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How hyped are you?

  • A little hyped

    Votes: 98 15.7%
  • A lot of hyped

    Votes: 50 8.0%
  • WALNUUUUUTSSSSS

    Votes: 222 35.5%
  • Hyped enough to eat this whole bag of walnuts

    Votes: 63 10.1%
  • Hyped enough to bite this moose

    Votes: 37 5.9%
  • Hyped enough to scramble a dozen eggs

    Votes: 39 6.2%
  • Hyped enough to be even more hyped, like, cyclical or something

    Votes: 116 18.6%

  • Total voters
    625
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Elandyll

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,813
On the contrary when I sold Apple products (admittedly in iPod and early iPad era) it was always the middle that sold the most and it was forecast to do so based on the literature Apple gave us too. Very few wanted to get the entry model ("too cold"), the majority aspired for the top end but was beyond their budget ("too hot") and settled for the one in the middle ("just right").
Aye.
In that position Sony would likely benefit the most at the combo power/price, $399 being imo the right spot for mass market adoption on day 1.

And during promos like BF, they would drop to $299 and hit the sweet spot, while the low end Xbx would be cornered down to $199 and be a potentially big loss leader, as the high end X series still being high at $399.
It's also more costly (in terms of production) to entertain multiple skus instead of one because you don't get the same discounts on volume.

In terms of pricing, they probably need to avoid a fumble at being same price as X series though, particularly if they are seen as a bit underpowered (in case MS decides to take a bath with a $399 12TF product).
 

OzPrime

Member
Oct 29, 2017
161
How are they going to achieve that, when the games retailers are on the rocks already.
Oh hi; would you like to participate in this scheme that removes the stock you buy and sell from the marketplace?
Oh yes, you would? Sign in blood on the dotted line

I can see a situation where you would send the discs to MS. They would verify the discs are still good, then convert the licenses to digital ones at their end. Optimistic, I agree, but it would help get more people into their digital ecosystem if they're going to keep selling digital-only hardware. The $299 price point becomes less appealing if you have to spend extra money repurchasing games.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
maybe mobile dev ? civ 6 125-256px/m, ryse 512px/m, battlefield1 1024px/m

Texel density work with resolution here it means 1 texel per pixel. At 4k you can't have better textures. But this is logic we talk about storage been able to load in memory 40 times faster or more the assets compared to PS4 and Xbox One.

And the funny thing it comes from an indie.

EDIT:
okR37fP.png
 

Smashed_Hulk

Member
Jun 16, 2018
401
Graphics can always be downgraded, hitting fps mark is the real battle. As long as the cpu is equal, it will be fine.
I'd figure it would take the PC like approach. Where Series X would be the baseline "Ultra" if you call it something, and Series S would be "High". Resolution drop, various LOD drops (shadows, reflections, etc).

Having the same CPU, RAM, SSD helps a lot though. Just hope it could do a solid 1080p and hit the desired FPS without too much of a downgrade in image quality. The 4 TF just worries on their ability to do that and keep it at full 1080p. I'm not buying that it can handle 1440p without major reductions in quality tho. 1080, sure.
 
Oct 27, 2017
20,760
PS4 was cheaper AND more powerful than Xbox and wasn't competing with the Wii U at all

the Xbox one s did outsell the PS4 in multiple holiday seasons when it was heavily discounted to $200
You can say Wii U didn't count, and yes it did bad, but the idea of a console being priced in the middle as some kinda omen for its success is bunk. It literally means nothing if the products priced below and above it aren't marketed well
 

Tappin Brews

#TeamThierry
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,873
I don't know what the point is you are trying to make? You think Sony will not dominate when they sell a 499,95 system? Personally i think they are in a better position to sell at that price Worldwide..

i thought it was pretty clear, i think you meant to quote my previous post regarding 399 or 499 ps5 vs 299/499 xbox /s/x?
 

