PS5 Displays SDR Content in HDR Container

[Chili]

It's pretty exhausting the amount of streaming devices and media boxes that get this wrong. I've not tried the Apple TV 4K but it is a total pain on the Fire TV 4K stick even though that has a frame rate and HDR matching mode. It doesn't really work that well for most apps, especially with framerate matching. I basically have to check the quality of the content first and then change the display settings each time to get the best output rather than the device trying to upscale/auto-HDR/mismatch frames. I wasn't expecting the PS5 to be the ultimate media solution but this is not a good start. I might have to get the Apple TV box in the end.

 

[Hasney]

They did say in the faq after the ui reveal that you could disable hdr for the ui & non hdr content.

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Well hopefully that's coming in hot on a day 1 patch, because it doesn't seem like anyone with the console right now has found that option. If that is the case, at least they're aware!

 

[KennyLinder]

Just turn off HDR in the PS5 settings when needed. The TV profiles are by input and by SDR/HDR, so you get the settings different for both and you won't affect the other inputs on your TV.

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Thank you!

 

[nib95]

How does this work exactly? Does their implementation of the container try to keep any sort of accurate tone mapping despite transitioning to HDR? I feel like I can't really judge this without seeing the end results, especially if the SDR to HDR is done pretty well.

We've had days of people testing the UI and BC games, and dozens of people and outlets have had near enough nothing but positive things to say about it all, so presumably the implementation is done well.

Personally, I think they should provide an auto on off option for people who don't want it, but I can see why they've done this (similar to certain other media sticks), as it keeps uniformity with UI. Eg ensuring all UI elements that pop up on screen during gameplay with the PS5, are consistently HDR, and that you don't get those annoying black screen pauses/switches.

 

[Sprat]

Well hopefully that's coming in hot on a day 1 patch, because it doesn't seem like anyone with the console right now has found that option. If that is the case, at least they're aware!

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You would hope so. I don't even want the ui in hdr as I usually only play after midnight on weekends

 

[UltraInstinct]

I feel like I can't really judge this without seeing the end results, especially if the SDR to HDR is done pretty well.

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I have a feeling it'll look similar to the current PS4 setup where when you boot up an HDR enabled game and then press the Home button to return back to the PS home screen, the HDR is still in effect. From here you can visit the PS store, look at any of your game captures etc. This might give you an idea.

 

[Diogo Arez]

Considering I won't use HDR until I upgrade my TV next year this doesn't bother me but I honestly think it's a good idea, HDR turning the screen black to transition back and forth is a bit annoying

 

[EvilBoris]

I have a feeling it'll look similar to the current PS4 setup where when you boot up an HDR enabled game and then press the Home button to return back to the PS home screen, the HDR is still in effect. From here you can visit the PS store, look at any of your game captures etc. This might give you an idea.

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It will be better than that- it was massively oversaturated

 

[Betta Lines]

If all the Standard Dynamic Range information fits inside the wider High Dynamic Range, why doesn't this work properly? Surely SDR content could look correct in HDR with the right calibration?

 

[Winstano]

It's mostly fine. The only thing I've found that's a bit annoying is some colour banding in certain game's skyboxes. It looks like it's there without HDR, but the HDR wrapper kind of oversates it. Aside from that, I kinda like the effect

 

[_Gandour_]

Just so that i understand, on ps5 all my SDR games will be forced show at hdr?

 

[Blackthorn]

It's pretty exhausting the amount of streaming devices and media boxes that get this wrong. I've not tried the Apple TV 4K but it is a total pain on the Fire TV 4K stick even though that has a frame rate and HDR matching mode. It doesn't really work that well for most apps, especially with framerate matching. I basically have to check the quality of the content first and then change the display settings each time to get the best output rather than the device trying to upscale/auto-HDR/mismatch frames. I wasn't expecting the PS5 to be the ultimate media solution but this is not a good start. I might have to get the Apple TV box in the end.

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Apple TV was updated some time ago with a setting to match the dynamic range of the content played, so you get the momentary black screens as it switches output, which I hope the PS5 can provide as an option.

Though if the SDR is displayed *mostly* well within the wrapper I may stick to it. I'm a little less fussy when it comes to games vs media.

 

[catboy]

I too hate that the Apple TV 4k defaulted to that same deal and I immediately turned that off. SDR needs to stay SDR and HDR needs to stay HDR. It's bad enough when streaming services like Disney+ shove a bunch of SDR content into HDR wrappers, which makes a lot of that content look outright worse.

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you can fix it on apple tv, set it to SDR in settings and then just make sure "match range" and "match framerate" are enabled. then only HDR stuff will trigger it to change to HDR mode.

 

[GlowingBovine]

The issue for me isn't any SDR content looking incorrect, it's that I keep my tv at a lower brightness most of the time to avoid burn in from games, but the hdr mode is full brightness.

