• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

CookieMonster

Member
Oct 30, 2017
156
For those with a bit more technical know how than me can someone answer me this?

On my ps4 pro now if I play a hdr game, then go back to the ps4 menu (without exiting the game), hdr "stays on" and all my colours on the main menu etc look washed out. If i close the game, the screen goes black and back to sdr and my colours look normal again once the change has been made.

Does the ps5 with hdr on all the time mean my colours are always going to look washed out on games etc that don't support hdr? This is a real downer if true.
I think you're correct. Its the same way with Netflix on both PS4 and Xbox One S/X are currently. Netflix automatically activates HDR and is active no matter if the content is SDR or HDR. This will affect brightness and picture on your display.

Oh, and this could potentially affect the life of your display as it will be constantly be using max brightness.
 

ThatCrazyGuy

Member
Nov 27, 2017
9,859
So if HDR is on all the time, even for SDR content, will that put more wear on the screen, as people are saying, the screen will always be at max brightness?
 

SirDante

Alt-Account
Banned
Sep 20, 2020
972
My one main concern is HDR is outputting at a TVs max backlight, wouldn't this constant HDR put a strain/longevity of your tv at risk? Always being highest contrast/brightness at maximum nits? I'm really not liking this approach...
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,346
If this is like what the Apple TV does, it sucks. If it's a different implementation then I'll need to see it first, but on the Apple TV it's apparent from the first moment there's something wrong with the UI in fake hdr
 

dallow_bg

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,629
texas
People think the colors while good, won't be 100% perfect on a perfectly calibrated screen. There is also a ton of nonsense concerns.
Which are nonsense?
I paid a lot of money for a high end TV and to have it calibrated for both SDR and HDR dynamic ranges individually.

I know for most, this won't matter since few care about picture settings, but it definitely does for me.
 

ss_lemonade

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,658
People think the colors while good, won't be 100% perfect on a perfectly calibrated screen. There is also a ton of nonsense concerns.
Wouldn't SDR games look like the right side in that hdtvtest video Pargon shared a few pages back? That's how I remember Windows 10 games that don't run in exclusive fullscreen and don't have HDR look like when you have the Windows 10 HDR option enabled.

 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,014
This confused me. Is SDR not just a subset of HDR? Ie if set up correctly it will still be 100% correct? It will be capped at 100 nits as it is mastered, but still correct. No? I need someone to explain this too me. I get that people over brighten their sdr and hdr usually blocks that.
SDR uses Gamma-encoded values, while HDR uses PQ EOTF instead.
03.01pqeotf1mk1r.png

PQ allocates more bits to the darker parts of the image, where they are needed the most.
SDR also uses relative brightness values; e.g. 80% brightness, while HDR uses absolute values; e.g. 80 nits.
80% brightness is 80 nits if the display is set to the proper value of 100 nits* but the user may choose to set their display to 700 nits instead - which would raise "80% brightness" to 560 nits.
But in HDR, a value of 80 nits is 80 nits if the display is accurate, whether its maximum brightness is set to 100 nits or 10,000 nits brightness.

*This is not technically correct since we're talking about gamma-encoded values, but just go with it. The technically correct explanation is far more complicated.

PQ is a fixed transfer function in HDR, while gamma is expected to be 2.4 for accurate reproduction.
But most displays have a gamma adjustment option, often letting you set it as low at 1.8 - which results in much brighter shadow details, and that can be useful in a bright room.


SDR uses the BT.709 color space, while HDR uses the Display-P3 or BT.2020 color space, both of which are much wider gamut.
1632_1ubj66.jpg


If you simply assign the BT.709 color values to BT.2020 without correction, this results in an oversaturated image.
Look at where BT.709 red is (upper right corner of the triangle) compared to the BT.2020 red.
You need to convert the values so that "100% red" in BT.709 appears the same color in BT.2020; perhaps "80% red" instead.
But if the system is doing that conversion, it prevents the user from choosing the oversaturated colors, if that's what they prefer.

And while it's possible to do this accurately by converting SDR to a 100 nit HDR image with the new EOTF and remapping the colors, the end result relies on the display itself being perfectly-calibrated for HDR.
No display is currently capable of 100% color accuracy in HDR - so each has its own compromises; i.e. inaccuracies, to make HDR look good.
But most displays are now capable of extremely good color accuracy in SDR.
The inaccuracies of HDR reproduction don't show themselves that much when watching actual HDR content, because the errors there are relatively minor. But when you are trying to display an accurate SDR picture inside of an HDR container, you are compounding inaccuracies which can make it look noticeably worse than sending the display a native SDR signal.

