Yeah, that might be it. Sounds like your best bet is an HDMI audio extractor.
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PS5 doesn't have optical audio port
- Thread starter Adahel
- Start date
So are you saying that with Astro headphones that will use their HDMI audio extractor to Optical, we will not be able to listen to Tempest 3D audio? I really doubt that is the case. I would be very surprised if this is encoding the stereo signal into anything outside of an LPCM standard, because if that was the case what could even play that audio?
I'm leaning more into an USB->Optical adapter as I kind of doubt the claim that these cheap HDMI sound extractors offer a perfect video signal passthrough.
Only issue with that is you'll only get stereo sound, as I don't believe the PS4 will push surround over USB.
HDMI extractor it is then. As I'm trying to avoid having a passthrough video through this adapter, I think I'll try placing it onto the ARC HDMI connector on my TV, and then just use the optical out into the receiver. So I'll dedicate that one HDMI input solely for audio-out purpose. That is, if my TV even has a surround output through ARC. I may still end up with just stereo this way.
I haven't heard of a TV not supporting surround through ARC. What brand is it? They all pretty much at least do Dolby Digital.
I was assuming compressed formats for 7.1 over TOSLINK. My main point is outside of binaural-encoded stereo, however the audio itself is compressed/transmitted (LPCM, mp3, analog, 2.1 DD, FLAC, whatever), which is meant to be decoded by human brains (hence the whole HRTF thing), I'm not aware of there being a Tempest-specific digital audio format at all, in any form.
As for references, I found this which has some familiar points:
https://hometheaterreview.com/is-sony-giving-atmos-fans-the-shaft-with-playstation-5/
Is this where you were coming from? I haven't found much else so far.
I have a Sony TV with ARC and the PS4 is already on one of the ARC HDMI ports. So all I need to do i plug my Astro's optical into the optical port on the TV and I'm golden?
It's the LG 55EC9300. I'm sure you're right, and it should support at least DD5.1 through ARC, but I had similar hopes for its optical out, which didn't pan out. Can you confirm that what I'm planning to do makes sense? If I'm willing to 'sacrifice' one ARC HDMI port for the audio out purpose and not use it for any kind of video, there's nothing preventing me from doing so?
That's not how things work.
Sound devices operate on large numbers of channels internally. An old Sound Blaster Live! from the '90s was using 32 channels of sound. The Audigy upgraded that to 64 channels, and the X-Fi supported 128.
That is basically the limit for how many sounds can be played, processed, and mixed, at once.
Those channels are then mixed to suit the output device; whether that's a stereo pair of headphones/speakers, 3.1, 4.0, 5.1, 7.1, or something more.
It doesn't output 32 channels of sound to your headphones; it's mixed down to 2 channels (stereo) with appropriate processing to give you virtual surround or 3D audio.
That's how I can demo 3D sound in a game that used 128 channels of audio in a YouTube video:
This has a stereo audio track, and it's heavily compressed to be sent over the internet, but retains that 3D positional information.
It was also recorded via TOSLINK.
What you described is actually how Atmos/DTS:X work.
Those do output the channels to your receiver along with positional metadata, which is then processed to the appropriate speaker layout; whether that's 5.1.2, 7.2.4 or something else.
But that doesn't mean games are limited to 32 channels of audio. The XSX could process hundreds of channels which are then mixed down to a 32-channel output for your Atmos-capable receiver.
Sony are not supporting additional discrete channels for things like height with Tempest audio.
They are planning to use virtualized channels instead. You won't get anything more than a 7.1 LPCM output.
For 3D Audio via headphones, or compressed 5.1 audio via speakers, S/PDIF is still sufficient.
Sure, HDMI would upgrade that from lossy compression to uncompressed audio for the speakers, but that is not required for it to work.
Ok I have some free time on lunchbreak and maybe we can clear a few things up.
Edit: an error wiped out a 25 minute response here, so my reply is going to be more brief than I would prefer.
First- let's clear up some terms:
training.npr.org
In terms of spatial audio complexity- Stereo > Surround > Binaural > Ambisonics. This will be important later.
Why are we talking about how old sound technology worked in the 90s? We already know direct from Cerny that the Tempest Engine supports hundreds of simultaneous objects that can be played at once.
Immediately after that quote from Cerny, Dolby put out PR to clarify that Atmos is also capable of handling hundreds of discrete audio sources simultaneously, though there are reasons why you would not do this.
Ok, I'm aware this is how Atmos and DTS:X work (as does Auro 3D and a few others) and Tempest is a competing format to these. Sony has been explicit that the PS5 will not support Dolby Atmos, because Tempest serves the same function. Any object based surround solution is going to be processed and output by Tempest.