I would take the second of a black screen to switch modes properly over having to go through my tvs settings and then down the brightness or turn it back up when needed.

 

[Ferrs]

Considering I won't use HDR until I upgrade my TV next year this doesn't bother me but I honestly think it's a good idea, HDR turning the screen black to transition back and forth is a bit annoying

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more accurate image > couple of seconds of a black screen when you turn on a game. IMO.

 

[Yautja_Warrior]

It's weird a lot of companies, not just Sony, do this, instead of just having the machine auto detect HDR and switch as needed.

 

[FriendlyNPC]

Sounds like most journalists who have seen this work are mildly positive about it? Maybe people should wait and see how this turns out before screaming at the top of their lungs.

There will probably be ways to configure this sooner or later as well. Like, I always deactivate tone mapping since I prefer to see stuff the way it was intended to be seen, so I will deactivate this whenever possible as well.

I guess the assumption here is that most if not all next gen games will support HDR, so having everything, OS menu and all be HDR by default is better because no screen mode switching is required. If you consume a lot of SDR content this is suboptimal of course.

 

[AndyD]

Do not like

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Same here. My TV also has fully independent settings and this may not work with that. I have the same issue with Netflix.

 

[UltraInstinct]

It's mostly fine. The only thing I've found that's a bit annoying is some colour banding in certain game's skyboxes. It looks like it's there without HDR, but the HDR wrapper kind of oversates it. Aside from that, I kinda like the effect

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Thanks for the info! I would imagine though that for games which have natively built in HDR, that will activate as normal and display as it should?

 

[Issen]

Like Windows 10 also. People says it's broken but I think it's working for me most of the same beside when you use custom resolution. If Xbsx auto hdr is anything comparable to the LG hdr effect mode I expect the results are all over the place also.

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Yeah, works fantastic on Windows 10 for me as well. Glad PS5 is taking this approach.

Windows 10 also allows you to calibrate how SDR content will look while running in HDR mode so you can get good accuracy as well.

 

[Kiro]

So I guess I'm going to have to turn HDR off all the time to prevent burn in. Thus should be an option at the very least. Come on Sony.

Are the ps5 games releasing at launch HDR? Is there a list for this for PS4 games?

 

[nib95]

I have a feeling it'll look similar to the current PS4 setup where when you boot up an HDR enabled game and then press the Home button to return back to the PS home screen, the HDR is still in effect. From here you can visit the PS store, look at any of your game captures etc. This might give you an idea.

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I doubt that, because the PS4 version made everything highly oversaturated to the point where it was super obvious you were still in HDR, whereas not a single journalist or influencer has complained about such a thing playing BC games on PS5, so presumably the implementation is more accurate, enough that people didn't even notice.

 

[JudgmentJay]

Sounds like most people who have used it are mildly positive about it? Maybe people should wait and see how this turns out before screaming at the top of their lungs.

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? There's nothing to be positive about. Literally the only good thing about this is that your TV doesn't have to switch back and forth between the different modes. In exchange you have an objectively inaccurate image in SDR games. That's a bad trade-off no matter how you look at it. If someone is positive about this "feature" it's because they don't understand what is actually going on.

 

[FriendlyNPC]

? There's nothing to be positive about. Literally the only good thing about this is that your TV doesn't have to switch back and forth between the different modes. In exchange you have an objectively inaccurate image in SDR games. That's a bad trade-off no matter how you look at it. If someone is positive about this "feature" it's because they don't understand what is actually going on.

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You make the assumption that this somehow looks noticeably worse. If it doesn't or people don't see much of a difference, this is indeed better in the sense of starting games feeling smoother without that weird SDR -> HDR transition.

People who had hands on with this all say that this is pretty subtle.

 

[Edge]

Sony, basically without understanding anything:

"I thought you guys wanted auto HDR????"

 

[nib95]

You make the assumption that this somehow looks noticeably worse. If it doesn't or people don't see much of a difference, this is indeed better.

People who had hands on with this all say that this is pretty subtle.

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Exactly. There's been some fairly positive things said about Xbox's "auto-HDR", well, maybe this is Sony's equivalent, even if implemented different. Until we get a full on test of it, we can't know.

 

[Kiro]

You make the assumption that this somehow looks noticeably worse. If it doesn't or people don't see much of a difference, this is indeed better in the sense that starting games feels smoother without that weird SDR -> HDR transition.

People who had hands on with this all say that this is pretty subtle.

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Brightness alone is additional wear and tear on the tv that isn't necessary

 

[Rente]

So I guess I'm going to have to turn HDR off all the time to prevent burn in. Thus should be an option at the very least. Come on Sony.

Are the ps5 games releasing at launch HDR? Is there a list for this for PS4 games?

