Racist Stereotypes in Smash Bros. Ultimates Spirits Mode

Ashlette · Dec 24, 2018

Instead of DK, they could have used a giant Little Mac that spams forward smashes.
Instead of Diddy, they could have used a generic human wireframe that spams Diddy's side special.
Instead of Black Villager, they could have used the default one.

The second one requires more work than the others. But if they are not willing to put in the effort to avoid racism, then they could have excluded the Dee Jay - Diddy spirit fight altogether.

ClickyCal' · Dec 24, 2018

Ashlette said:
Instead of DK, they could have used a giant Little Mac that spams forward smashes.
Instead of Diddy, they could have used a generic human wireframe that spams Diddy's side special.
Instead of Black Villager, they could have used the default one.

The second one requires more work than the others. But if they are not willing to put in the effort to avoid racism, then they could have excluded the Dee Jay - Diddy spirit fight altogether.

Well the black villager wasn't black when they made the spirit battle. The colors match tac.

Alcibiades · Dec 24, 2018

Ashlette said:
Instead of DK, they could have used a giant Little Mac that spams forward smashes.
Instead of Diddy, they could have used a generic human wireframe that spams Diddy's side special.
Instead of Black Villager, they could have used the default one.

The second one requires more work than the others. But if they are not willing to put in the effort to avoid racism, then they could have excluded the Dee Jay - Diddy spirit fight altogether.

A white thief is allowed, but a black one isn't? So in any fictional media, black people should never be portrayed as thieves, only white people should? Do you know how racist that thought process actually is?

They actually made a South Park episode describing this entire thread / incident:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chef_Goes_Nanners

TheGreatMightyPoo · Dec 24, 2018

Quacktion said:
I dont think this was intentionally malicious since there is actual reasoning in these decisions, but they really should have thought harder about how connecting certain fighters to certain spirits could be interpreted beyond the one connecting tissue they have chosen.

Yeah, this.

You'd have to be ignorant to think they made these choices out of something as heavy as racist motives.

They're a hugely successful family friendly company that wouldn't be this blatant and stupid, they're a business and this would hurt it badly.

It's unfortunate that it has offended people and they can rectify it but to think they did this on purpose with ill will doesn't make any sense.

Deleted member 925 · Dec 24, 2018

TheGreatMightyPoo said:
Yeah, this.

You'd have to be ignorant to think they made these choices out of something as heavy as racist motives.

They're a hugely successful family friendly company that wouldn't be this blatant and stupid, they're a business and this would hurt it badly.

It's unfortunate that it has offended people and they can rectify it but to think they did this on purpose with ill will doesn't make any sense.

Totally agree with what you said.

As a man of color, I'm not offended, it's just an unfortunate situation and not meant maliciously.

Ashlette · Dec 24, 2018

yuoke said:
Well the black villager wasn't black when they made the spirit battle. The colors match tac.

It's not a zero sum game. The devs had the power to make a default villager with matching clothes. But they didn't.

And whether or not it's intentional, it's still racist.

Alcibiades said:
A white thief is allowed, but a black one isn't? So in any fictional media, black people should never be portrayed as thieves, only white people should? Do you know how racist that thought process actually is?

They actually made a South Park episode describing this entire thread / incident:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chef_Goes_Nanners

You are right. I forgot that white people are an oppressed minority in the United States. You got it!

Deleted member 3093 · Dec 24, 2018

I could almost see an okay argument that the DK/Mr. Sandman one was meant to be in reference to the fact that DK was a Punch-Out!! character, but given that Diddy Kong was not a Street Fighter character, that doesn't fly.

faceless · Dec 24, 2018

Sakurai is my milkshake duck

Alpheus · Dec 24, 2018

I hope these are changed in a patch. DK to Lil Mac Diddy to Ken and just pick another Villager alt for the Ninja looking spirit.

Angst · Dec 24, 2018

The only thing I'll say is I've seen numerous POC comment in the thread saying it's fine and nothing to make a stink over.

Personally I don't feel it is my job to be offended in their place as I feel a lot of other posters are doing in this thread.

