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Jun 7, 2020
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I'm confused. Earlier in that Twitter thread he said that PS4 doesn't permit outputting games at more than 60 Hz. PSVR has a 120 Hz display. Did I imagine all the 120 Hz and 90 Hz games I played on PSVR?

Aside from that I really don't get the point he's making about BC/live service games.

He doesn't understand game development or game architecture.

To my knowledge PS5 will use an evolution of the GNM API for graphics, just as Series X will use an evolution of the DirectX API for graphics. Neither PS4 nor Xbox One launched with a GNM or DirectX version that PS5 and Series X will launch with, but neither will be entire rewrites, either.

Secondly, he seems to think the frame rate output of a game must be tied to graphics API rather than the engine that uses that graphics API.

Thirdly, he doesn't realise that PS4 has been capable of outputting 120Hz since PS VR. PS VR has three modes, with three outputs from the PS4 itself. 60Hz, 90Hz and 120Hz. Very few games used 120Hz (Polybius is one) due to the lack of power in the console to do any fancy graphics at that frame rate.

Fourthly, he doesn't really understand how games are often designed. Games with fixed frame rates often have game logic tightly coupled with the rendering loop. Sony want to vet games for this before essentially whitelisting them to run in the unlocked modes, with the compatibility modes as a fall back. A fall back Cerny was already bullish back in March that they might not even need.
This thorough approach to backwards compatibility is being interpreted as Sony games having a fundamentally different approach to how Xbox games are made and it's just not true.

In fact we've already seen a Series X video where some older titles specifically wouldn't launch.

Maybe the difference between the two companies is that Microsoft has an in-house team that patches and updates games, whereas Sony feeds back their findings to the developers?

The idea that Xbox games just work on Series X unlocked because of DirectX, and that PS4 games need to be "ported" to PS5 because the APIs are so different is nonsense until we get confirmation Sony has ditched GNM.
 

RivalGT

Member
Dec 13, 2017
6,382
The 8k logo is just advertising the capabilities of the console, and we'll HDMI 2.1. HDMI 2.0 can do 8k but only at 24 and 30 fps. 4k at 120hz is also only possible because of HDMI 2.1. My video card for example is capable of running games at 4k 120 fps but without HDMI 2.1, it's not possible.
 

AndyD

Mambo Number PS5
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Oct 27, 2017
8,602
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I dont know if im anywhere correct but couldnt they put an upper limit for what the frame rate would be wouldn't it be a bit dangerous to have the framerate totally uncapped without an upper bound Even if its high as hell.
Not really from a gameplay perspective.

You could cap it to save resources (not max out cpu or gpu and save power as in electricity) but PC games can run at 200fps and gameplay is not affected. You are not seeing those 200fps but the system is capable of outputting them.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
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Oct 30, 2017
36,072
Not really from a gameplay perspective.

You could cap it to save resources (not max out cpu or gpu and save power add in electricity) but PC games can run at 200fps and gameplay is not affected. You are not seeing those 200fps but the system is capable of outputting them.
I see yeah i was thinking of runaway code, I know one reason for the fans spinning up on PS map screens was due to them being uncapped lol.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
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Oct 30, 2017
36,072
Fuck, don't get me excited. I can't believe I'm thirsty for symbols on the retail box. This is what happens when you want the info under the headlines and Sony has been tight AF with leaks.
Are you more worried about it for media or gaming? I have a strong suspision atmos will be there for it for media a bit less strong on vision for media. But I dont think any of it would be for gaming.
 

RayCharlizard

Member
Nov 2, 2017
2,931
Seem to be a case-by-case basis on both sides. What would prevent games with an unlocked frame rate engine on ps4 from going120 fps without any patch in boost mode?
I think we've finally gotten to the point where we need to change the terminology we use when referring to frame rate caps, because up until this generation, "unlocked" on console has really just meant "60 fps cap instead of 30 fps cap" in almost all situations. "Unlocked" came from the fact that in many games that do this there is a lot of fluctuation in frame rate, but it never goes above 60 fps unlike on PC where unlocked truly means the sky (or the engine's capabilities) is the limit, thus it has similarly large fluctuations. One of the few exceptions I can think of is a particular mode in Rainbow Six Siege that runs above 60 fps internally as shown by the game's own statistics overlay. So even on PS4 and Xbox One games that run "unlocked", there is still an upper limit of 60 Hz output coded in somewhere. Otherwise with all of the additional GPU overhead, you'd see a game like Assassin's Creed Unity 1.0 fluctuate greatly above the 60 fps line, but it doesn't. It locks right there, as if there's another wall in place.

tl;dr we've been using "unlocked" on consoles to say "fluctuates above 30 fps" instead of just saying "capped at 60 fps".
 

