore disingenuous and just out there to start a fight? We've been over this exact topic for literal years and reached a more than satisfactory conclusion why things are like they are.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
Could you be anymore disingenuous and just out there to start a fight? We've been over this exact topic for literal years and reached a more than satisfactory conclusion why things are like they are.

What was the satisfactory conclusion?
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,960
Osaka, Osaka
What the fuck?

I haven't touched Spirits once so I never saw this but shit.
So we're monkeys Nintendo? Shit

Haven't read the thread but I expect the same white people that try to downplay everything to show up on time like they always do.
Probably something about Nintendo being in Japan and it being a coincidence.

Who knows with them.
I doubt they even believe any of it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
Imagine being more bothered by the use of the word racism to describe this, than the imagery itself and still acting like you're above this discourse.

Couldn't be me.
 

Oniletter

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,245
What was the satisfactory conclusion?
Nintendo doesn't really develop the kind of single player story driven games people who post " more black characters in Smash!" are looking for. Nintendo just isn't Sony.

A lot if their games don't even feature humanoid characters. As for humanoid characters, they are almost always either:

1. Characters established literal decades ago ( Mario, Zelda, Samus)
2. Ensemble casts ( ARMS)
3. Games with character creators ( Animal Crossing, Fire Emblem, Splatoon).

You can play as various poc in 2 and 3. Ninteno isn't really creating new, defined "white" characters either.
 
Oct 25, 2017
632
It is almost impossible to offend me and even I said "oh oh" out loud when I came across one of these battles in the game. I'm hoping it wasn't done intentionally and just a clumsy move. It should definitely get patched out though either way. No need to have this in the game. Even if it was an honest mistake, it's not worth the negative feelings it can give people.
 

Danstanster

Member
Oct 25, 2017
469
Sure. I'm not saying it shouldn't be changed either, but some of the comments in this thread definitely make it sound like someone might have done this to be purposefully racist. If you look at the mode as a whole and how most of these 1000+ spirits have been put together, the references these spirits were going for make just as much sense as all the other spirits. Now that it has been noticed and pointed out, of course do something about it, but to imply they did it on purpose seems very far-fetched to me. To me at least it seems like a honest mistake that could easily be made if you're not surrounded by that type racism, I personally haven't run in into that type of racism in the last ten years so this thread is honestly a reminder that the monkey thing is a form of racism, these spirits definitely seemed clever when I ran into them, it wasn't until I saw this thread I realized the unfortunate implications.

But yeah, point it out to Nintendo and let them fix it. No one involved actually wants racism in Smash so just work towards a solution instead of making seemingly baseless accusations.
Yeah agreed, my entire opinion is strewn across this too thinly for you to know I agree. I wish this thread was more about "yikes that is an unfortunate implication what do y'all think they will do about it".

Wait that question will be answered with Nothing because or not enough because, strike that

Lot more of this thread is "it's maliciously racist" "i don't understand how this is more about race than a reference". Can I retitle this thread: DK as shorthand for DeeJay: Ignorance, Innocence, and Responibility
 
Last edited:

Jave

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,825
Chile
Wow. While I get the references they were going for and I don't think there was a malicious intent, this is definitely problematic. Hope they patch it ASAP (just change DK and Diddy to different fighters and Villager to a different alt).
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
Nintendo doesn't really develop the kind of single player story driven games people who post " more black characters in Smash!" are looking for. Nintendo just isn't Sony.

A lot if their games don't even feature humanoid characters. As for humanoid characters, they are either:

1. Characters established literal decades ago ( Mario, Zelda, Samus)
2. Ensemble casts ( ARMS)
3. Games with character creators ( Animal Crossing, Fire Emblem, Splatoon).

You can play as various poc in 2 and 3. Ninteno isn't really creating new, defined "white" characters either.

I don't really buy that though, since new characters are introduced all the time in established franchises (eg Zelda) and also new ones, like Xenoblade. Hell Xenoblade 1/2 have a huge cast of characters, and yet there is still minimal if not complete under-representation. And worse still, Xenoblade does feature predominantly humanoid characters.
 

RagnarokX

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,783
The accusation isn't baseless, you're just a fan giving them the benefit of the doubt because it's easier for you to do that.

That's not be saying you're right or wrong, but let's not argue that there's no way this was done intentionally.

I don't get how you ACCIDENTALLY do this three times, but if that's what you want to believe, go right ahead.
Well, there's 1300 spirits and 74 fighters. DK and Purple Villager were the best picks for Sandman and TAC respectively considering DK was a boss in Punch Out Wii and he has a killer punch and purple villager is the only color that fits, but there were other picks they could have made for Diddy. It'd be suspect if they only made black spirits kongs but that's not the case.

xJppX5p.jpg

yJHQdOm.jpg

BIwwvs5.jpg

hum73kZ.jpg


Maybe the localization team didn't think much of it since the spirits are just possessing/controlling puppet fighters, kinda like they're controlling a fighter as a player.
 

Oniletter

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,245
I don't really buy that though, since new characters are introduced all the time in established franchises (eg Zelda) and also new ones, like Xenoblade. Hell Xenoblade 1/2 have a huge cast of characters, and yet there is still minimal if not complete under-representation. And worse still, Xenoblade does feature predominantly humanoid characters.
I get what you are saying, Xenoblade is definitely more of an outlier in Nintendo's output. But that leaves us kinda just with Elma.
I don't even disagree that it'd be a net positive to have more diversity in representation in Smash as far as humanoid characters are concerned, but the very simplistic American "no poc = racist company" equation grinds my gears.
 

Danstanster

Member
Oct 25, 2017
469
What the fuck?

I haven't touched Spirits once so I never saw this but shit.
So we're monkeys Nintendo? Shit

Haven't read the thread but I expect the same white people that try to downplay everything to show up on time like they always do.
Probably something about Nintendo being in Japan and it being a coincidence.

Who knows with them.
I doubt they even believe any of it.

People trying to say since donkey Kong was a secret boss in punchout for the Wii DK it explains why they used the character and Japanese Developers didn't know about racist ideology
 

lt519

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,064
They should fix it, really tone deaf. Hopefully it wasn't someone acting with intention.
 

Danstanster

Member
Oct 25, 2017
469
Well, there's 1300 spirits and 74 fighters. DK and Purple Villager were the best picks for Sandman and TAC respectively considering DK was a boss in Punch Out Wii and he has a killer punch and purple villager is the only color that fits, but there were other picks they could have made for Diddy. It'd be suspect if they only made black spirits kongs but that's not the case.

xJppX5p.jpg

yJHQdOm.jpg

BIwwvs5.jpg

hum73kZ.jpg


Maybe the localization team didn't think much of it since the spirits are just possessing/controlling puppet fighters, kinda like they're controlling a fighter as a player.
Those are 4 humanoids represented by humanoids. Dk and diddy are simian and that has more implications in representing humans especially if there is large racial and historical place to refer to people less than you as apes
 

RagnarokX

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,783
Those are 4 humanoids represented by humanoids. Dk and diddy are simian and that has more implications in representing humans especially if there is large racial and historical place to refer to people less than you as apes
All of those spirits are black characters like Sandman and Dee Jay but they are not on Kongs. They chose fighters for the spirits based on their moves, not to make a malicious racist message.