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How hyped are you?

  • A little hyped

    Votes: 98 15.7%
  • A lot of hyped

    Votes: 50 8.0%
  • WALNUUUUUTSSSSS

    Votes: 222 35.5%
  • Hyped enough to eat this whole bag of walnuts

    Votes: 63 10.1%
  • Hyped enough to bite this moose

    Votes: 37 5.9%
  • Hyped enough to scramble a dozen eggs

    Votes: 39 6.2%
  • Hyped enough to be even more hyped, like, cyclical or something

    Votes: 116 18.6%

  • Total voters
    625
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Micerider

Member
Nov 11, 2017
1,180
So they also dont need to counter MS saying xbox series X has 12TF with anything because that this narrative crap doesnt matter, thats my point.

Well, that's different, Sony never communicated officially about « Power ». I think they are waiting for that for a reason that we don't know yet. It could be that they are indeed lower in TF, but that they want to announce that in a context making sense (ie : pairing with the price, which would make a lower TF still attractive if it is very competitive compared to Series X) or that they want to actually showcase what it means by doing game demos (which are not ready yet). It could even be both scenarios, or a screw-up on their end even, but not a kind of sign on it's own. They will need to come up with something eventually, but there is nothing that forces their hand currently. There is no price out for either system, no-one is going to pre-order now.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,736
If Sony has a good product and price point, core gamers will buy it no matter what which will in turn bring more casual gamers in through word of mouth.

The other issue is Lockhart, which depending on pricing could be disruptive if Sony isn't directly in the middle of XSX and Lockhart in both price and power. I'd argue it's more dangerous for Sony as they have to nail both aspects to be considered a good deal comparatively, plus the Xbox ecosystem has the value add of GamePass.

Yeah, here we're into the broader calculus I'm talking about. There lots of factors, and aspects of each company's brand and ecosystem to pull and push customers.

So Lockhart will be the baseline for next gen? If GPUs only offer greater resolution what is the worry about MS being cross gen with X1 for a year or more? I would stay cross gen as long as I could if I were Sony or MS if the new consoles are only offering resolution gains. If this is the case I'll wait for them to drop in price.

I don't think it's purely MS's strategy - they're going to offer more resolution, more frames, quality of life improvements (load times), and also 'better pixels' to some or other extent (with RT layered in) etc. while remaining cross gen in that period. It appears definitely not to be Sony's strategy - to what extent they bring out the benefit of their tech in their year 1/2 games beyond resolution or more frames, remains to be seen, but they' appear not to be adopting a cross-gen strategy in that period in the way MS is, so there's the possibility, at least, of a more fundamental exploration of the tech in those games.
 

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
4,931
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
Which would be true without the use of GPGPU, something developers made use of this past generation. Yes we can argue that they had to because of the weaker CPUs, however the point still remains that the possibility of extensive use of GPGPU features, made possible by the APU nature of the console, is no longer on the table for a baseline game when the GPUs and available compute are not equivalent. Which is again, not even considering the reported slight differences CPU clock, RAM, and bandwidth.

If you're designing a game it's not a good idea to push the boundaries of your higher spec machine in any of those areas, reduce resolution and hope it doesn't break the game. It would just make more a much more efficient and less headache inducing development process to design around Lockhart and scale up as necessary to your upper limit.
One of the most "GPGPU" compute heavy games this generation relying on tons of GPU compute features enabling the game's existence, Claybook, scaled down its GPU compute simulation to run Nintendo Switch. Tim Lottes has written quite a lot about it. Switch is a system which is a lot less capable than a theoretical lockhart will be relatively.
 

zombiejames

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,933
wrong way round. Xsx isn't 12TF only to scale up res.Xsx is base spec. Lockhart is 4TF which is estimated to be enough to drive 1080p.

Ms have profiling tools and are in a much better place to understand the power needed and scaling efficient than us crazy fools
I just don't see developers building games for the higher spec and port down. We have three years of Pro/One X development as proof. Pro and One X games have to run on base consoles so base consoles are the targets. I don't see them developing games in the completely opposite way all of a sudden, let alone changing the resolution being the only magic bullet required to make that work.

If their games are required to run on a 4TF machine, that 4TF machine will be the baseline. You can quote me on that. I'd love to be proven wrong.
 

JaggedSac

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,988
Burbs of Atlanta
I just don't see developers building games for the higher spec and port down. We have three years of Pro/One X development as proof. Pro and One X games have to run on base consoles so base consoles are the targets. I don't see them developing games in the completely opposite way all of a sudden, let alone changing the resolution being the only magic bullet required to make that work.