Spinluck

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
28,400
Chicago
I didn't say you were going to get it on a vast majority of titles, nor does it say you're going to get the vast majority of them in 4k or 8k. I don't think we'll see a single 8k game and most won't even be 4k@30fps at all bells and whistles. It will likely support 8k blu ray.

The console supports 8k, it has 8k output.

Yes, you are right, 8k video output for those who even have 8k displays lol.

And you did say having 4k @ 120fps as a possibility means that 8k @ 30fps which isn't going to be on the table for any game, really, warrants the label. If running something at PS1 graphics is what gets you 8k that is hardly a sell. The video I get but that's not what the label says.

It's an oversell, I don't have a problem with it, but I do think it's funny. You think it's justified as is, which is fine.
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,026
I'm confused. Earlier in that Twitter thread he said that PS4 doesn't permit outputting games at more than 60 Hz. PSVR has a 120 Hz display. Did I imagine all the 120 Hz and 90 Hz games I played on PSVR?

Aside from that I really don't get the point he's making about BC/live service games.

- he's presumably talking about regular TV games, not PSVR.
- even with that, it doesn't matter. You don't need games that do 120Hz on X1X for them to work at 120Hz on XSX. you just need a game that runs with an unlocked framerate that runs above 60. It won't draw to the TV more than 60 because normal TVs don't do that. But if its unlocked, then the next gen consoles may be able to get them to 120. Or maybe between 60-120 with VRR. Possibly without a specific patch.

XSX and PS5 should hopefully be no different in this respect
 

Crumpo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,131
Bournemouth, UK
Are you more worried about it for media or gaming? I have a strong suspision atmos will be there for it for media a bit less strong on vision for media. But I dont think any of it would be for gaming.
Nope, DV for media, particularly the UHD drive. I don't want pauper HDR on my 4k blu rays! I'm not fussed about gaming as tempest will sort out the audio and I only have 5.1 setup for films anyway.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,072
Nope, DV for media, particularly the UHD drive. I don't want pauper HDR on my 4k blu rays! I'm not fussed about gaming as tempest will sort out the audio and I only have 5.1 setup for films anyway.
Yeah I hope its there, even tho my tv is just hdr right now. It's a good showcase of the 4k movies. I would think sony considered it esp when their TVs support it.
 

AndyD

Mambo Number PS5
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,602
Nashville
I see yeah i was thinking of runaway code, I know one reason for the fans spinning up on PS map screens was due to them being uncapped lol.
That's exactly it but as you may have noticed it doesn't affect your gameplay and being able to move along the map or the menu. it just makes it ultra smooth. And it consumes maximum resources in the meantime. So if you want to save power as an electricity to reduce fan speed and noise that's one thing. But it does not affect the actual gameplay.
 

prophetvx

Member
Nov 28, 2017
5,307
Yes, you are right, 8k video output for those who even have 8k displays lol.

And you did say having 4k @ 120fps as a possibility means that 8k @ 30fps which isn't going to be on the table for any game, really, warrants the label. If running something at PS1 graphics is what gets you 8k that is hardly a sell. The video I get but that's not what the label says.

It's an oversell, I don't have a problem with it, but I do think it's funny. You think it's justified as is, which is fine.
I said if 4K @ 120fps is possible, so is 8k@30fps, which requires the same level of power. What creative decisions developers choose to take on that front is not anything either you or I know.

The packaging makes no claims about what games will run at. You're pissed off at it for being factual in including the 8K logo, something that can only be certified if you support HDMI 2.1 or above, which it does. Perhaps to appease you it should have listed 4K@30fps or below with RT, 4K@60fps or above without RT but games that are overly complex may only run at 1440p.