On top of that, many people do not want an accurate SDR image, and an HDR signal locks them out of those processing options.
 

Deleted member 46804

User requested account closure
Banned
Aug 17, 2018
4,129
Wouldn't SDR games look like the right side in that hdtvtest video Pargon shared a few pages back? That's how I remember Windows 10 games that don't run in exclusive fullscreen and don't have HDR look like when you have the Windows 10 HDR option enabled.


This is exactly the worry/problem. Just give the user the option and be done with it.
 

JimmyJacking

Member
Oct 28, 2017
414
I recall Reddit back when Netflix dose this on the Xbox - Forces HDR even for SDR content screaming "Bug" and how bad it was. The whites on your menus burning your eyes. Now sounds like Sony has applied it system wide... by choice no less. Baffling.
 

chronomac

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,235
Mobile, AL
On top of that, many people do not want an accurate SDR image, and an HDR signal locks them out of those processing options.
This is a fantastic post that should be threadmarked.

One of the biggest differences between SDR and HDR is how the latter uses absolute points to define brightness instead of a percentage, like the former. It's easier to change a calibrated SDR standard without spoiling the image. And you explained that more eloquently than I could have.
 

tomsawing

Member
Jul 27, 2020
234
This isn't something that you need an expert to chime in on. This will result in an inaccurate image due to the fact that your TV will be using its HDR settings to display what should be an SDR image. Whether or not it looks bad is going to be subjective, but there is absolutely no denying that the image will no longer be accurate.
I'm not saying to wait for experts. I'm saying the experts have already weighed in. John & Richard from DF both agreed it was good. So if you, who have not seen it, think you know better than they do... I'm just saying, wait until an actual problem exists before inventing ones. There's no reason to expect that this will be bad when everyone with first-hand experience has said no, it's actually good.
 

ShapeGSX

Member
Nov 13, 2017
5,224
I'm not saying to wait for experts. I'm saying the experts have already weighed in. John & Richard from DF both agreed it was good. So if you, who have not seen it, think you know better than they do... I'm just saying, wait until an actual problem exists before inventing ones. There's no reason to expect that this will be bad when everyone with first-hand experience has said no, it's actually good.

Not that I don't think DF is awesome, but John and Richard weren't measuring video levels. Experts have not weighed in until they do measure it.
 
OP
OP
Psychotron

Psychotron

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,683
I'm not saying to wait for experts. I'm saying the experts have already weighed in. John & Richard from DF both agreed it was good. So if you, who have not seen it, think you know better than they do... I'm just saying, wait until an actual problem exists before inventing ones. There's no reason to expect that this will be bad when everyone with first-hand experience has said no, it's actually good.

But regardless of how anyone thinks it looks, it will still be wrong. I don't want my tv in HDR mode for SDR content. My settings are completely different, as they should be given SDR is calibrated on my set. I depend on DF for a lot but not this. I'd like to see Vincent from HGTV go over it.
 

ThatCrazyGuy

Member
Nov 27, 2017
9,859
SDR uses Gamma-encoded values, while HDR uses PQ EOTF instead.
03.01pqeotf1mk1r.png

PQ allocates more bits to the darker parts of the image, where they are needed the most.
SDR also uses relative brightness values; e.g. 80% brightness, while HDR uses absolute values; e.g. 80 nits.
80% brightness is 80 nits if the display is set to the proper value of 100 nits* but the user may choose to set their display to 700 nits instead - which would raise "80% brightness" to 560 nits.
But in HDR, a value of 80 nits is 80 nits if the display is accurate, whether its maximum brightness is set to 100 nits or 10,000 nits brightness.

*This is not technically correct since we're talking about gamma-encoded values, but just go with it. The technically correct explanation is far more complicated.

PQ is a fixed transfer function in HDR, while gamma is expected to be 2.4 for accurate reproduction.
But most displays have a gamma adjustment option, often letting you set it as low at 1.8 - which results in much brighter shadow details, and that can be useful in a bright room.


SDR uses the BT.709 color space, while HDR uses the Display-P3 or BT.2020 color space, both of which are much wider gamut.
1632_1ubj66.jpg


If you simply assign the BT.709 color values to BT.2020 without correction, this results in an oversaturated image.
Look at where BT.709 red is (upper right corner of the triangle) compared to the BT.2020 red.
You need to convert the values so that "100% red" in BT.709 appears the same color in BT.2020; perhaps "80% red" instead.
But if the system is doing that conversion, it prevents the user from choosing the oversaturated colors, if that's what they prefer.