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There is a high probability that the implementation will not lead to more burn-in. The menu will not use the maximum brightness and SDR titles remain in the SDR range (including color range and maximum brightness).
The whole thing is such a non-issue if Sony implements it properly (which I assume). From my point of view, it only has advantages.

 

[Lowrys]

Another bizarre decision from Sony. Give us an option, and give us one to force 60hz while you're at it.

 

[Kiro]

There is a high probability that the implementation will not lead to more burn-in. The menu will not use the maximum brightness and SDR titles remain in the SDR range (including color range and maximum brightness).
The whole thing is such a non-issue if Sony implements it properly (which I assume). From my point of view, it only has advantages.

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Ah okay. I'm new to OLED and HDR so I don't understand much in this thread. I just know brightness high isn't great for OLED over long term.

 

[FriendlyNPC]

Another bizarre decision from Sony. Give us an option, and give us one to force 60hz while you're at it.

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This I can get behind 100%. Having the option to configure this kind of stuff however you like is always best.

 

[JudgmentJay]

You make the assumption that this somehow looks noticeably worse. If it doesn't or people don't see much of a difference, this is indeed better in the sense of starting games feeling smoother without that weird SDR -> HDR transition.

People who had hands on with this all say that this is pretty subtle.

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It's not an assumption. TV HDR modes are less accurate out of the box and are harder/impossible to calibrate to perfection. HDR modes also crank brightness, contrast, and backlight so if you play an SDR games in a dark room it's going to be far too bright.

 

[Ponchito]

For those that mention the Apple TV, this can be disabled and be a a non-issue. Then it goes to HDR or Dolby Vision) when Match Range option is on.

 

[MorshuTheTrader]

Yeah I'll be disabling this and only turning on HDR for games that support it.

 

[Blackthorn]

Worth noting for people with OLEDs worried about burn in that this will only increase risk of burn in if the OS uses max brightness on its HUD elements and tonemaps SDR content all the way up to max brightness, which it almost certainly won't. We'll know for sure once the champ EvilBoris gets his hands on it!

Edit: Beaten by Rente above.

 

[Daxa]

I feel like this follows the 1440p thing where it seems like Sony mostly designs PS5 with TVs in mind with little to no regard for monitors.

But some of us still have TVs without HDR. :/

Reminds me of HDR on the PS4 where people had to basically choose between HDR and Game Mode on their TVs supporting HDR at the time, and if they lowered the brightness in any way, HDR went away.

 

[Deleted member 1238]

Exactly. There's been some fairly positive things said about Xbox's "auto-HDR", well, maybe this is Sony's equivalent, even if implemented different. Until we get a full on test of it, we can't know.

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Auto HDR is totally different because that system tries to turn SDR content into HDR content whereas what Sony is doing just plays SDR content on your TV's HDR settings which will look wrong. Even auto HDR isn't perfect as some outlets have mentioned, but you can at least turn it off (at least that's what's been reported). You can't tell your PS5 to automatically detect an SDR signal and switch between the two modes. You would have to manually know which game supports HDR and which doesn't and switch the settings every time you change games.

as someone who cares about these sorts of things this is massively annoying.

 

[nib95]

So I guess I'm going to have to turn HDR off all the time to prevent burn in. Thus should be an option at the very least. Come on Sony.

Are the ps5 games releasing at launch HDR? Is there a list for this for PS4 games?

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You'd presumably be doing that anyway, because the overwhelming majority of games coming out next-gen will be HDR (eg potentially much brighter in areas). Unless you intended to buy your next-gen console only to play SDR current-gen games.

Auto HDR is totally different because that system tries to turn SDR content into HDR content whereas what Sony is doing just plays SDR content on your TV's HDR settings which will look wrong. Even auto HDR isn't perfect as some outlets have mentioned, but you can at least turn it off (at least that's what's been reported). You can't tell your PS5 to automatically detect an SDR signal and switch between the two modes. You would have to manually know which game supports HDR and which doesn't and switch the settings every time you change games.

as someone who cares about these sorts of things this is massively annoying.

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How are you assuming that exactly? You don't know how the PS5 is doing it. For all we know Sony may have worked on their own tone mapping algorithms to make the SDR to HDR transition more accurate than it may have ordinarily been.

 

[Jeffram]

It's not an assumption. TV HDR modes are less accurate out of the box and are harder/impossible to calibrate to perfection. HDR modes also crank brightness, contrast, and backlight so if you play an SDR games in a dark room it's going to be far too bright.

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Digital foundry played a bunch of SDR games in their backwards compatibility testing and didn't mention any issues there. As long as the ps5 sends over the right instructions for brightness there shouldn't be a brightness issue

 

[Fitts]

Digital foundry played a bunch of SDR games in their backwards compatibility testing and didn't mention any issues there. As long as the ps5 sends over the right instructions for brightness there shouldn't be a brightness issue

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Digital Foundry is fine for counting pixels and frames. PQ accuracy isn't their thing.