Fabtacular

Member
Jul 11, 2019
4,244
My DOA comment is probably too dramatic and I'm usually wrong about these things but used games/trading games/gifting games through family is a big deal for price sensitive consumers. So yes, I think a $300 discless model would do ok but I do think it would miss out on a substantial part of the market.

i just really hope LH doesn't come out. I'd rather they launch XSX for $500 and work it down in price over time like they've always done, sadly that won't happen since it's got "series" in the name

I feel like you're way over-selling the price-sensitivity angle on physical disks.

First off, the used-games economy is having a tremendous monkey wrench thrown into it by the pending demise of GameStop. Since the price of used games generally isn't very far off digital on the "wait six months" plan, the real value in the used games economy is being able to re-sell your game. But without physical locations to dependably and conveniently trade your games, it's increasingly inconvenient to get value for your used games. (Yes, I get it. If you've set up an Ebay store and you've turned your buy-and-flip strategy into part-time hobby, it's not a great inconvenience. But I think that's a very narrow subset of gamers.)

Realistically, we're no longer in era of gaming where people don't have enough to play and have to constantly be looking for new content. Instead, between PS+/GWG/F2P (not to mention subscription services like PS Now and GamePass) and play-forever games like competitive mulitplayer games and Minecraft/Roblox, people generally have more games than they have time to play them. So I think the importance of squeezing extra value out of your (increasingly infrequent) gaming purchases has greatly diminished.

I'm not saying there are no drawbacks to removing the disk drive. But what I am saying, is I don't think that's a deal-breaker for the portion of the gaming market that's going to be looking to save $200 on the price of their next-gen console. Assuming MS has appropriately designed XSS to run 4k XSX games but simply at 1080p resolution, I think we're going to see a lot of review articles around launch that put the three consoles side-by-side to compare the games. And I expect that they will conclude that most people will not be able to readily discern the difference between them (unless sitting very close to the TV or gaming on a very large television), and that the recommendation will be that unless you're a hardcore gamer, or tied to the Sony ecosystem, or you game on a 75-inch television, the easy recommendation is to save the $200 and get the XSS. And if you're a parent buying a console for a kid, or you're a game who mostly just buys COD/Madden/FIFA/NBA2K each year, that's going to be a very compelling argument.

In some ways, a 13-14TF PS5 that costs $500 is a best-case scenario for MS and the XSS. A $400 9.2TF PS4 would have made the XSS value proposition much more complicated.

[That said, the XSS isn't necessarily the sales slam-dunk that I might appear to be characterizing it as. We live in a world where people buy 42-inch 4k televisions where the resolution increase is only noticeable when viewing from two feet away, because more=better. So MS is going to have to be very sensitive about how it frames the "same just at lower resolution" pitch.]
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,827
That is exactly what I think too.
For me XSX and PS5 are both on 7mm (not N7+)
Vega also would have had the benefit of going from N7 to N7P. We know the 5700 series was already on N7P.

I assume this means that you think NAVI 21, 22, 23 are all on 7nm+? But consoles still on N7P?
 

MickZan

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,404
I love how you guys are analyzing everything to bits with non conclusive and rumoured info. I don't think there's any other hobby where that happens.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,356
The way that i see it, there are 2 major ways lockhart can hold back this gen:
1) less memory and bandwidth, games need to be made for hardware with 12 GB GDDR6 rather than 16GB and the memory is also slower.
2) Lockhart effectively forces developers to stick to very high resolutions on the high end console, which inherently limits the graphical complexity of the game, because i dont think developers will let the game drop below 1080p on lockhart, so lockhart will determine our graphical complexity baseline. If we look at it the other way around, then i dont think we will see many games at all targeting below 1800p on the series X. Some would be happy with such a high resolution, but i favor pushing for new technological heights over a simple dry upgrade

That only works as long no Sony dev simply starts lowering their internal resolution to boost the graphics. Sure the lockhart could possibly do the same @1080p as the Series X in native 4k but what if you design a game in 1080P and use the whole TFs to up the graphics up to 11?

Series X could do the same but Lockhart couldn't. I don't think ms would want to see sub 720p on their new shiny console just to compete with sony.
The lower bandwidth and memory is offset by using smaller, less detailed assets. won't be a problem.