I also never said anything about 32 channels of Audio. CERNY did, but his quote was dealing with the current limitations of Atmos as it exists on Xbox and Windows. The XSX at present *cannot* process hundreds of objects currently as Tempest can, because the tools Dolby provides currently only support up to 32 objects. In THEORY this limit is higher, but Dolby has not yet made these tools available. They likely will eventually in the future, but at present? It's not possible.
Ok- to be as clear as possible, Object based audio doesn't use discrete channels as Surround Sound does. It is all virtualized.
Object Based 3D audio will use as many speakers as your receiver can support to create the 3D sound field. It ALL virtualized and the concept of discrete channels of 5, 6, or 7 speakers is no longer valid. You have two dozen speakers, it can support it. *Atmos* requires speakers to address height and create these sound fields but this isn't required. DTS:X as well as Tempest can create these fields without them.
www.definitivetechnology.com
So moving on, It's important to note that the PS5 is using Ambisonics in creating its 3D audio:
And Ambisonics defined:
So Ambisonic audio- which the PS5 is using- uses an undefined (N-orders) number of digital sound channels, with sound quality increasing with the number of channels used, and once decoded by a receiver that can handle it, decodes to a binaural stream. This is, once again- NOT stereo. Important to note though, that this is not a technical limit. Sony has already committed to a solution that creates an object oriented 3D soundfield using 5.1, 7.1, or higher but this will not come at launch due to the complexity of the software alorithm involved:
So no- your TOSLINK cable is not capable of supporting this kind of solution. It is far too bandwidth intensive, because Tempest and the object oriented 3D audio solutions like it need a high bandwidth connection capable of handling a ton of channels before they can decode that into a binaural sound field, EVEN IF that's just going to headphones. And eventually we'll be looking at decoding to not just a binaural output, but 8 or more speakers if the dev wants it. There is no hard limit to the amount of speakers it can support, because it's an adaptable, virtualized solution.
Edit: an error wiped out a 25 minute response here, so my reply is going to be more brief than I would prefer.
First- let's clear up some terms:
A beginner’s guide to spatial audio in 360-degree video
A team at NPR is experimenting with immersive video and audio — and has tips on recording, editing, building a rig and more.
training.npr.org
In terms of spatial audio complexity- Stereo > Surround > Binaural > Ambisonics. This will be important later.
Why are we talking about how old sound technology worked in the 90s? We already know direct from Cerny that the Tempest Engine supports hundreds of simultaneous objects that can be played at once.
Immediately after that quote from Cerny, Dolby put out PR to clarify that Atmos is also capable of handling hundreds of discrete audio sources simultaneously, though there are reasons why you would not do this.
Ok, I'm aware this is how Atmos and DTS:X work (as does Auro 3D and a few others) and Tempest is a competing format to these. Sony has been explicit that the PS5 will not support Dolby Atmos, because Tempest serves the same function. Any object based surround solution is going to be processed and output by Tempest.
I also never said anything about 32 channels of Audio. CERNY did, but his quote was dealing with the current limitations of Atmos as it exists on Xbox and Windows. The XSX at present *cannot* process hundreds of objects currently as Tempest can, because the tools Dolby provides currently only support up to 32 objects. In THEORY this limit is higher, but Dolby has not yet made these tools available. They likely will eventually in the future, but at present? It's not possible.
Ok- to be as clear as possible, Object based audio doesn't use discrete channels as Surround Sound does. It is all virtualized.
Object Based 3D audio will use as many speakers as your receiver can support to create the 3D sound field. It ALL virtualized and the concept of discrete channels of 5, 6, or 7 speakers is no longer valid. You have two dozen speakers, it can support it. *Atmos* requires speakers to address height and create these sound fields but this isn't required. DTS:X as well as Tempest can create these fields without them.
Definitive Technology™ - High Tech Speakers & Audio Systems
Our obsession to build best-in-class audio products all starts in the home and is forever aligned to exceed your unrelenting expectations. Shop here.
www.definitivetechnology.com
So moving on, It's important to note that the PS5 is using Ambisonics in creating its 3D audio:
And Ambisonics defined:
So Ambisonic audio- which the PS5 is using- uses an undefined (N-orders) number of digital sound channels, with sound quality increasing with the number of channels used, and once decoded by a receiver that can handle it, decodes to a binaural stream. This is, once again- NOT stereo. Important to note though, that this is not a technical limit. Sony has already committed to a solution that creates an object oriented 3D soundfield using 5.1, 7.1, or higher but this will not come at launch due to the complexity of the software alorithm involved:
So no- your TOSLINK cable is not capable of supporting this kind of solution. It is far too bandwidth intensive, because Tempest and the object oriented 3D audio solutions like it need a high bandwidth connection capable of handling a ton of channels before they can decode that into a binaural sound field, EVEN IF that's just going to headphones. And eventually we'll be looking at decoding to not just a binaural output, but 8 or more speakers if the dev wants it. There is no hard limit to the amount of speakers it can support, because it's an adaptable, virtualized solution.