If their games are required to run on a 4TF machine, that 4TF machine will be the baseline. You can quote me on that. I'd love to be proven wrong.

Well, one could make the argument that since they will likely be targeting PC, a zen2, 4tf rdna2 machine may not be the baseline anyway. And that is ignoring the discussion Dictator is having in here making the case for that machine not being a problem for games designed for next gen and XSX.
 

Deleted member 12635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,198
Germany
9.2 RDNA2 I'm ok with. I assume if that holds, then Ps5 will be less expensive than xsx. Neither is right or wrong, they'd just be targeting different things
Did you know that 9.2 TF with another 15% IPC increase would get you to RTX 2080 levels of performance?
(15% is a estimation by me, there is no official number by AMD yet)

Another riddle would be solved (Jason Schreier's statement about RTX 2080 performance)

Edited for better clarity!
 
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Ωλ7XL9

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,250
Sony and Microsoft are going to be so indistinguishable in the TeraFlops performance measure, the real difference will be once they both launch how are developers supporting either platform, the exclusives etc also the pricing.
 

Ωλ7XL9

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,250
9.2 RDNA2 I'm ok with. I assume if that holds, then Ps5 will be less expensive than xsx. Neither is right or wrong, they'd just be targeting different things

a 12TF at a high price with no alternative would potentially be a mistake if it's eg $599. Lockhart gives MS some flexibility on positioning.

It's going to be very close to Xbox Series X, not sure why people are latching onto this 9.2 number!
 

Nazgûl

Banned
Dec 16, 2019
3,082
If the resolution is the only difference in games between a 12tf and 4tf console. What differences can we expect between a 9.2tf and 12tf consoles ? Maybe 9.2 it's enough. Maybe for $399 we will see the same perfomances that the SXS wich, at least, it will cost $499.

Assuming PS5 will cost $399
 

zombiejames

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,933
Well, one could make the argument that since they will likely be targeting PC, a zen2, 4tf rdna2 machine may not be the baseline anyway. And that is ignoring the discussion Dictator is having in here making the case for that machine not being a problem for games designed for next gen and XSX.
I hear what he's saying but I'm not buying it. I'm hoping he responds to my Star Citizen benchmarking suggestion.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,736
One of the most "GPGPU" compute heavy games this generation relying on tons of GPU compute features enabling the game's existence, Claybook, scaled down its GPU compute simulation to run Nintendo Switch. Tim Lottes has written quite a lot about it. Switch is a system which is a lot less capable than a theoretical lockhart will be relatively.

It came, what, 18 months later. (And I'll presume with a significant bespoke porting process).

Would the developer have been as ambitious in its goals for GPU focus and use, had they had to account for Switch day one?

I think that's the more pertinent question wrt Lockhart's impact, or lack thereof, on development or development ambitions next gen. Technical possibility after the fact is not good evidence for smooth, low-impact integration of low(er)-end targets into day-and-date development pipelines.
 

Deleted member 12635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,198
Germany
Tangential, but launch price for 65" CX is 20% less than C9 ($3500 vs $2800). Black Friday gon b gud.


JgkOgFx.jpg
 

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
4,931
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
It came, what, 18 months later. (And I'll presume with a significant bespoke porting process).

Would the developer have been as ambitious in its goals for GPU focus and use, had they had to account for Switch day one?

I think that's the more pertinent question wrt lockhart's impact, or lack thereof, on development or development ambitions next gen. Technical possibility after the fact is not good evidence for smooth integration into day-and-date development pipelines, for a low(er)-end target.
The switch is so dramatically different that I cannot slight the port taking longer. It is also dramatically slower than a theoretical lockhart. Better then to ask: Do games run on a RTX 2060 and RTX 2080 Ti at different resolutions at the same settings? Yes.

I think that answers the question more than enough.
 

Silencerx98

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,289
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Gohlad

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
1,072
Did you know that 9.2 TF with another 15% IPC increase would get you to RTX 2080 levels of performance?
Another riddle solved (Jason Schreier's statement)

But then 12TF with another 15% IPC increase would get you way past a RTX 2080.
So either MS lied with the 12 TF or you didn't solve any riddle...

You can't just be selective in what rumours to take for what platform...
 

Sekiro

Member
Jan 25, 2019
2,938
United Kingdom
Did you know that 9.2 TF with another 15% IPC would get you to RTX 2080 levels of performance?
Another riddle solved (Jason Schreier's statement)
Wait really? If that's the case then i'm perfectly fine with 9.2tf, but two questions:

1) how powerful would that make the 12tf Xsx in comparison to turing gpus?

2) is a 15% ipc gain give or take what were expecting in terms of RDNA2 architecture improvements?