Lockhart doesn't force devs to limit graphical complexity on XSX. The 4K—>1080 res drop is just one way a dev could choose to downscale visuals.

If a dev instead chooses to dial graphics up to 11 and use some dynamic res, or advanced upscaling method on a sub-4K XSX version, then the Lockhart version could 1) use dynamic res or andvanced upscaling on a sub1080 internal res 2) dial the graphics way down from 11 so the resolution doesn't take so much of a hit or 3) some combination of the 2.

This is what developers already do when they have multiple hardware targets.

The Lockhart's rumored CPU and Memory solution are beefy enough that the device won't be bottlenecking gameplay systems. Visually, Lockhart games won't be as sharp or as detailed - depending one how devs choose to downscale.
 
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Jaypah

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,866
I don't know what the point is you are trying to make? You think Sony will not dominate when they sell a 499,95 system? Personally i think they are in a better position to sell at that price Worldwide..

It literally says no matter what mistakes Sony could make it would still dominate worldwide. I think Sony is swell too but, like...you gotta relax fam lol
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
17,836
Vega also would have had the benefit of going from N7 to N7P. We know the 5700 series was already on N7P.

I assume this means that you think NAVI 21, 22, 23 are all on 7nm+? But consoles still on N7P?
Zen 2 is also only on 7nm, but consoles will have it on 7nm+? You have this contradiction no matter which way you go.
 

Fabtacular

Member
Jul 11, 2019
4,244
i think sony would be in the best position in the sandwich scenario. assuming a 9tf machine (to get to 399 in the first place!), their games will look as good as the series x games to most consumers (arguably better in some cases because god damn sony have talented teams!) and only under the careful eye of direct comparisons, such as DF, would really differences be spotted. at 399$ i think ps5 would absolutely be seen as good enough where MS's power lead wouldnt matter much AND would pull sales from cash conscious consumers. $399 could be seen as the sweet spot for many

a much harder position to be in would be a 499 ps5 (12-13tf and especially 9tf) competing against a 299 series s. thats a VERY large price difference to over come, especially if series s demonstrates next gen gaming at 1080-1440p as *promised

I agree 100%. For hardcore gamers incremental cost of a console is trivial, and you basically amortize that over the 6-7 years you plan to own the console.

But for anyone less than that, they're just looking to play the next generation version of COD with near-zero loading times and new advanced AI. And when they're staring down a $200 premium to go with PS5 over XSS, that's a tough pill to swallow. $200 is a lot of money for most people.
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
17,836
I have not seen that Zen3 is reserved for 7nm. Also, there are no Zen3 chips out there, but Big Navi is out there and releases soon.
Zen 3 was design complete before RDNA 2 was according to their slides from late last year
But i was specifically referring to the fact that supposedly AMD are moving immediately to zen 3 instead of making zen 2 on 7nm+ according to AMD leaks, so zen 2 would need to be ported to 7nm+ specifically for consoles
 

Deleted member 12635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,198
Germany
Vega also would have had the benefit of going from N7 to N7P. We know the 5700 series was already on N7P.

I assume this means that you think NAVI 21, 22, 23 are all on 7nm+? But consoles still on N7P?
I only spoke consoles. And I am 100% that XSX is 7nm. I assume the same for PS5.

I don't know why you are so certain about 7nm+ for PC after the comments of yesterday.

After reading different articles (thanks for the heads up btw) AMD really wanted to avoid that people think it was on N7+ when talked about 7nm+ in the past. Why avoid that thought if you plan to release on that node anyway?
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,827
Zen 3 was design complete before RDNA 2 was according to their slides from late last year
But i was specifically referring to the fact that supposedly AMD are moving immediately to zen 3 instead of making zen 2 on 7nm+ according to AMD leaks, so zen 2 would need to be ported to 7nm+ specifically for consoles
But we haven't seen it afaik
 

LordBlodgett

Member
Jan 10, 2020
806
My guess (again): 54 CUs (3 SEs with 18 active CUs each) clocked at 1.8 Ghz = 12.44 TFs.

Disable a single SE and 36 CUs are active for hardware-based bc mode.

