PS5 Speculation |OT12| - Aw hell, Transistor's running this again?

[Rösti]

They very latest I can see Sony providing some form of update on PS5 is April 2X, 2020, in connection to the FY2019 Earnings Announcement. If we take a look at the FY2018 Earnings Announcement presentation from March 26, 2019, we can see there is a forecast for the forthcoming fiscal year provided for each business segment:

Source: https://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/library/presen/er/pdf/18q4_sonyspeech.pdf

An FY2020 forecast regarding the Game & Network Services Segment should be expected in the upcoming earnings announcement presentation. It may not provide any greater technical details on PS5 though.

As I have said before, I expect more concrete information on PS5 during Sony IR Day 2020 which will tentatively be in May (should be confirmed next week or so if it is still on schedule).

 

[Jroc]

They did with the PS3 and the PS4. The PS3 just ended up being to difficult to work on.

All I wil say is that making predictions based on some kinda precedent (accurate or flawed) is just a bad idea.

Right now what i am taking as my gospel is the stuff a lot of insiders have said. Not a single one has spoken towards the PS5 being weaker or there being a noticeable power gap. And that just can't be a coincidence.

Like if the PS5 is 8-9TF vs the XSX 12TF, by now someone would have said something.

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Ehh, PS3 vs 360 was basically a wash.

The PS3 Cell CPU could do GPU-like stuff, but it functioned worse than the Xenon when it came to traditional CPU tasks. Not to mention the PS3's weaker GPU and inferior RAM setup. You had to do a ton of extra work to get the Cell to perform like the Xenon, then you had to do additional work to have the Cell pick up the slack for the weak GPU.

You could do some unique things with the Cell (Uncharted 3's ship physics), but I wouldn't say that the 360 was weaker. Look at the Bethesda save system controversy for an example where the 360 had a clear hardware advantage.

 

[idioteque]

Just can't see Sony matching or beating the XSX for power at all in all honesty, and I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing either.

Sony has a good enough userbase and exclusive titles to release with lower specs and a lower price point. IMO, it would be silly for them to go for the power mantle and risk losing their customer base to the XSS.

They could always release a PS5 pro in a year or two's time and take the power crown from MS.

 

[Son_of_Oden]

We still have actually yet to see the performance implication of utilising it for various types of effects. It is rocking that it actually is not like Pascal or GCN. It is rocking that XSX can at all run minecraft DXR. Pascal or GCN just cannot do that at all.

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I don't know if it's youtube or the provided videos of Mincraft with RT ON but it looked like running pretty low on FPS or with stutters?

 

[the-pi-guy]

I seriously hope the PS5 does it's SSD way different than the XBSX is doing. Having to buy a proprietary memory card fucking sucks.

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It seems the most likely route.
Whatever they do will have to combine ease of use, and speed.

haptic triggers? I may be mistaken but Xbox have these since the launch of the OG machine in 2013?? ( I could be completely wrong here tho)

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It's not haptic triggers.
The controller has haptic feedback.
The triggers are adaptive, they can change the resistance.

 

[bcatwilly]

So Xbox has delivered in a huge way with this hardware, will be interesting to see whether Sony went for that same likely higher price point now when they eventually decide to give more information out for those starved in this thread. And the possibility of a cheaper Lockhart option makes things all the more interesting with the unfortunate global economic impacts occurring and to come from the stupid coronavirus.

 

[orava]

At least Sony has the advantage of knowing exactly what their competitor has on offer and can tailor their response accordingly.

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They should just tell the facts instead of spins or misleading "tailoring".

 

[Pheonix]

Do you guys think Sony will follow in line with MS doing these piecemeal surprise info dumps or will they go the "an announcement of an announcement" route for a full blowout?

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They will announce a PS state of play. Probably not say what they will be talking about though.

Or may just reply to someone on twitter asking f there would be PS5news with a "Yes."

 

[thuway]

Bye bye everyone.

Doctor Avatar III-V anexanhume VX1 FF Seraphim DrKeo Xeontech
You will find me there. Have fun as long you wait for the PS5 reveal. Hope it will follow soon.

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We will miss you bro.

So Xbox has delivered in a huge way with this hardware, will be interesting to see whether Sony went for that same likely higher price point now when they eventually decide to give more information out for those starved in this thread. And the possibility of a cheaper Lockhart option makes things all the more interesting with the unfortunate global economic impacts occurring and to come from the stupid coronavirus.

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Prepare for the landing Bro. The monster is coming 👑

 

[modiz]

I dont know Sony's marketing roadmap, but at this point I dont think that doing additional drip feed news of the PS5 will do them any good, I would stay silent until I have gameplay footage and trailers of many next gen games and show them all at one stream at this point, even if Sony got some leads in specifications, they should just focus on games and the experience rather than technical detail now (sure they must talk about those, but keep them always in the context of games, talk about a feature and showcase it in practice).