Either way this really changed my position of the github leak in a more positive light.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,736
The switch is so dramatically different that I cannot slight the port taking longer. It is also dramatically slower than a theoretical lockhart. Better then to ask: Do games run on a RTX 2060 and RTX 2080 Ti at different resolutions at the same settings? Yes.

I think that answers the question more than enough.


Right, but the question - I believe - was regarding a case of extensive GPGPU use, rather than resolution scaling. That is the case where Lockhart doesn't fit nearly as neatly, potentially. It is the case where it might be the 'Switch' of the litter, so to speak. Architectural similarity aside, if the excess compute wasn't there to do what the dev wanted, the port would be challenging.

There are many credible arguments for why Lockhart might typically be fine for many games - not least a potential lack of extensive gpgpu use next gen - but the 'Switch port' trump card that often gets pulled doesn't hold up IMO as some sort of cover-all for every next-gen use-case that might arise. It's not a good analogy unless we expect developers will treat Xbox ports in those contexts the same way because of the need for a Lockhart downport. It won't be, they'll accommodate it for day and date releases, so it won't be the same (non-)factor in devs' minds wrt 'ambition' or hardware-use, as a hypothetical 'maybe' Switch port is or isn't with the likes of Claybook, or Witcher 3, or whatever.

With the need to guarantee a day and date release on Xbox, Lockhart IMO could be a on hamper whatever 'extensive gpgpu' ambitions a dev might have had otherwise. With that constraint, ambition will slip before release SKUs or dates do. Did they have those ambitions pre-the-existence of Lockhart? Did they think they might have had, over the ensuing 5 years, or whatever, of the cycle? Well, different questions. I guess it wouldn't have been typical, but maybe you'd get different answers depending on who you ask.
 
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gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,136
Did you know that 9.2 TF with another 15% IPC increase would get you to RTX 2080 levels of performance?
Another riddle solved (Jason Schreier's statement)

He said RTX 2080 Ti if i remember right and that was for both consoles .
Don't really see how say that solved anything and he also said both were aiming for over 10.7 and we talking numbers.

EDIT Seem it was super and not Ti still point stands.
 
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Silencerx98

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,289
Too bad there is no BX 48" even cheaper
LOL, true. Although does the B OLED series have HDMI 2.1? With next gen coming up, it's quite important since you're not outputting 4K, HDR, 60FPS, 4:4:4 color gamut on HDMI 2.0. There's also the thing with the B series having slightly lower peak brightness
 

tapedeck

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,982
With 13TF RDNA2, what's the explanation for the $450 part cost stuff for PS5? This higher spec would surely cost Sony much more than that to build..are we assuming that cost was for an older version or was just straight up wrong?
 
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Micerider

Member
Nov 11, 2017
1,180
The switch is so dramatically different that I cannot slight the port taking longer. It is also dramatically slower than a theoretical lockhart. Better then to ask: Do games run on a RTX 2060 and RTX 2080 Ti at different resolutions at the same settings? Yes.

I think that answers the question more than enough.

Because the base design of the game is not pushing for the rtx 2080 ti. Do you think it would apply similarily if, the target would be 12TF RDNA 2.0 and to make the most of it they decide to run it at 1440p (or lower) with some reconstruction techniques. How low in base resolution would to Lockhart drop to in that scenario? Going in all-blurry territory is not going to be a good experience. Or they do "port it down" by reducing other options, but then, it requires additional dev time.

I understand it's not targeting the demanding audience, but it still requires devs to either have additional work, downgrade the experience OR to cap the high-end experience in some aspects to make the downgrade bearable (ie no 540p games on Lockhart if Series X game targets 1080p)
 

Lausebub

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,151
I am going by PC benchmarks for RDR2, scaled on ultra settings from native 4k to 1080p.

Edited my previous post to explain point B

Do you have a link to taht benchmark? The problem with most of those benchmarks is, that the Vram doesn't get freed up, as long as it is not needed,
so it is difficult to test how much Vram different resolutions actaully need.
 

Gohlad

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
1,072
Yes, seriously. You just took Jason's rumour about the RTX 2080 level of perf, but just applied it to your narrative that the 9.2TF with 15% IPC improvement from RDNA 2 will get there. But that would mean that the same IPC improvements apply to the 12TF number of XSX as well, putting it past the RTX 2080. Which then would make Jason's statement wrong as then only one would be at RTX 2080 performance while the other is not...

He emphasised that both consoles ARE at the same performance level.