Slightly narrower & slightly higher clocked than XSX.

If it is 36 CUs clocked at 2+ Ghz, they will sell it for $50.00 to $100.00 cheaper than the XSX.
This is pretty much my take as well. I can't completely ignore Gonzalo/Ariel/Oberon. They were definitely doing something coming up with three different chips, and then testing BC. My take is that the Oberon testing was for BC, but it doesn't give us details outside of BC testing. Most likely answer then is either 2 or 3 SE, with either 36/40 CU or 54/60 CU configuration. If they go narrow and tall then we'll probably see higher clocks, so 36 CU at 2.0 GHZ, for 9.2 TFLOPS. This probably meant they were targeting a lower price. If they go wider they might still shoot for those higher clocks, but if cooling is an issue for such a large high clocked chip then they may go lower clocks. We could see anything from 1.675 (same as Series X) to 2.0 GHZ, for a TF range of 11.58 to 13.82 TFLOPS.
 

Garjon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,998
I think the biggest problem with a discless console is in retailers refusing to sell it, without an extra markup for them.
 

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,683
I can see a situation where you would send the discs to MS. They would verify the discs are still good, then convert the licenses to digital ones at their end. Optimistic, I agree, but it would help get more people into their digital ecosystem if they're going to keep selling digital-only hardware. The $299 price point becomes less appealing if you have to spend extra money repurchasing games.

Personally I don't think it would be $299 at launch or that it wouldn't have a disc drive. The point of a lower cost machine is to keep the latest and greatest a little more accessible for those "tier 2" countries and emerging economies , who are extremely unlikely to have a 4K requirement. A lack of disc drive isn't going to facilitate those migrating from an Xbox One in those specific places.
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,827
I only spoke consoles. And I am 100% that XSX is 7nm. I assume the same for PS5.

I don't know why you are so certain about 7nm+ for PC after the comments of yesterday.

After reading different articles (thanks for the heads up btw) AMD really wanted to avoid that people think it was on N7+ when talked about 7nm+ in the past. Why avoid that thought if you plan to release on that node anyway?
The article you provided to me (from Anandtech) had the old slides in it too (if that is the stuff you currently talk about)

I thought that at first but it is actually for a different reason - to be aligned with TSMC nomenclature changes.

Mark Papermaster in the AMD Analyst Q&A 3:11:45, when asked about why there is no mention of 7nm+

The clarification is in fact nomenclature, as you said.

We work very closely with TSMC and you see how their public roadmap of 7nm evolved, there was at one time a 7nm+, and what is often happened, is these new, full node changes like 7nm, what happens is that some of the enhancements actually get folded in the base roadmap. So 7nm actually has encompassed in that nomenclature, several different grades of its development, so we matched up with TSMC nomenclature.
 

Banamy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,402
I'd figure it would take the PC like approach. Where Series X would be the baseline "Ultra" if you call it something, and Series S would be "High". Resolution drop, various LOD drops (shadows, reflections, etc).

Having the same CPU, RAM, SSD helps a lot though. Just hope it could do a solid 1080p and hit the desired FPS without too much of a downgrade in image quality. The 4 TF just worries on their ability to do that and keep it at full 1080p. I'm not buying that it can handle 1440p without major reductions in quality tho. 1080, sure.
1440p might be stretching it but I think it can be done. I'd assume they treat it as the baseline after the transition to next gen finishes. So no xbox one products to worry about.
 

Expy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,861
My guess (again): 54 CUs (3 SEs with 18 active CUs each) clocked at 1.8 Ghz = 12.44 TFs.

Disable a single SE and 36 CUs are active for hardware-based bc mode.

Slightly narrower & slightly higher clocked than XSX.

If it is 36 CUs clocked at 2+ Ghz, they will sell it for $50.00 to $100.00 cheaper than the XSX.
I like this setup, and it would require a pretty good cooling system as well.
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,827

foamdino

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
491
That is exactly what I think too.
For me XSX and PS5 are both on 7mm (not N7+)

I don't tend to agree with your absolutism around the github information Colbert but I also called the efficiency gains immediately after the CES presentation:

www.resetera.com

PS5 and Xbox Series speculation launch thread |OT9| - For flops sake!