 

[Dan Thunder]

haptic triggers? I may be mistaken but Xbox have these since the launch of the OG machine in 2013?? ( I could be completely wrong here tho)

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No, the XB1 controller has separate rumble in each half that could vibrate independently. Modern haptic feedback is more to do with the different sensations you can get. If you've ever played 1-2 Switch there's a game that simulates holding a box with marbles in. As you tilt it you can 'feel' the balls rolling around. That's more what Sony are aiming for, rather than just vibrating independently it'll give a different feel i.e. the triggers can be made stiffer or looser if you're using different guns or different cars etc.

 

[Expy]

I dont know Sony's marketing roadmap, but at this point I dont think that doing additional drip feed news of the PS5 will do them any good, I would stay silent until I have gameplay footage and trailers of many next gen games and show them all at one stream at this point, even if Sony got some leads in specifications, they should just focus on games and the experience rather than technical detail now (sure they must talk about those, but keep them always in the context of games, talk about a feature and showcase it in practice).

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Yep, I believe they're holding out for a more full reveal with next-gen launch games, both first and third party.

 

[PJV3]

I dont know Sony's marketing roadmap, but at this point I dont think that doing additional drip feed news of the PS5 will do them any good, I would stay silent until I have gameplay footage and trailers of many next gen games and show them all at one stream at this point, even if Sony got some leads in specifications, they should just focus on games and the experience rather than technical detail now (sure they must talk about those, but keep them always in the context of games, talk about a feature and showcase it in practice).

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They are running out of time for drip feeding info if they are still launching this year, so yeah, i would prefer a huge summer blowout if nothing is coming this month.

 

[the-pi-guy]

The Series X wasn't tested in Github, just mentioned. Also it's a very incomplete data set. I in no way think it's 100% final hardware, but it shows at the time a part of what was being worked on. Today's reveal doesn't change anything as far as GitHub being the only information about ps5 we have. My add-on is that I never thought Sony would go for a power crown, because they don't do that normally.

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I don't think Sony has ever had a weaker console at the time of release.
PS4 was strongest.
PS3 was practically on par with the 360, but that's probably because it was delayed.
PS2 was weaker than GCN, and Xbox, but it came out over a year earlier.

Not sure about PS1.

 

[Pheonix]

Ehh, PS3 vs 360 was basically a wash.

The PS3 Cell CPU could do GPU-like stuff, but it functioned worse than the Xenon when it came to traditional CPU tasks. Not to mention the PS3's weaker GPU and inferior RAM setup. You had to do a ton of extra work to get the Cell to perform like the Xenon, then you had to do additional work to have the Cell pick up the slack for the weak GPU.

You could do some unique things with the Cell (Uncharted 3's ship physics), but I wouldn't say that the 360 was weaker. Look at the Bethesda save system controversy for an example where the 360 had a clear hardware advantage.

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It doesn't change that sony went for the power crown. As I aid, the PS3 was just harder to work with. Don't forget the PS3 had a BOM of over $800.

Point of all that is to dispel this theory that sony would always go fr the cheaper option when in truth nothing about their history suggests so.

 

[Dictator]

I don't know if it's youtube or the provided videos of Mincraft with RT ON but it looked like running pretty low on FPS or with stutters?

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John and I will talk about it in a video, but the video released is not representative of the fluidity it should be.

 

[III-V]

Bye bye everyone.

Doctor Avatar III-V anexanhume VX1 FF Seraphim DrKeo Xeontech
You will find me there. Have fun as long you wait for the PS5 reveal. Hope it will follow soon.

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Haha thanks. I will now have to post in two threads I guess.

 

[Radium217]

Sorry if it has been said but what price are we thinking for XSX?

 

[Carmelozi]

John and I will talk about it in a video, but the video released is not representative of the fluidity it should be.

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Is it the same RT system you shown in the old minecraft video?

 

[Expy]

Sorry if it has been said but what price are we thinking for XSX?

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This isn't the thread for XSX anymore.

 

[Koralsky]

Sony should also be doing the same free patches with first party games even from the disks with no update charges or anything else.

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I am a developer with access to more information on Series X though MS dev site. Because of NDA, of course, I will use what DF guys are saying in their overview of the console.

So, they have not mentioned (free) patches anywhere regarding Gears 5 for Series X. They are using "port", "porting process". Based on this we are talking about completely different executables (One and One X are using the same executable). In other words, based on the DF information you are not going to download the old One X version with some Series X visual updates though patches, but a completely new fully native Series X version of the Gears 5. For free. And this is amazing from Microsoft. Most probably it will be the same with Cyberpunk 2077 (and all of the cross-gen titles) on Series X - we are talking about two different versions.