You could write a damn novel as a disclaimer saying what it will support.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
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Oct 30, 2017
36,072
That's exactly it but as you may have noticed it doesn't affect your gameplay and being able to move along the map or the menu. it just makes it ultra smooth. And it consumes maximum resources in the meantime. So if you want to save power as an electricity to reduce fan speed and noise that's one thing. But it does not affect the actual gameplay.
Ah gotcha so I guess it def is a case by case thing.
 

SonicFighterV

Member
May 13, 2019
350
I dont know if im anywhere correct but couldnt they put an upper limit for what the frame rate would be wouldn't it be a bit dangerous to have the framerate totally uncapped without an upper bound Even if its high as hell.
Game development on consoles is very much tied to the specialized architecture on hand. That's why they have to design the games and even physics with respect to what's possible with the hardware they have. So the frame rates are typically lower than PCs. With PS4 and XboxOne, that has changed a whole lot as they basically were very similar to PCs. Depending on how developers built their games around that is what's the key here. Which is why it's surprising to think PS5 needs a whole different set of API when compared to PS4, and seems a little suspect to me(jeff's tweets that is). But maybe they decided that they needed a clean slate starting with PS5 because of how it interacts with the SSD. I don't know.

Long story short, it's a case by case basis on how developers decided to develop their games and how their engine was optimized to the hardware and how versatile it was. That would allow them to have the said potential for "togglable framerates", depending on the platform. This is easier said than done with the time constraints and devices they have to support.
 

Spinluck

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Oct 26, 2017
28,400
Chicago
I said if 4K @ 120fps is possible, so is 8k@30fps, which requires the same level of power. What creative decisions developers choose to take on that front is not anything either you or I know.

The packaging makes no claims about what games will run at. You're pissed off at it for being factual in including the 8K logo, something that can only be certified if you support HDMI 2.1 or above, which it does.

You must be reading into things a certain type of way to believe I am pissed off. I never said 8k under any circumstances was impossible on PS5.

Defend the marketing all you want but it's a clear oversell, spare me the "developer choice" nonsense. You aren't going to see many games hitting 4k the 120fps mark. Let alone 8k @ 30fps, that is overkill for games right now.

I can definitely laugh at it because I can see people who aren't tech savy asking me if this thing can actually play games at 8k.
 

SonicFighterV

Member
May 13, 2019
350
You must be reading into things a certain type of way to believe I am pissed off. I never said 8k under any circumstances was impossible on PS5.

Defend the marketing all you want but it's a clear oversell, spare me the "developer choice" nonsense. You aren't going to see many games hitting 4k the 120fps mark. Let alone 8k @ 30fps, that is overkill for games right now.

I can definitely laugh at it because I can see people who aren't tech savy asking me if this thing can actually play games at 8k.
I haven't really read the box in detail. Does it say 8K gaming ? I guess they could just mean 8K video streaming by the logo.
 

Spinluck

▲ Legend ▲
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Oct 26, 2017
28,400
Chicago
You said it's straight bullshit.
But both consoles have the capsbility to play 8K video.
And a 2D game could conceivably output at 8K.
"Can I game at 8k on PS5?"

Yes you can!

(here are the 3 2D games that can do it!)

It was a post that clearly wasn't that serious hence the "lmao"

Imagine dragging this out for pages.


I haven't really read the box in detail. Does it say 8K gaming ? I guess they could just mean 8K video streaming by the logo.

I figured it was for video, but unlike ERA (site full of nerds), a good number of people can totally take "8k" as meaning more than just video.

I wasn't saying the PS5 under no circumstance can output 8k.
 

Loud Wrong

Member
Feb 24, 2020
13,822
The Verge did receive one according to Tom

I want a previewer to attach a pair of headphones to the Dualsense and tell me if it sounds like ass like the Dualshock 4's audio stream does. If that addressed this failing, it'll be huge. And no I dont mean 3D audio. I mean the quality of the stream.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,072
Game development on consoles is very much tied to the specialized architecture on hand. That's why they have to design the games and even physics with respect to what's possible with the hardware they have. So the frame rates are typically lower than PCs. With PS4 and XboxOne, that has changed a whole lot as they basically were very similar to PCs. Depending on how developers built their games around that is what's the key here. Which is why it's surprising to think PS5 needs a whole different set of API when compared to PS4, and seems a little suspect to me(jeff's tweets that is). But maybe they decided that they needed a clean slate starting with PS5 because of how it interacts with the SSD. I don't know.