One really nice thing that came out of CES from AMD (which doesn't seem to be getting much attention here), is how power efficient AMD have made an 8c/16t Zen2 for use in ultrathin form factor notebooks. To me that suggests that the amount of power drawn by these new consoles could be less than...

I agree that there will be some IPC gains along with the PPW gains - the AMD engineers seem to have made improvements on each successive 7nm chip Vega7 -> 5700 -> 5600 & Renoir -> RDNA2 cards (without process gains).

I still think PS5 is > 9.2 TF but every little thing we discover suggests that both next-gen machines will be great even at 9TF/12TF - I just want the best they can manage and I think Sony would want to get above 10TF just for the appearance.
 

jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
28,992
I love how you guys are analyzing everything to bits with non conclusive and rumoured info. I don't think there's any other hobby where that happens.
Oh friend, one day venture into a rumored smartphone thread.

Now, they usually aren't that bad because it's always by manufacture. I cant ever recall a Samsung, Motorola device in the same rumor thread. At the most it may be by carrier. I haven't seen that either.
 

Deleted member 12635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,198
Germany
I think you mean that Flute is the platform for the Oberon GPU. I get it now though, there were never three chip designs. Only two.
Indeed.

We know by the id that Ariel/Gonzalo which clocked at 1800 Mhz is based on RDNA1 (Navi 10 Lite). As big changes like an architecture change result in a new chip, new id and new code names, the update with RDNA2 resulted into Oberon/Flute and a clock of 2000 Mhz. The +200 Mhz in clock was possible because of another gain in power efficiency (+50% Perf per Watt) by RDNA2.

My conclusion.
 

Dokkaebi G0SU

Member
Nov 2, 2017
5,922
My guess (again): 54 CUs (3 SEs with 18 active CUs each) clocked at 1.8 Ghz = 12.44 TFs.

Disable a single SE and 36 CUs are active for hardware-based bc mode.


Slightly narrower & slightly higher clocked than XSX.

If it is 36 CUs clocked at 2+ Ghz, they will sell it for $50.00 to $100.00 cheaper than the XSX.
i believe this right here. BELIEVE
 

Cyborg

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,955
Indeed.

We know by the id that Ariel/Gonzalo which clocked at 1800 Mhz is based on RDNA1 (Navi 10 Lite). As big changes like an architecture change result in a new chip and code names the update with RDNA2 resulted into Oberon/Flute and a clock of 2000 Mhz. The +200 Mhz in clock was possible because of another gain in power efficiency (+50% Perf per Watt) by RDNA2.

My conclusion.
You need to take into consideration that your conclusion can be wrong. Its not like your predictions were spot on. :)
You did your best, you were confident (I respect it) but in retrospective it was way off. So maybe just maybe you could be wrong
 

Deleted member 12635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,198
Germany
You need to take into consideration that your conclusion can be wrong. Its not like your predictions were spot on. :)
You did your best, you were confident (I respect it) but in retrospective it was way off. So maybe just maybe you could be wrong
I always thought saying "my conclusion" includes the chance for being wrong.
Otherwise I would say "That is a fact".
 

LordBlodgett

Member
Jan 10, 2020
806
Stupid question: why do you neee 36 CUs for BC? Can't you have a higher amount and turn off a few?
From what we understand about Sony's BC method that they used in the PS4 Pro and have patented they turn off an entire SE to achieve exact hardware matching. That is why people even found the Github info, because it had really weird clocks which matched the PS4 and the PS4 Pro exactly, as well as an unlocked 2.0 Ghz "native" mode. Due to that testing it is believed that they are using the same type of backwards compatibility in the PS5, where they will turn off one SE and leave just 18 CU for original PS4 compatibility (also lowering the clock speed to match PS4), and then for PS4 Pro compatibility they will not disable any CUs, but will just lower the clock speeds to match the PS4 Pro exactly. My guess is that the native mode is either for games which allow variable hardware and can take advantage natively, or else it is the main mode for PS5.
 
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