If you are using original Xbox One/S you will practically receive a remastered version for free. Yeah, good times.

 

[est1992]

Thread title change lmaooo

 

[Son_of_Oden]

John and I will talk about it in a video, but the video released is not representative of the fluidity it should be.

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Sehr gut! Freu mich drauf. ;)

 

[Radium217]

This isn't the thread for XSX anymore.

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Oh **** I'm shook

 

[Axel Stone]

No, the XB1 controller has separate rumble in each half that could vibrate independently. Modern haptic feedback is more to do with the different sensations you can get. If you've ever played 1-2 Switch there's a game that simulates holding a box with marbles in. As you tilt it you can 'feel' the balls rolling around. That's more what Sony are aiming for, rather than just vibrating independently it'll give a different feel i.e. the triggers can be made stiffer or looser if you're using different guns or different cars etc.

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XO controller has separate rumble in the triggers as well.

 

[Dictator]

Is it the same RT system you shown in the old minecraft video?

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This is minecraft DXR so it is the official path tracing running through DX12 and hardware accelleration. Not the user mod. This will be more feature complete than that mod and have better performance on hardware RT cards for what it is doing.

 

[MrKlaw]

Sony's gonna have a hard time stacking up to the Series X.

I'll say one thing, if it ends being noticeably weaker as it seems it's going to be, it better not be a hot-running, loud-ass jet engine. Microsoft is promising a cool and silent console, despite the power it's bringing.

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I mean it shouldn't really - 360mm is about average for an APU and is about the size the original PS4 was. 16GB is about what people are expecting and only 2x PS4 so is the minimum people should expect. And they've already talked about SSD speeds.

Critical things for me are whether they burned die space for a bigger bus width and how many CUs. And of course the sprinkles around the optimsations/customisations

But overall - yes the XSX looks damn good - but its doable I think

 

[PJV3]

This isn't the thread for XSX anymore.

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This is the thin gruel of the PS5 variety.
We need meat.

 

[Dan Thunder]

XO controller has separate rumble in the triggers as well.

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Sorry yes, that's what I was referring to as the difference between rumble features on the PS4/XB1.

 

[III-V]

This is minecraft DXR so it is the official path tracing running through DX12 and hardware accelleration. Not the user mod. This will be more feature complete than that mod and have better performance on hardware RT cards for what it is doing.

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I imagine this will be highlighted in your upcoming video.

 

[MrKlaw]

It will be the same thing that they are doing now and like MSis doing and has also always done. Makes no sense having another chip doing that an not worth the extra costs. Same way how it also makes no sense having some external pool of DDR4 ram either when you have a bleeding fast SSD.

1 CPU core would be reserved for OS.

The memory thing though is interesting. If sony goes with 8 2GB GDDR6 chis in a 256bit bus and is using 16Gbs chips, they have a total system bandwidth of 512GB/s. That's lower than the peak bandwidth of the series X but that peak bandwidth only applies to 10GB of its RAM.

Funny thing is that the XSX has a bandwidth average of around 448GB/s across its two pools of unified RAM.

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Assuming MS are accurate in their discussions with devs and the data their profiling tools provide - then then weird bandwidth split works ok for them. GPU gets full bandwidth to 10GB, and only slower access to 3.5 (the rest is for OS). by MS's account, that 3.5 is easily used by non-GPU critical data, and the CPU doesn't have capacity for anywhere near that bandwidth. So it could be a really smart balance of cost/die size and performance.

 

[N.47H.4N]

So Tommy Fisher nailed XsX,maybe he was right all the time,lets see if he got PS5 right too.

 

[anexanhume]

They should just tell the facts instead of spins or misleading "tailoring".

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So you're suggesting they shouldn't highlight differences between their platforms? I don't know how else to interpret your comments.

 

[Carmelozi]

This is minecraft DXR so it is the official path tracing running through DX12 and hardware accelleration. Not the user mod. This will be more feature complete than that mod and have better performance on hardware RT cards for what it is doing.

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Ah I forgot it was a mod, but the video was so good that I imagined what cell-shading games could do with this. I'm not a minecraft player but I'm curious about RT so I'll watch you upcoming video on this subject.

 

[modiz]

So Tommy Fisher nailed XsX,maybe he was right all the time,lets see if he got PS5 right too.

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I am still keeping low expectattions on this, its clear that they knew the specfications of the Xbox Series X, but they might as well have been trolling with all other sony stuff, like PSM happening in february (klee also said that so maybe there really was a plan like that at some point) or remedy already been acquired.

 

[AudiophileRS]

I seriously hope the PS5 does it's SSD way different than the XBSX is doing. Having to buy a proprietary memory card fucking sucks.