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Changed my settings on the ps5 Pro to bitstream and it does have 5.1 but due to my headphones running out of battery in an endgame 1 v 1 moment in Fortnite I switched over to the 5500. I'm not sure if it's because I'm not used to playing my ps4 with my 5500 these days (since my Pro is ridiculously loud) but i thought it had a slight delay.
Checked with some videos after and I think it's actually ok but I'm paranoid now that I have a delay lol.
Like the CX, the C9 indeed does have some delay over Dolby Digital. It's worse with ARC. LG doesn't seem to care to fix it.
Yeah, I've just learned about this also. Ah, just great.
ARC isn't like your typical audio out. You can't do ARC out as a typical in.
If you're worried about screwing with picture quality, you might try one of these:
Amazon.com: HDMI ARC Adapter, Tendak ARC Audio Extractor with Digital Optical TOSLINK SPDIF/Coaxial and Analog 3.5mm L/R Stereo Audio Converter for HDTV Soundbar Speaker Amplifier: Electronics
Buy HDMI ARC Adapter, Tendak ARC Audio Extractor with Digital Optical TOSLINK SPDIF/Coaxial and Analog 3.5mm L/R Stereo Audio Converter for HDTV Soundbar Speaker Amplifier: Home Audio Crossovers & Parts - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases
www.amazon.com
Basically it would go:
Console -> TV
TV (ARC input) -> Extractor
Extractor (optical) -> Receiver (optical)
The problem is that most of these don't support Dolby Digital, so you're stuck with 2.0 anyways. However, I will say that I use an HDMI audio extractor, this one to be exact:
I use it in my living room to extract audio to go to a separate amp for my patio speakers, and it works fantastic. If there's picture quality degradation, I don't see it.
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From the digging I did online, it seems that LG just poorly implemented ARC making it so that unless you're using the the built in speakers, there is a processing delay.
I've heard that earc eliminates any kind of delay. I speant about 1000$ last year on my current sound system (non-earc compliant) so I'm not looking to upgrade anytime soon. That being said, I'm going to bite the bullet on an Earc converter. I've heard a few reports from people saying that this completely eliminated any audio delay.
I'm trying this one
THENAUDIO – Add EARC to Any Sound System
Enable any home theater sound system to accept TV EARC sound formats up to its full potential – enjoy audio as it was intended for the content.
thenaudio.com
Is it actually the display or the receiver though?
I've seen some people complain about significant delays, while others say there's no latency at all. Of course, part of that could be perception rather than an actual difference.
I was explaining the difference between the large number of audio channels processed on a device vs the audio channels output to a receiver, since many people seem to confuse Atmos' ability to output 32 channels as a limitation of the XSX being able to only process 32 channels.
The PS5 is not going to be outputting more than 8 channels (7.1).
Tempest processes hundreds of channels on the device.
It does not output these channels to the receiver. They are processed and mixed to a standard stereo (2ch) 5.1 (6ch) or 7.1 (8ch) format. Maybe others in-between too.
Sony is not creating a competing format to Atmos and releasing its own brand of AVRs which support "Tempest Audio".
Having discrete height channels means that if your setup has additional height speakers - say four in-ceiling speakers for a 5.1.4 setup - the AVR can send audio to those directly.
Virtualized height channels mean that those in-ceiling are playing nothing. The PS5 outputs a 5.1 signal and processes the audio to try and make it sound as though it's coming from overhead, but cannot directly address the speakers above you.
That's why people with Atmos setups have been disappointed that Sony said they will not be supporting the format. If you want those height speakers to do anything, you would have to enable the Dolby upmixer to send some of the audio to the height channels; but that will probably interfere with whatever processing Sony are doing.
And right now, Sony have said that they haven't figured out all the details for virtualized height in surround sound - so it won't be supported at launch.
As I said, the Xbox can process hundreds of channels.
Then those hundreds of channels can be mixed down to a 32-channel Atmos bed which is output to the AVR.
The AVR takes those 32 channels and processes them appropriately for the current speaker layout.
Atmos/DTS:X work like this.
Tempest does not. Tempest outputs 5.1 or 7.1 LPCM for your surround system. Or 2.0 if you're using headphones for 3D Audio. The virtualization happens on the PS5.