Long story short, it's a case by case basis on how developers decided to develop their games and how their engine was optimized to the hardware and how versatile it was. That would allow them to have the said potential for "togglable framerates", depending on the platform. This is easier said than done with the time constraints and devices they have to support.
Yeah he's totally wrong about the APIs sony brought forward their PS4 APIs(road to ps5 all but confirmed that when cerny said you didnt need to know PS5 well to dev on it) same reason why devs love it the have a base knowing what to expect with further extensions to the API to maximize the new features. And I see yeah I wasnt sure if console wise uncapped really was "you can run up to 60" which is what I was figuring uncapped in the console space would be vs a PC uncapped.
 

Toriko

Member
Dec 29, 2017
7,662
Exclusive : Jim Ryan's response when asked by Sony's Marketing team if they can send Jeff Grub and Austin Evans a PS5 console to review




Lol on a sidenote cannot wait to hear more from Digital Foundry! They will be fairly thorough with their coverage.
 

prophetvx

Member
Nov 28, 2017
5,307
You must be reading into things a certain type of way to believe I am pissed off. I never said 8k under any circumstances was impossible on PS5.

Defend the marketing all you want but it's a clear oversell, spare me the "developer choice" nonsense. You aren't going to see many games hitting 4k the 120fps mark. Let alone 8k @ 30fps, that is overkill for games right now.

I can definitely laugh at it because I can see people who aren't tech savy asking me if this thing can actually play games at 8k.
Are you also upset that many games also won't support Dolby Atmos features? Do you need to explain that to your non tech savvy friends? Are you also annoyed at the lack of 1080p logo present, do you have to explain that it will still work on their TV?

Does your opinion change if you can connect it to an 8K TV and throw in an 8K blu ray or watch 8K streaming when it eventually drops at some point this gen?

The console can output at 8K, it's really not misleading, if your friends are too stupid to understand that resolutions and framerates vary between games, that's on them. Will you flip out over nothing if a game gets published at some point that lands between 4k and 8k as tech like the AMD equivalent of DLSS tech improves? I don't know if that will happen, nor do I really care but the box doesn't say "plays games at 8k".

Did you care about the 4k label on the PS4 pro even though it was achieved through checkerboarding?
 

19thCenturyFox

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,309
- he's presumably talking about regular TV games, not PSVR.
- even with that, it doesn't matter. You don't need games that do 120Hz on X1X for them to work at 120Hz on XSX. you just need a game that runs with an unlocked framerate that runs above 60. It won't draw to the TV more than 60 because normal TVs don't do that. But if its unlocked, then the next gen consoles may be able to get them to 120. Or maybe between 60-120 with VRR. Possibly without a specific patch.

XSX and PS5 should hopefully be no different in this respect

That's my thinking as well. Not to mention that even games with unlocked framerates are capped at 60 fps in most cases. Assassin's Creed Unity (1.0) and GTA 4 for example have "unlocked" framerates but both don't go beyond 60 fps even though they easily could. Someone has to go back and do additional work on those games in order for them to take full advantage of the new hardware.

He doesn't understand game development or game architecture.

To my knowledge PS5 will use an evolution of the GNM API for graphics, just as Series X will use an evolution of the DirectX API for graphics. Neither PS4 nor Xbox One launched with a GNM or DirectX version that PS5 and Series X will launch with, but neither will be entire rewrites, either.

Secondly, he seems to think the frame rate output of a game must be tied to graphics API rather than the engine that uses that graphics API.

Thirdly, he doesn't realise that PS4 has been capable of outputting 120Hz since PS VR. PS VR has three modes, with three outputs from the PS4 itself. 60Hz, 90Hz and 120Hz. Very few games used 120Hz (Polybius is one) due to the lack of power in the console to do any fancy graphics at that frame rate.

Fourthly, he doesn't really understand how games are often designed. Games with fixed frame rates often have game logic tightly coupled with the rendering loop. Sony want to vet games for this before essentially whitelisting them to run in the unlocked modes, with the compatibility modes as a fall back. A fall back Cerny was already bullish back in March that they might not even need.
This thorough approach to backwards compatibility is being interpreted as Sony games having a fundamentally different approach to how Xbox games are made and it's just not true.