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They have to maintain a minimum, known spec for their drives if they want devs to take full advantage of them or else you risk breaking compatibility. It's not just a matter of load times but the fundamentals of the world design and functionality.

Outside of curating lists of capably spec'd third party SSDs, this is the best option. It also keeps it simple for the less technically versed as it won't be as simple as an SSD needing to have a theoretical peak speed, but sustained speeds across different types of read/write operations as well as familiar characteristics in terms of latency and parallelism.

I suspect the RAM architecture and the I/O stack are heavily tailored to this SSD spec too.

It's honestly the best all-round solution.

Fingers crossed they're not tone deaf with the pricing of the expansion.

 

[Pheonix]

I mean it shouldn't really - 360mm is about average for an APU and is about the size the original PS4 was. 16GB is about what people are expecting and only 2x PS4 so is the minimum people should expect. And they've already talked about SSD speeds.

Critical things for me are whether they burned die space for a bigger bus width and how many CUs. And of course the sprinkles around the optimsations/customisations

But overall - yes the XSX looks damn good - but its doable I think

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Exactly... I have just decided to ignore people talking like that.

A 360mm2 chip isn't out of the question at all and isn't the hardest thing to match. It also falls in line with what sony did in 2013. Sony could even use a slightly smaller chip and still end up matching it or being more powerful by using a smaller memory bus. Or could clock their CPU lower and their GPU higher.

Sony could very well end up with a 48CU GPU clocked at 2GHz, with a smaller 256bit bus and a lower clocked CPU and end up being more powerful than the XSX while having a smaller chip.

Like there are so many possibilities.

 

[Shambala]

Bye bye everyone.

Doctor Avatar III-V anexanhume VX1 FF Seraphim DrKeo Xeontech
You will find me there. Have fun as long you wait for the PS5 reveal. Hope it will follow soon.

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Amen

 

[aisback]

It'll be funny if we get a wired article tomorrow

 

[DrKeo]

Just saying...

From December:

We do "know" the following:
- 320-bit bus (according to the E3 CGI).
- A mix of 1GB and 2GB GDDR6 14Gbps (according to the E3 CGI).
- 16GB in total, 13GB for developers and 3GB for OS (according to Windows Central)
That info gives us an idea of what to expect (if the info is correct of course):
- 10GB at 560GB/s.
- 6GB at 336GB/s.
My guess is that MS assumes that because 3GB is dedicated to the OS and ~3GB of RAM will be used for non-VRAM use (just like games on PC are using a few GB of the system memory) then it's OK that 6GB is running slower, it's much faster than DDR4 after all which would have been more than fast enough for OS and game memory.

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Colbert DukeBlueBall VX1

 

[AegonSnake]

No the decompression hardware they have is able to uncompress 6GB/s but the speed is 4.8GB/s for uncompressed data. This is not 6 GB/s.

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wait. the die size is only 360mm2?

this explains 52 CUs actually.

 

[Deleted member 12635]

wait. the die size is only 360mm2?

this explains 52 CUs actually.

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52/56

 

[solis74]

Btw, both videos still say Holiday 2020 at the end, doesn't sound like a delay to me after the whole COVID-19 issue.

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[DukeBlueBall]

Damn, the distortion of the die pic threw me off when calculating the die size. Well done MS.

 

[Chamon]

This is minecraft DXR so it is the official path tracing running through DX12 and hardware accelleration. Not the user mod. This will be more feature complete than that mod and have better performance on hardware RT cards for what it is doing.

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So, is this above or below your own expectations you had some time ago? Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you guys at DF weren't expecting much. (I'm asking because I don't know if I should get excited yet or not 😂)

 

[Jimmypython]

It would be interesting if PS5 games would use those SSD cards as actual game cartridges. So the game could load directly from those cards, i.e. no installation.

It it probably not possible tho for the price.

 

[headspawn]

Damn, digital foundry was having some fun.

Did you guys spy and lockharts hiding anywhere?

 

[ody]

im getting goosebumps thinking about that 13tf ps5

 

[Elandyll]

Gotta wonder if today's dump from MS was precipitated by an upcoming PS5 reveal that might be closer than some think...

I mean, there's weeks worth of reveals right there, all dumped at the same time, which I find sort of "weird" in a build-the-hype marketing technique way.

In any case, really looking forward to the PS5 reveal, whether it's a slightly under or all ghtly over.
We're getting a beast anyways, with hardware RT and more :)

 

[Dan Thunder]

It would be interesting if PS5 games would use those SSD cards as actual game cartridges. So the game could load directly from those cards, i.e. no installation.

It it probably not possible tho for the price.

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A Blu-Ray disc costs pennies. Even a cheap bog-standard SSD costs over £20.