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'3y Kingdom

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,494
DK was likely chosen to reference Punch Out Wii, Diddy because of his Side-B's resemblance to Dee Jay's moves. The problem is that expecting your audience to pick up on these obscure references is naive and tone-deaf at best.

And I don't see any adequate explanation for that Villager.
 

Deleted member 8791

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,383
I only find weird the diddy kong pick, the others make sense and only look racist if you really want to find something racist in it.
I find this sentiment interesting since I personally find the Diddy Kong one the least upsetting, since the actual spirit battle tells you the reason Diddy is picked: the side special. This is a common theme in spirits; there is one single thing the character and spirit have together and is the reason for being picked.

Meanwhile, the Donkey Kong and Villager battles have no such thing and are thus really problematic since we can only speculate why they were picked.
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,685
They went with black villager because the clothes colors match. Villager originally didn't have the two dark skin alts.
 

Order

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,465
Tac is a thief, and Villager's gimmick is pocketing items.

Mr. Sandman and DK are both super heavyweight punchers. DK is literally a Punch-Out!! boss, too.

Dee Jay and Diddy Kong are both fun-loving musicians with acrobatic kicks. This particular Spirit Battle focuses on Diddy's kicks.
So why pick the black villager
 

Instro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,009
I only find weird the diddy kong pick. (and the Native american thing that was already discussed). You have to want to see something racist in the others in order to see them racist.

Black people being stereotyped as monkeys and thieves are like the most low level obvious stereotypes of all time. You don't have to look very hard to see that these are fucked up. The villager is possibly the worst of all considering it was apparently changed after the beta to make the character black.
 

ActWan

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,334
WTF.

You could use Ken doing kick attacks for Dee Jay.
You could use King K. Rool doing forward smashes for Mr. Sandman.
Anything other than representing black characters with fucking Diddy Kong and Donkey Kong WHAT THE FUCK

Also literally any other Villager costume would have been a better choice for a thief character than that one.
Yep.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,380
I mean Donkey Kong is inherently based on old racist stereotypes of King Kong. You can look up the racist undertones of King Kong if you care. But DK64 really took it to the next level with having them rap and collect watermelons. Throughout the years they've kind of moved away from that stuff but the root of the character is based on that. So using DK for anything remotely racial is big yikes.
 

Fosko

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,955
Yes because there's no history of calling black people monkeys or thinking they're going to steal something. Come on dude.
The DK pick is quite obvious to represent a heavyweight boxing character (although they could have used a Giant Little Mac as well, but they also use him for other Punch Out spirits), and the villager has dark skin because it's the one that matches the spirit color scheme the most, it has nothing to do with african americans.
 

Syril

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,895
Can someone help me understand what I'm looking as I have not played this mode.
You fight the "spirits" of characters who aren't playable fighters represented by fighting other characters on predetermined stages and special conditions to represent the spirit.
What's the issue with the fire attack?
Ah, Indians?
The original Fire Attack game had you fighting off native Americans trying to burn down your fort. Yeah.
 
Oct 26, 2017
9,827
The Mr. Sandman and DK one I can understand, with DK being the final opponent in Punch Out! for the Wii and both of them being heavy hitters. The rest though...Jesue Christ, that's God awful

A lot of people here on gaming forums like this one think that Donkey Kong is good representation of a black person, so it fits.
???

Erm...how?
 

Atisha

Banned
Nov 28, 2017
1,331
User Warned: Trolling
Good enough reason for me to take the game off my list.

In my journal i have duly noted "No Smash. Director is a Bigot."

Not finacially supporting that.
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,318
Canada
Also from one of Sakurai's previous games in case people want to say its just a coincedence and people are just looking for controversy.
maxresdefault.jpg

I'm not necessarily saying these were intentional, but its not exactly impossible.

They fortunately "fixed it" in the remake to be more... statue-esque than an organic caricature. YMMV though.

hqdefault.jpg


This Smash this is pretty shitty though.
 

Fosko

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,955
Black people being sterotyped as monkeys and thieves is like the most low level obvious stereotype of all. You don't have to look very hard to see that these are fucked up. The villager is possibly the worst of all considering it was apparently changed after the beta to make the character black.
I think there's a difference between established bad stereotypes and saying that something is using that stereotype. For example, the case of The Jungle book and the Monkey Louie, and him being voiced by a black man is seen as racist. I think the stereotype is racist, but that not everything should be compared to that stereotype and be judged as one.

And in this case, the villager has darker skin to match the spirit cloth, which is black. They do that for other spirits as well.
 