S/PDIF can handle uncompressed stereo audio or compressed 5.1
The only benefit to replacing an S/PDIF receiver with one which supports HDMI is that uncompressed 5.1 can now be supported. That's it.
HDMI is not a requirement for Tempest audio to work.
I'm reading basics on what ARC is and i don't see how this helps us with old optical headsets at all.
wait for some more HDMI 2.1 Recievers if you want something that you wont have to change out sooner than later.
Denon | Enhance the Entertainment Experience
Every detail of a Denon audio product is crafted with a single goal in mind: to enhance the entertainment experience.
usa.denon.com
I can only comment on ARC with my CX, as I haven't tried over optical, but there's definitely a delay through it. I highly think it's the TV because there is zero delay with PCM. It only exists with Dolby Digital. I have a Pioneer Elite VSX-90. Sending DD and PCM to the receiver and then to the TV gives no delay. Sending PCM from the TV to the receiver with ARC gives no delay. It's only when I use DD (including Atmos) from the TV to the receiver using ARC do I get the delay.
ARC won't help with that at all. Really only an HDMI audio extractor will help with that.
ARC has very little to do with headphone setups. ARC is really more about surround sound setups.
Sorry, what I mean is that it may not be the TV causing the delay when ARC is used - not that there is no delay.
It could be that the AVR has a delay with these formats over ARC, which would be present with any TV, and using another AVR with the C9/CX may not have that problem.
Of course it may just be the C9/CX, but some people report that it's not a problem in their setup with that display.
From the digging I did online, it seems that LG just poorly implemented ARC making it so that unless you're using the the built in speakers, there is a processing delay.
I've heard that earc eliminates any kind of delay. I speant about 1000$ last year on my current sound system (non-earc compliant) so I'm not looking to upgrade anytime soon. That being said, I'm going to bite the bullet on an Earc converter. I've heard a few reports from people saying that this completely eliminated any audio delay.
I'm trying this one
THENAUDIO – Add EARC to Any Sound System
Enable any home theater sound system to accept TV EARC sound formats up to its full potential – enjoy audio as it was intended for the content.
Luckily my amp has earc. I've never tried to use it as currently everything runs into the amp directly but to get the benefits of the HDMI 2.1 from the new consoles I'll have to go direct to the TV and earc sound to the amp. I really hope it works as I don't want to have to choose between 2.1 stuff or no audio lag.
In this day and age this shit should just work!
Currently, I'm going like this:
PS4 Pro -> Pioneer VSX-90 (input 1)
Xbox One S -> Pioneer VSX-90 (input 2)
PC w/ Nvidia 1070 -> Pioneer VSX-90 (input 3)
Switch -> Pioneer VSX-90 (input 4)
Pioneer VSX-90 (output 1) -> LG CX (input 2 for ARC)
I get extremely little lag doing this from my consoles when it comes to gaming. I use the ARC output on the TV so I can use the TV apps (for Dolby Vision and whatnot). I was able to fudge around with the sync settings on the TV and the receiver to make the lag practically non-existent on ARC, but that's really going to depend on the capabilities of the receiver.
It's possible. There are just a ton of complaints about the X9 and ARC lag over DD. Also it's worth noting that some people aren't as sensitive to lip sync issues so they may not notice. There are a ton of variables.
You are directly contradicting what's in the deep dive with this as well as the other additional linked info. 3D audio does not use discrete channels. Saying the PS5 is "just sending 5.1" is nonsense. The tech doesn't work like that.
The PS5 supports object based 3D audio using Ambisonic technology, and explicitly does not use Dolby Atmos to do it. If Tempest does not work EXACTLY as Atmos and DTS:X do, then object oriented 3D audio from the PS5 would be impossible. It is NOT 5.1 or 7.1, and direct statements from Sony contradict this.
Your confusion seems to be coming from thinking that it can't be possible to do Object Oriented 3D audio unless it has Atmos or DTS:X stamped on it, but that isn't accurate. Those formats incorporate the software that allows your receiver to understand the signal, but it is not proprietary to them and any receiver that supports such audio from those two would be able to recognize it coming from the PS5. 3D audio is 3D audio. Atmos and DTS:X are just branding.
Obviously Sony wouldn't create their own format that required everyone to run out and grab a new receiver. Their solution with the PS5 will be compatible with any receiver that's currently capable of 3D audio.
edit: Denon has recently released PR on their PS5 and XSX friendly receivers that backs this up. Marantz and Yamaha have done the same. These are standard midrange receivers that don't need specialized "tempest audio" integration. There does not need to be a "tempest audio" receiver for the PS5's audio solution to work.