Let's hope Vincent Teoh gets to do some testing, but regardless we already know that forcing SDR into an HDR wrapper is a net negative.

This is inarguably a dumb move on Sony's part and there's no defense for them not making it optional.

 

[JudgmentJay]

Digital foundry played a bunch of SDR games in their backwards compatibility testing and didn't mention any issues there. As long as the ps5 sends over the right instructions for brightness there shouldn't be a brightness issue

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No offense but you don't understand what you're talking about. The PS5 is going to send an HDR signal which will put your TV in HDR mode. HDR mode on your TV is less accurate and overly bright when viewing SDR content. That is an objective fact.

 

[Psychotron]

Digital foundry played a bunch of SDR games in their backwards compatibility testing and didn't mention any issues there. As long as the ps5 sends over the right instructions for brightness there shouldn't be a brightness issue

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The PS5 won't change the brightness setting of your tv, so that's not true. I'm thinking it was less obvious for DF because John plays on an OLED, which can't get nearly as bright as an LCD. When my tv switches from SDR to HDR my brightness shoots through the roof regardless of what's being fed, because in HDR mode my brightness is at 100, whereas in SDR it's at 15.

 

[Ferrs]

Sounds like most journalists who have seen this work are mildly positive about it? Maybe people should wait and see how this turns out before screaming at the top of their lungs.

There will probably be ways to configure this sooner or later as well. Like, I always deactivate tone mapping since I prefer to see stuff the way it was intended to be seen, so I will deactivate this whenever possible as well.

I guess the assumption here is that most if not all next gen games will support HDR, so having everything, OS menu and all be HDR by default is better because no screen mode switching is required. If you consume a lot of SDR content this is suboptimal of course.

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People are positive because people are used to overbrightened screens. If you go check how people have their TVs configuref 9/10 will probably have their TVs blasting SDR content way highter than the 100 nits that content is mastered on.

 

[PLASTICA-MAN]

What does this mean? Can anyone please explain to me in more simplified way? Does this mean teh PS5 converts SDR content into HDR content like XSX?

 

[Ravelle]

My 4K blu ray player does the same thing, it always washes out the Netflix interface and such.

 

[nib95]

The PS5 won't change the brightness setting of your tv, so that's not true. I'm thinking it was less obvious for DF because John plays on an OLED, which can't get nearly as bright as an LCD. When my tv switches from SDR to HDR my brightness shoots through the roof regardless of what's being fed, because in HDR mode my brightness is at 100, whereas in SDR it's at 15.

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That's the same with an OLED though. The brightness difference is still patently obvious even if they don't get as bright as LCD's, especially when you still have pure black and infinite contrast, thus the difference between pure black and the brightest white is extenuated. That's why OLED TV's usually still end up winning best HDR in these professional tests against top LCD's, even if they don't get as bright.

 

[Psychotron]

What does this mean? Can anyone please explain to me in more simplified way? Does this mean teh PS5 converts SDR content into HDR content like XSX?

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No, this means the PS5 tells your TVs to always use whatever settings you use when you view HDR content. The problem is that HDR settings for tv's aren't calibrated for SDR content so things will not be accurate. To take advantage of bright highlights and expanded color range, brightness and contrast are often maxed out in HDR mode, which will look bad on SDR content that simply isn't meant to be that bright.

 

[Deleted member 1238]

How are you assuming that exactly? You don't know how the PS5 is doing it. For all we know Sony may have worked on their own tone mapping algorithms to make the SDR to HDR transition more accurate than it may have ordinarily been.

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you don't think Sony would have advertised that? If Sony has their own top secret auto hdr feature then cool I guess, but come on now.

 

[PLASTICA-MAN]

No, this means the PS5 tells your TVs to always use whatever settings you use when you view HDR content. The problem is that HDR settings for tv's aren't calibrated for SDR content so things will not be accurate. To take advantage of bright highlights and expanded color range, brightness and contrast are often maxed out in HDR mode, which will look bad on SDR content that simply isn't meant to be that bright.

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Ah I see. So the wisest solution is to disable this feature on PS5 when you play SDR content right? there is a way to disable this feature right? Please don't tell me there is not!

 

[Psychotron]

That's the same with an OLED though. The brightness difference is still patently obvious even if they don't get as bright as LCD's, especially when you still have pure black and infinite contrast, thus the difference between pure black and the brightest white is extenuated. That's why OLED TV's usually still end up winning best HDR in these professional tests against top LCD's, even if they don't get as bright.

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Yes, the ratio high because the blacks get so deep, but it doesn't change the fact it can't get as bright. Not even close. If you max the brightness on some quality LCD's your eyes would burn off. The switch to HDR will be infinitely more noticeable on an LCD.