Edit: or RTX 2080 Super, but my point still stands. If there are IPC improvements for RNDA 2 they apply to both consoles, thus a renowned insider like Jason Schreier wouldn't say both are at RTX 2080 Super level of perf, while actually one only reaches it slightly and the other shoots way past this performance and could be compared to a RTX 2080 TI / Super or whatever...
 

klik

Banned
Apr 4, 2018
873
"The chance of supply chain disruption due to the coronavirus is growing weekly. To assemble optimum inventory for a November launch, I expect both companies to start ramping up production in Q2, so if factories are not back at full capacity by that point there is likely to be some constraint versus optimum shipments in preparation for a launch"
 

-Le Monde-

Avenger
Dec 8, 2017
12,613
If the resolution is the only difference in games between a 12tf and 4tf console. What differences can we expect between a 9.2tf and 12tf consoles ? Maybe 9.2 it's enough. Maybe for $399 we will see the same perfomances that the SXS wich, at least, it will cost $499.

Assuming PS5 will cost $399
I'm glad you brought this up.
 

Deleted member 12635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,198
Germany
Wait really? If that's the case then i'm perfectly fine with 9.2tf, but two questions:

1) how powerful would that make the 12tf Xsx in comparison to turing gpus?

2) is a 15% ipc gain give or take what were expecting in terms of RDNA2 architecture improvements?

Either way this really changed my position of the github leak in a more positive light.

1)
XSX would still sit between a 2080 and a 2080 TI. Nothing would change.

2)
First of all I do not know for certain that RDNA2 has 15% more IPC than RDNA1. That info was not given yesterday. I should have made that more transparent. And to answer the question, I expect an IPC increase of another 10% to 15%, yes. I can't speak for others though.

He said RTX 2080 Ti if i remember right and that was for both consoles .
Don't really see how say that solved anything and he also said both were aiming for over 10.7 and we talking numbers.
No, he did not say 2080 TI. Not even the XSX is able to reach that including a 15% increase in IPC.

If you ignore the targeting higher than Stadia TF, and 2080 Super (not 2080) sure.
A 9.2 TF GPU Navi GPU with another +15% efficiency is beating Stadia's 10.7 TF easily. A 9.2 TF RDNA1 based GPU already beats the Stadia performance.
 

anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,913
Maryland
1)
XSX would still sit between a 2080 and a 2080 TI. Nothing would change.

2)
First of all I do not know for certain that RDNA2 has 15% more IPC than RDNA1. That info was not given yesterday. I should have made that more transparent. And to answer the question, I expect an IPC increase of another 10% to 15%, yes. I can't speak for others though.


No, he did not say 2080 TI. Not even the XSX is able to reach that including a 15% increase in IPC.


A 9.2 TF GPU Navi GPU with another +15% efficiency is beating Stadia's 10.7 TF easily. A 9.2 TF RDNA1 based GPU already beats the Stadia performance.
I think the difference is immaterial to the comparison. Jason was comparing TF directly, as he always has, going way back to his Stadia comments.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,136
No, he did not say 2080 TI. Not even the XSX is able to reach that including a 15% increase in IPC.

I edit to super which what he said but my point still stand .

A 9.2 TF GPU Navi GPU with another +15% efficiency is beating Stadia's 10.7 TF easily. A 9.2 TF RDNA1 based GPU already beats the Stadia performance.

You can't pick and choose how you want to apply rumors .
He said both were aiming for above Stadia 10.7 TF he said nothing about performance.
XB is 12 TF so we know they get pass there target but if Sony is 9.2 not only the fail to get pass it they come it at 1.5TF lower .
He also said the consoles are close and 9.2 to 12 is not close .

I think the difference is immaterial to the comparison. Jason was comparing TF directly, as he always has, going way back to his Stadia comments.

Yep by numbers PS5 at 9.2 come in 1.5 less .
 

RedHeat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,690
If the resolution is the only difference in games between a 12tf and 4tf console. What differences can we expect between a 9.2tf and 12tf consoles ? Maybe 9.2 it's enough. Maybe for $399 we will see the same perfomances that the SXS wich, at least, it will cost $499.

Assuming PS5 will cost $399
Probably RT performance and the ability to keep it at a consistent 4k 60fps. But both should be able to do it pretty easily. Honestly I dont think there would be a huge difference on the broad scope of things
 

ppn7

Member
May 4, 2019
740
LOL, true. Although does the B OLED series have HDMI 2.1? With next gen coming up, it's quite important since you're not outputting 4K, HDR, 60FPS, 4:4:4 color gamut on HDMI 2.0. There's also the thing with the B series having slightly lower peak brightness
The B9 has a 2.1. But yes the peak of brightness is lower than C9. But I watch movie or gaming only in dark room
 
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