Denon Unveils New PS5 And Xbox Series X-Friendly AV Receivers
More proof of how the worlds of gaming and home theater are about to collide like never before
www.forbes.com
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Sounds like a lot of work but glad you are happy with it now.
Playing around with it lore and it seems PCM results in no lag but bitstream does which is shitty because bitstream sounds better.
Also seems to be worse in game than watching video's but maybe that's just me.
Not sure what to do now, gonna just deal with it for the moment I suppose since I'm not spending more out on a new surround sound system after getting the C9 and the upcoming ps5.
Unless you're using Dolby Atmos or DTS:X for the extra presence sound, bitstream in no way sounds better than PCM. PCM is basically raw uncompressed sound data.
And it's actually less work than it sounds. Everything plugs into the receiver and then the receiver plugs into the TV. It's really that simple.
Bitstream shouldn't sound better since it's lossy while PCM is lossless. It would only sound better in the sense that if you were limited to 2.0 PCM, you'd only have stereo instead of surround sound, but from an audio quality level, PCM is better.
Well better maybe the wrong choice, I noticed that PCM is quieter and I have to turn it up a lot more than with the bitstream option.
That might be some sort of volume equalization or dynamic range setting on your receiver or something. I know my receiver allows per-signal / per-source adjustments.
EDIT: Nevermind. I think Darknight hit on it below.
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Wait, is this the Logitech 5500 system you're doing this on? The problem with that would be your 5500 doesn't handle 5.1 PCM so you're probably dropping channels which is why it sounds quieter. Also, if you're going HDMI to the TV and then optical to the 5500, you won't get 5.1 PCM that way either since PCM is limited to 2.0 over optical.
Nooooooo... well this is going to be a super expensive purchase for me now. Have to buy a new receiver. Fuck.
Yeah it's the Logitech z 5500 I'm using and that all makes sense.
Thing is though that I swear (I don't need around with the audio settings much) that it's always been set the pcm and over optical and 5.1 has worked fine before?
It's just not possible because optical is limited to 2.0 PCM. Now maybe the Logitech does something to do a dolby pro logic style virtualized surround sound to it, but you will not get 5.1 PCM over optical. For that hardware, you want to do bitstream if you want discrete surround sound. So ya, bistream sounded better but that's really because you were dropping all sorts of sound including the center channel which is where a lot of sound comes from, especially dialog. No wonder it sounded quieter.
Ah-ha! Here's what you need to do. Since that's a PC speaker system, it has PC speaker inputs. You need an extractor that will convert 5.1 LPCM to multichannel output. You need this:
Amazon.com: HDMI LPCM 5.1 7.1 To Analog Surround Decoder With Repeater Function: Musical Instruments
Buy HDMI LPCM 5.1 7.1 To Analog Surround Decoder With Repeater Function: A-D & D-A Converters - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases
www.amazon.com
Granted, those might not work with HDCP 2.3, so things like Netflix and stuff might not work with it. It's worth checking to find if there's one that does, though.
I'm such an idiot.
It's the Logitech z906, not the z 5500.
Had it for at least a decade so got it confused lol.
The multichannel extractor I posted should still work with that. Basically the outputs from the extractor would go into the black / orange / green ports on the subwoofer. Unfortunately, it seems like most only support 1080p or older HDCP versions.
From the looks of it, the same still applies to that model too.
Thanks for the advice, since I plan to use it for the 4k TV it seems I'm a little screwed. Might just have to see how it goes, I tend to only use headphones for games these days because of the loud Pro donors only YouTube and Netflix i use the 5.1 for.
Thanks for the help.
I'm amazed that they haven't yet. But I guess due to HDMI constantly evolving, it would be a mess as things moved forward. They should just sell a branded extractor.
Okay, I did make this a bit confusing because we used to use "channels" rather than "objects" for sounds being processed - so I used them interchangeably.
A sound card like the X-Fi with "128 channels" could process 128 objects in 3D space. There's not really any difference.
My point is that the number of objects processed is not linked to the number of channels or objects output.
You could have a device simulating hundreds or thousands of objects around you (Tempest) but the output is still going to be a 2 channel signal for your headphones. It doesn't output thousands of objects to an external processing device. The PS5 does the processing itself.
That's why you won't need any special hardware for 3D Audio on the PS5; but also why it's not supporting discrete height channels.
As I understood it, the PS5 is processing object-based audio, but still outputting to a static channel layout.
Meanwhile the XSX processes object-based audio, and outputs those objects (or a mixdown) to an Atmos-capable receiver. The receiver then determines how to best send that to your speaker layout.
Is there a generic object-based audio standard that existing sound devices already support?