Dongs Macabre · Dec 24, 2018

Angst said:
The only thing I'll say is I've seen numerous POC comment in the thread saying it's fine and nothing to make a stink over.

Personally I don't feel it is my job to be offended in their place as I feel a lot of other posters are doing in this thread.

Weird that you're ignoring the ones that aren't fine with it.

Deleted member 925 · Dec 24, 2018

Angst said:
The only thing I'll say is I've seen numerous POC comment in the thread saying it's fine and nothing to make a stink over.

Personally I don't feel it is my job to be offended in their place as I feel a lot of other posters are doing in this thread.

This is how I feel. I don't need a white or straight person up in arms over something that I don't think is malicious in intent. Let me fight my own battles and choose them wisely.

Deleted member 10629 · Dec 24, 2018

Angst said:
The only thing I'll say is I've seen numerous POC comment in the thread saying it's fine and nothing to make a stink over.

Personally I don't feel it is my job to be offended in their place as I feel a lot of other posters are doing in this thread.

I'm Mexican. I was not personally offended by Trump racist comments, but that doesnt mean it isnt an issue.

FluxWaveZ · Dec 24, 2018

Angst said:
The only thing I'll say is I've seen numerous POC comment in the thread saying it's fine and nothing to make a stink over.

Personally I don't feel it is my job to be offended in their place as I feel a lot of other posters are doing in this thread.

Yeah, because every PoC who commented in this thread is fine with it.

Deleted member 925 · Dec 24, 2018

NarohDethan said:
I'm Mexican. I was not personally offended by Trump racist comments, but that doesnt mean it isnt an issue.

That's a totally different issue, because Trunps remarks have real world consequences.

Don't even try to equate the two.

FluxWaveZ · Dec 24, 2018

Kitchenmotors said:
That's a totally different issue, because Trunps remarks have real world consequences.

Don't even try to equate the two.

And the joke of black people being equated to apes doesn't.

Crossing Eden · Dec 24, 2018

Angst said:
The only thing I'll say is I've seen numerous POC comment in the thread saying it's fine

"I have a black friend"

Deleted member 925 · Dec 24, 2018

FluxWaveZ said:
And the joke of black people being equated to apes doesn't.

Alright but it's not a joke? This is clearly an unfortunate pairing that I don't believe had malicious intent.

Deleted member 10629 · Dec 24, 2018

Kitchenmotors said:
That's a totally different issue, because Trunps remarks have real world consequences.

Don't even try to equate the two.

But wouldnt you agree that perpetuating harmful stereotypes reinforce racism?

Deleted member 33533 · Dec 24, 2018

I haven't read far into the thread but I fully expect it's full of people trying to rationalize it as not racist. It always seems like people will agree racism exists but then doubt it when an example comes up.

Even if these weren't done out of malice, the developers and especially the localization team should have caught this.

FluxWaveZ · Dec 24, 2018

Kitchenmotors said:
Alright but it's not a joke? This is clearly an unfortunate pairing that I don't believe had malicious intent.

The end result is the same, whether it was intentional or not.

WetWaffle · Dec 24, 2018

Yeah, this is pretty indefensible. I assume like in past threads white people have already said black people shouldn't be offended, or that because some black people aren't offended, others shouldn't be.

Terraforce · Dec 24, 2018

Alcibiades said:
A white thief is allowed, but a black one isn't? So in any fictional media, black people should never be portrayed as thieves, only white people should? Do you know how racist that thought process actually is?

They actually made a South Park episode describing this entire thread / incident:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chef_Goes_Nanners

It's much more suspect when they choose the one of the four black alts in a game of almost 600 options.

AGoodODST · Dec 24, 2018

Yeah couldn't believe it when I came across this.

I get you can argue why they made the choice, for example DK being in Punch Out!, but that's a real shitty excuse when they could have done anything else. At some point someone should have gone "Yeah you know what, representing black people with literal monkeys isn't a good idea".

Hopefully Nintendo apologises and makes changes like they did with the Game and Watch issue because it's really not acceptable.