In fact we've already seen a Series X video where some older titles specifically wouldn't launch.

Maybe the difference between the two companies is that Microsoft has an in-house team that patches and updates games, whereas Sony feeds back their findings to the developers?

The idea that Xbox games just work on Series X unlocked because of DirectX, and that PS4 games need to be "ported" to PS5 because the APIs are so different is nonsense until we get confirmation Sony has ditched GNM.

Yeah seems like it. The thing that threw me off was him mentioning live service games as if there was any difference between a live service game and a non-live service game in this regard. I'm not hating on Grubb, I just would like to understand where he is coming from to further my understanding of the tech behind these consoles. Maybe he heard something from developers or he observed something himself but honestly just don't get what he is trying to say.

Right now if I had to summarize what he wrote it would look something like this: "Games on Xbox Series S/Series X will take advantage of framerates above 60 fps through backwards compatibility without needing to run through a native executable on next gen hardware which isn't the case with PS5 because PS4 cannot output games at more than 60 fps. This means that live service games without next gen patches/next gen upgrades run at above 60 fps on Xbox Series S/Series X and are capped at 60 fps on PS5."

Aside from that, are there any live service games with not just unlocked but also completely uncapped framerates on PS4 and Xbox One? Like, which live service games would this hypothetically apply to?

Avengers comes to mind but that game is capped at 60 fps and I doubt both next gen consoles have enough horsepower to run that game at 120 fps even at 1080p and PS4/Xbox One graphical settings.
 

MrFox

VFX Rendering Pipeline Developer
Verified
Jun 8, 2020
1,435
Exclusive : Jim Ryan's response when asked by Sony's Marketing team if they can send Jeff Grub and Austin Evans a PS5 console to review




Lol on a sidenote cannot wait to hear more from Digital Foundry! They will be fairly thorough with their coverage.

Okay okay we'll ask Mark Cerny instead...

148d.gif
 

Deleted member 9584

User requested account closure
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Oct 26, 2017
7,132
Exclusive : Jim Ryan's response when asked by Sony's Marketing team if they can send Jeff Grub and Austin Evans a PS5 console to review




Lol on a sidenote cannot wait to hear more from Digital Foundry! They will be fairly thorough with their coverage.
I know Grubb triggers Sony fans on this site (for some reason), but what's wrong with Austin Evans? I've watched a lot of his XSX coverage and I never noticed any disrespect / hostility towards PlayStation.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,136
Not that I mind, but this is kinda surprising to me after Tom was openly shitting on Sony because the PS5 Digital Edition doesn't run PS4 discs.
I don't think he was shitting on it, just a poorly thought out attempt at a joke since he deleted the tweet and the fact that xbox also has a digital only next gen console.
 

RedHeat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,681
I know Grubb triggers Sony fans on this site (for some reason), but what's wrong with Austin Evans? I've watched a lot of his XSX coverage and I never noticed any disrespect / hostility towards PlayStation.
He obviously has a pretty heavy bias towards MS/Xbox, with him featuring it in a lot of his videos. Also he called his friend for some reason during his DualSense video, to say the PS5 was "ugly".

But the actual reason is because he's loud and obnoxious.
 

Spinluck

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
28,400
Chicago
Are you also upset that many games also won't support Dolby Atmos features? Do you need to explain that to your non tech savvy friends? Are you also annoyed at the lack of 1080p logo present, do you have to explain that it will still work on their TV?

Does your opinion change if you can connect it to an 8K TV and throw in an 8K blu ray or watch 8K streaming when it eventually drops at some point this gen?

The console can output at 8K, it's really not misleading, if your friends are too stupid to understand that resolutions and framerates vary between games, that's on them. Will you flip out over nothing if a game gets published at some point that lands between 4k and 8k as tech like the AMD equivalent of DLSS tech improves? I don't know if that will happen, nor do I really care but the box doesn't say "plays games at 8k".

Did you care about the 4k label on the PS4 pro even though it was achieved through checkerboarding?

You're taking me laughing and calling an 8k label "bullshit" either way too seriously or way too personally.

For the sake of this thread, I will just say, agree to disagree? That cool? Ok, awesome.
 
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