Suzushiiro

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
515
Brooklyn, NY
All of these are well within the realm of shit where it would be a little much to expect the average Japanese person to know they were considered offensive racial stereotypes in the west.

That said, it be one thing if this was a decade or two ago or if this was a smaller company like IF, NIS, or Falcom, but in this day and age a company like Nintendo should have a process in place where localizers for the other regions the game is releasing in can flag shit like this.
 

Twenty7kvn

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,749
The DK pick is quite obvious to represent a heavyweight boxing character (although they could have used a Giant Little Mac as well, but they also use him for other Punch Out spirits), and the villager has dark skin because it's the one that matches the spirit color scheme the most, it has nothing to do with african americans.
That shit doesn't matter, Nintendo is a global company and they should've known better. If they don't want to take the time out to find out if the shit they put in games is racist or not them fuck them they don't need anyone's support.
 

Buzzard

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
128
Argentina
The villager one is definitely unsensitive and should be changed ASAP.

The others have perfectly valid reasons for what they are (Diddy Kong as Dee Jay because of kapoiera which uses lots of kicks like Diddy and DK as Sandman because their relation as endgame bosses for Punch Out, plus the giant punch move from DK) and I don't see an evil intent nor negligence.
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,685
I mean Donkey Kong is inherently based on old racist stereotypes of King Kong. You can look up the racist undertones of King Kong if you care. But DK64 really took it to the next level with having them rap and collect watermelons. Throughout the years they've kind of moved away from that stuff but the root of the character is based on that. So using DK for anything remotely racial is big yikes.
Well, with watermelons, they got a bunch of different fruits to use in the game, so I seriously doubt that had intentions. The kongs themselves aren't the actual ones rapping, and grant just wanted to make a tone setting opening to show it was different from dkc.
 

catboy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,322
remember that time ign gave donkey Kong a rastacap and tried to claim it wasn't racist
 

louisacommie

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,571
New Jersey
yeah this is a real problem with multiple factors

A. just being the spirit and character combos itself and

b. The lack of exclusively black characters playable in smash

Nintendo did start improving on having black characters in games around the time smash ultimate was in development

Hell elmas game came out the same year as the project plan of smash ultimate.

Shame we are going to have to wait for smash 6 for actual first party black nintendo characters to get a chance


I need urbosa in.
 

Alienous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,604
"The enemy has increased move speed."

I'm pretty sure the enemies the spirit and battle is based on are fast enemies in the Kirby series. And obviously Villager was chosen because of his net and ability to 'steal' items. Then you pick the alt colour scheme with the darkest clothing, and it all melds into something unfortunate.

I think the result is explainable without malicious intent. Still this is something that should have shown up on someone's radar through development / translation.
 

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
Because it's an old, out-of-touch Japanese company where there's not even a single, non-optional character of color in the roster to begin with to demonstrate their take on ethnic representation?

That makes no sense and is just absurd to say. At worst they have no good representation on the roster but racist because of that? No, they aren't.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,789
Sandman made me pause the game and Google it to see if I was missing something.

Donkey Kong was a final boss in Punch Out Wii, but it's still a big "What?" for me. You can't establish that you use characters for their visual similarities to other characters (like Zero-Suit Samus in a white colour scheme being The Boss) and slide by with something like the Sandman spirit battle.

That's because not all of them are based on physical resemblance. Many of them are based on characteristics, some deep cutting more than others.
 

djshauny1

Member
Oct 27, 2017
887
User banned: (1 month) Inflammatory drive-by and history of infractions
Oh no. Lets get offended over fucking nothing thread.

Trying to make something over nothing as per usual.

Good job reset....sigh.
 

Dalcop

Member
Nov 28, 2017
347
I only find weird the diddy kong pick. (and the Native american thing that was already discussed). You have to want to see something racist in the others in order to see them racist.
That's how I feel. As a black person, the self explanatory evidence of racism wasn't exactly self explanatory. Thought it was because of references to stamina, jumping and power. Didn't even make the monkey connection until a fourth or fifth take really searching for something. I mean, just look at my avatar. Diddy only gave me pause because I forgot how acrobatic he was. I can see people taking something from this, but I certainly don't think it's patch worthy.
 

Fosko

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,955
I find this sentiment interesting since I personally find the Diddy Kong one the least upsetting, since the actual spirit battle tells you the reason Diddy is picked: the side special. This is a common theme in spirits; there is one single thing the character and spirit have together and is the reason for being picked.

Meanwhile, the Donkey Kong and Villager battles have no such thing and are thus really problematic since we can only speculate why they were picked.
DK is a heavy character that throws big punches, and the villager "steals" items with neutral B, and maybe his grab is a bit similar to the bag the spirit has or something.