And while it's possible to do this accurately by converting SDR to a 100 nit HDR image with the new EOTF and remapping the colors, the end result relies on the display itself being perfectly-calibrated for HDR.
No display is currently capable of 100% color accuracy in HDR - so each has its own compromises; i.e. inaccuracies, to make HDR look good.
But most displays are now capable of extremely good color accuracy in SDR.
The inaccuracies of HDR reproduction don't show themselves that much when watching actual HDR content, because the errors there are relatively minor. But when you are trying to display an accurate SDR picture inside of an HDR container, you are compounding inaccuracies which can make it look noticeably worse than sending the display a native SDR signal.

On top of that, many people do not want an accurate SDR image, and an HDR signal locks them out of those processing options.


Thx for this explanation.
 

shancake

Managing Editor ‑ Press Start
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
485
I've fixed the Xbox Series X on the Q90T. Had to turn off VR. PS5 is still all over the place. Either the screen goes blue/red, HDR disables or its just completely washed out.
 

Hasney

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,621
I heard on a PS5 stream yesterday that the console took an update in the last couple of days. Guessing the option wasn't added in?
 
Jun 13, 2019
72
Now that people are getting their PS5s: do you think the forced HDR with tone mapping is okay? Still got a week to wait for mine to arrive...
 

Adamska

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,042
Now that general audiences are getting their consoles, can anyone confirm if it looks bad or not?
 

Wingfan19

Layout Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
9,753
Bothell WA
I hate the forced HDR on my C7. It makes all my SDR content darker and the colors don't have their pop. I'm also aware that the C7 game mode HDR is not as bright as the other HDR modes for some dumb reason that LG refused to fix in any firmware.
 

Kyle Cross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,427
Tried it out, and everything looks as it should on my CX. But I'm still concerned if this will increase burn-in due to running at OLED Light 100 even if the game itself isn't hitting peak brightness.
 

Kyle Cross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,427
I take back my previous post. I was simply looking at color accuracy which looks as it should. But games are indeed much much brighter. It looks just like I cranked the backlight way up in SDR. People who keep their displays like that it'll look normal for them, but I keep my backlight around 150 nits to better match SDR calibration standards. I'm definitely worried about playing SDR games on my OLED this bright.
 

Sparks

Senior Games Artist
Verified
Dec 10, 2018
2,879
Los Angeles
I hate the forced HDR on my C7. It makes all my SDR content darker and the colors don't have their pop. I'm also aware that the C7 game mode HDR is not as bright as the other HDR modes for some dumb reason that LG refused to fix in any firmware.
Yes this!

I absolutely hate this aspect of PS5. I'm now disabling HDR in settings when not playing HDR content... my HDR settings do NOT work well with SDR content: YouTube, Netflix, ect. It's so dark and the blacks feel crushed a bit. The colors are washed out...

I wonder if this is patchable?
 

JohnnyToonami

Member
Dec 16, 2018
5,471
Earth
Yes this!

I absolutely hate this aspect of PS5. I'm now disabling HDR in settings when not playing HDR content... my HDR settings do NOT work well with SDR content: YouTube, Netflix, ect. It's so dark and the blacks feel crushed a bit. The colors are washed out...

I wonder if this is patchable?
I really hope so, it's really not that great.
 

Wingfan19

Layout Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
9,753
Bothell WA
Yes this!

I absolutely hate this aspect of PS5. I'm now disabling HDR in settings when not playing HDR content... my HDR settings do NOT work well with SDR content: YouTube, Netflix, ect. It's so dark and the blacks feel crushed a bit. The colors are washed out...

I wonder if this is patchable?
I would think so. I can't believe their options are "Automatic" or "Off". They could add an option 'Always On' or 'Force HDR', which Automatic is doing now and then fix 'Automatic' to actually mean automatic like the PS4 did.
 

Deleted member 5876

Big Seller
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,559
Is there a way to turn this feature ON in AppleTv? Because I love this feature of the PS5 from the sounds of it.
Why?

Because when AppleTv switches modes it causes a lot of flickering when it does it, and sometimes the handshake fucks up and I'm stuck with a black screen. So avoiding that entirely is what I'd rather do.
 

Plidex

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,153
My one main concern is HDR is outputting at a TVs max backlight, wouldn't this constant HDR put a strain/longevity of your tv at risk? Always being highest contrast/brightness at maximum nits? I'm really not liking this approach...

I doubt it's at maximum nits, it's just brighter than normal.
 

Goldenhen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
236
Sydney
Why can't they just do exactly what PS4 Pro handle with HDR? SDR by default and auto switch to HDR whenever games or app support it.
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,014
Is there a way to turn this feature ON in AppleTv? Because I love this feature of the PS5 from the sounds of it.
Why?