Tavernade · Dec 24, 2018

Alcibiades said:
A white thief is allowed, but a black one isn't? So in any fictional media, black people should never be portrayed as thieves, only white people should? Do you know how racist that thought process actually is?

They actually made a South Park episode describing this entire thread / incident:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chef_Goes_Nanners

The issue is that they picked the only male villager skin that was black. If they picked a black character in a game with better PoC representation it wouldn't be as much as an issue. I don't think it was intentional, but if it was they would have had to go out of their way to have that skin on that character represent that spirit. That's why this is problematic.

And for the record, yes, I do know how racist that argument is, and the answer is 0% racist. It's also not an argument anyone is making. It's perfectly fine to have criminals of any background, making ALL of them the same background is the issue. No one is arguing all thieves in all media need to be white.

ClickyCal' · Dec 24, 2018

Terraforce said:
It's much more suspect when they choose the one of the four black alts in a game of almost 600 options.

They didn't choose that alt though, because it wasn't black when they made the spirit battle.

WrenchNinja · Dec 24, 2018

Kitchenmotors said:
Alright but it's not a joke? This is clearly an unfortunate pairing that I don't believe had malicious intent.

It doesn't matter what the intent was.

Deleted member 33533 · Dec 24, 2018

Angst said:
The only thing I'll say is I've seen numerous POC comment in the thread saying it's fine and nothing to make a stink over.

Personally I don't feel it is my job to be offended in their place as I feel a lot of other posters are doing in this thread.

Sigh...

I find it interesting that you only listen to the POC saying it's not an issue and value their opinion over the ones who say it is. Your comment isn't an original one, everytime a race issue comes up someone puts a magnifying glass on the POC who doesn't think it's a problem to dismiss the whole thing.

You don't have to be offended for anyone but don't pull this kind of BS to downplay the issue. If it's not your job, then just don't say anything.

ClickyCal' · Dec 24, 2018

Tavernade said:
The issue is that they picked the only male villager skin that was black. If they picked a black character in a game with better PoC representation it wouldn't be as much as an issue. I don't think it was intentional, but if it was they would have had to go out of their way to have that skin on that character represent that spirit. That's why this is problematic.

And for the record, yes, I do know how racist that argument is, and the answer is 0% racist. It's also not an argument anyone is making. It's perfectly fine to have criminals of any background, making ALL of them the same background is the issue. No one is arguing all thieves in all media need to be white.

The alt was originally light skinned, even at e3. They changed two alts at the last second to dark skinned, so it was used for the spirit battle. When they picked the alt, they did it because the clothes colors matched.

DoubleTake · Dec 24, 2018

Is there a reason people in this thread were getting banned for the quite apparent double standard applied to bans when shit like this happens compared to LGBT topics? Or is there something I missed?

Soapbox Killer · Dec 24, 2018

FluxWaveZ said:
The end result is the same, whether it was intentional or not.

Is it the same? What is the end result?

Deleted member 6539 · Dec 24, 2018

Alcibiades said:
A white thief is allowed, but a black one isn't? So in any fictional media, black people should never be portrayed as thieves, only white people should? Do you know how racist that thought process actually is?

They actually made a South Park episode describing this entire thread / incident:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chef_Goes_Nanners

Nobody is saying that. You can have a black thief; the problem is, that that is often the only black representation you will see. A negative portrayal. In the case of a white thief, you have a bunch of nuanced white representation to balance that. Your comparison also ignores how those portrayals have negative consequence on us in real life too. Fuck South Park, btw.

Deleted member 33533 · Dec 24, 2018

WrenchNinja said:
It doesn't matter what the intent was.

Thank you. People seem to not get this. Whether it was intentional or not, it should not have been in the game. It should definitely had been caught before release.

Nintendo's Treehouse should have definitely caught this. Judging by their streams they have PoC who work on the games. Not that you have to be PoC to notice something so glaring.

WetWaffle · Dec 24, 2018

Soapbox Killer Returns said:
Is it the same? What is the end result?