Because when AppleTv switches modes it causes a lot of flickering when it does it, and sometimes the handshake fucks up and I'm stuck with a black screen. So avoiding that entirely is what I'd rather do.
Go to Settings > Video and Audio > Match Content, then choose from the following:
  • Match Dynamic Range: Turn on to have Apple TV 4K match its output to the original dynamic range of content that you're watching.
  • Match Frame Rate: Turn on to have Apple TV 4K or Apple TV HD match its refresh rate to the original frame rate of content. This applies to content that's mastered at different frame rates, for example 24fps film-based content or other international content.
You want to disable the "match dynamic range" option.
 

Rats

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,112
After using the console I can't say I'm a fan of this. It's not the end of the world but the old method was unequivocally better. I really hope they give us the option to change it.
 

Schlomo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,133
Is there a way to turn this feature ON in AppleTv? Because I love this feature of the PS5 from the sounds of it.
Why?

Because when AppleTv switches modes it causes a lot of flickering when it does it, and sometimes the handshake fucks up and I'm stuck with a black screen. So avoiding that entirely is what I'd rather do.

Just turn off "Match format" in display options, and you'll have your horribly inaccurate seemless experience. ;)
 

Matic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
172
Tried it out, and everything looks as it should on my CX. But I'm still concerned if this will increase burn-in due to running at OLED Light 100 even if the game itself isn't hitting peak brightness.

From interview with RTings...

"From the burn-in investigation we've done so far, we expect that this panel degradation results from the cumulative brightness over time of each pixel (eg. a higher pixel brightness over a longer time is the worst-case for degradation). In SDR there is a direct relationship between the OLED Light setting and pixel brightness, so increasing the setting does result in more degradation over time (but for most people buying an OLED this may not be a problem - if you're buying it for the picture quality, then you most likely want the most optimal settings for an image you prefer to watch). In HDR though, it is a slightly different story as there isn't the same relationship. An OLED light setting of 100 isn't the maximum overall brightness but instead results in the 'reference' image being recreated (as the content was mastered). As a result, the average brightness of the screen can still be quite low and it can still actual appear quite dark to many people, while highlights can get bright. Here's a great article that explains more how light levels work in HDR:"

https://www.lightspace.lightillusion.com/uhdtv.html
 

Slash

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Sep 12, 2018
9,859
This setting is making SDR games way too dark on my PS5. Is there really no way to disable it while keeping HDR on for games that support it?
 

Chessguy1

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,803
fall guys is my daily game and the colors were a bit off but i've slowly gotten used to it, luckily color accuracy isnt a HUGE deal in gaming so i won't bother manually turning hdr off and on, but if there was an auto detect option i would def use it. i won't use the video apps so i'm ok there.
 

Slash

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Sep 12, 2018
9,859
fall guys is my daily game and the colors were a bit off but i've slowly gotten used to it, luckily color accuracy isnt a HUGE deal in gaming so i won't bother manually turning hdr off and on, but if there was an auto detect option i would def use it. i won't use the video apps so i'm ok there.

I tried Fall Guys and compared it to my PS4 Pro and it's pretty different. Really hope they add an auto detect option.
 

Vonocourt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,624
I wonder if this is patchable?
Don't see why not, PS5 outputs in SDR just fine with the mode off.
From another thread
it actually turns off HDR when you play a blu-ray, so thats a plus.
no dolby vision support, but besides that worked well on the few blu-rays and 4k's i tested.

it can get pretty tricky getting bitstream to work, this video covers it


Blu-ray player automatically switches, though that could be app specific feature.

So yeah, I don't see why they can't patch it, but I would guess it make take some time to implement and test it.
This setting is making SDR games way too dark on my PS5. Is there really no way to disable it while keeping HDR on for games that support it?
No.
 

Mullet2000

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,906
Toronto
SDR games looks awful with the HDR container on my TV. Very dark and muted colours. Was just trying it out with Spelunky 2 and there's no comparison, HDR manually turned off looks so much better.
 

FarronFox

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,429
Melbourne, Australia
SDR games looks awful with the HDR container on my TV. Very dark and muted colours. Was just trying it out with Spelunky 2 and there's no comparison, HDR manually turned off looks so much better.

Yeah totally agree. I tried playing Fortnite with the forced HDR and its bad. Series X version is much better as that doesn't force it.

Sony really needs to implement a setting where you can allow hdr for only HDR content and not put it on everything. Until then I have to keep going into settings to disable it which is just silly.