The end result is a racist depiction. As simple as that.

WrenchNinja · Dec 24, 2018

Soapbox Killer Returns said:
Is it the same? What is the end result?

The end result is still racist.

Terraforce · Dec 24, 2018

yuoke said:
They didn't choose that alt though, because it wasn't black when they made the spirit battle.

We don't know when the character was chose for the spirit. And honestly you could make a pretty good argument for half of the villagers representing Tac, not just the black one.

TheGreatMightyPoo · Dec 24, 2018

WrenchNinja said:
It doesn't matter what the intent was.

Intent always matters.

Tavernade · Dec 24, 2018

yuoke said:
The alt was originally light skinned, even at e3. They changed two alts at the last second to dark skinned, so it was used for the spirit battle. When they picked the alt, they did it because the clothes colors matched.

I know. The person I was quoting did not seem to understand why having a black thief was a bad thing. I'm in the camp of this being accidental, but some people aren't seeing the issues at the heart of the debate, whether it's accidental or not.

DoubleTake · Dec 24, 2018

Soapbox Killer Returns said:
Is it the same? What is the end result?

Perpetuation of negative stereotypes.

WrenchNinja · Dec 24, 2018

TheGreatMightyPoo said:
Intent always matters.

Is knowing the intent going to suddenly stop a gorilla representing a black boxer not be racist?

BurntFoot · Dec 24, 2018

Doesn't matter where you go, us black folks are hated. We have no allies.

ClickyCal' · Dec 24, 2018

Terraforce said:
We don't know when the character was chose for the spirit. And honestly you could make a pretty good argument for half of the villagers representing Tac, not just the black one.

They definitely made that spirit battle before they changed the skin tone, the dark skin alts were just made a few months ago. Tac has a black robe and purple ears. He steals stuff. So they picked the villager with black pants and purple shirt. It's just accidental that they then later made that villager alt dark skin.

FluxWaveZ · Dec 24, 2018

Soapbox Killer Returns said:
Is it the same? What is the end result?

The few black characters represented in the game being equated to apes and thieves.

TheGreatMightyPoo said:
Intent always matters.

For different reasons. Something can be a result of ignorance or malicious intent, but the repercussions are still the same.

Deleted member 6539 · Dec 24, 2018

WrenchNinja said:
Is knowing the intent going to suddenly stop a gorilla representing a black boxer not be racist?

Right, sometimes the impact matters more than the intent.

DoubleTake · Dec 24, 2018

BurntFoot said:
Doesn't matter where you go, us black folks are hated. We have no allies.

Its a hell of a thing. No wonder they call us a "resilient" race. Bleh

TheGreatMightyPoo · Dec 24, 2018

FluxWaveZ said:
For different reasons. Something can be a result of ignorance or malicious intent, but the repercussions are still the same.

Sure but the latter speaks much worse of the source than the former.

Dongs Macabre · Dec 24, 2018

TheGreatMightyPoo said:
Intent always matters.

Ignorance is never an excuse.

Onyar · Dec 24, 2018

It's hard to believe it was a mistake since before the release they already had an the same issue with the fire attack.

Crashman · Dec 24, 2018

DK being Mr. Sandman actually does make enough sense, since they're both end bosses for Punch Out Wii, and there's already a good chunk of Punch Out spirits (including Doc Louis) represented by Mac already.

The other two, I've got nothing, especially Deejay, though really no one in the roster fits him.

WrenchNinja · Dec 24, 2018

Crashman said:
DK being Mr. Sandman actually does make enough sense, since they're both end bosses for Punch Out Wii, and there's already a good chunk of Punch Out spirits (including Doc Louis) represented by Mac already.

I don't understand this excuse. What is one more Punch Out spirit represented by Little Mac going to do? How is that a worse scenario than this?

Racist Stereotypes in Smash Bros. Ultimates Spirits Mode

User requested account closure

User requested account closure

Persona Central

User requested account closure

Persona Central

User requested account closure

Persona Central

One Winged Slayer

Tavernade

One Winged Slayer

Tavernade

Persona Central