Point is that they didnt counter the narrative that their RT is a fake software solution after MS announced RT hardware acceleration
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PS5 Speculation |OT12| - Aw hell, Transistor's running this again?
- Thread starter Mecha Meister
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For a lower resolution target you don't need as much memory and memory bandwidth too. Don't see the issue there honestly.
point b) I honestly do not understand. Lockhart forces devs to stick to very high resolutions?
Going by RDR2, quarter the resolution only saves 1GB of GDDR6, not 4, other sacrifices will be made
As for point B, i am looking at the baseline graphics possible, lets say for simplicity that this gens baseline complexity is 1.
Now lets say that lockhart will be 1080p most of the time and be our new baseline because i dont see developers targeting below 1080p for lockhart. Lets also say that after efficiency improvements lockharts GPU performs like the Xbox One X's, 6/1.84 = 3.2x graphical complexity increase, as in, the graphical complexity of next gen would be 3.2 (or lower if lockhart is running at 1440p).
However, if a developer were to target checkerboard 2160p on the xbox series X, then you get (estimated) rating of 5.5 graphical complexity.
That is what i mean by lockhart potentially holding the gen back by forcing devs to target higher resolutions.
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and got destroyed by the media later on and PR talks as well...
no it's not sater at all...
I don't think this is wrong, but I think it's a pretty unlikely scenario to be honest with you.
I did not know that RDR2 made any sacrifices on the One X regarding memory where they had 9 GB for games (12 GB total). The same amount of memory that is rumored for Lockhart (12 GB total).
What is about your point b) ?
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Ok, most of the developers who Richard chat to did have concerns correct. Here at the 18:00 minute mark Richard Leadbetter says:
Also is 9.2 TF PS5 specs from your sources or just GitHub
Just no. I think we all have to start considering the possibility that neither of these companies have reactionary strategies and are just following their own internal one. There are way to many variables to make statements like this in either direction.
Things like mipmaps and lods would help. But the biggest kicker will be raytracing as that's pretty memory bound. But I think that can scale like resolutions as well
Eh, I don't know.
Sony came right out of the gate in 2013 with a tease in January for a big PS4 reveal in February - despite the fact they had Sly Cooper that came out in March, God of War: Ascension which also came out in March, and The Last of Us in July.
Gotta hand it to some of you. You really know how to sour the mood after getting positive news.
Then you can tune the graphics down on Lockhart, coupled with an even lower resolution and lower framerate.
Those self imposed scenarios make no sense. No one would be willing to go as low as 1080p on SX but for whatever reason would be against of possibly go lower on Lockhart.
Sony having the weaker hardware won't matter much if they close .
Lets say they come in at 11TF 97% of people not going to leave PS eco system for 1TF.
And what just as important if they that close it will hardly show up in games or won't at all.
So even if they weaker they can still afford to do things at there own pace .
Lets say they come in at 11TF 97% of people not going to leave PS eco system for 1TF.
And what just as important if they that close it will hardly show up in games or won't at all.
So even if they weaker they can still afford to do things at there own pace .
You've tested games designed to run on a 2013 1.3x TF Xbox APU. It's like using CEMU to say how Lockhart will be ok because a 4TF GPU scales a WiiU .iso well compared to a 12TF. The core design of a game isn't only made with sliders tweaking scalable post-processing effects, it has to weight on a baseline and to fit in a defined hardware envelope.
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I honestly do wish Lockhart was stronger, even if the DF tests show it can come close to 6TF Polaris. My dream Xbox specs now that we know how high RDNA2 can be clocked would be a 48CU chip with all CUs activated at 2GHz for the XSX, and chips that can't hit those targets would be used for Lockhart, with 44 CUs activated running at maybe 1066MHz for exactly 6TF. This is assuming that it would be more economical, only having to make one chip.
What would the required cooling be for 44 RDNA2 CUs at 1066MHz?
I am going by PC benchmarks for RDR2, scaled on ultra settings from native 4k to 1080p.
Edited my previous post to explain point B
Is this just all assumption or is there anything to base this stuff on though?
So we have:
gonzalo/Ariel/flute - Sony designed APU Navi 10 RDNA1 36/40 CU - purpose unknown as to why Sony bothered developing a RDNA1 chip clocked up to 1.8GHz (IMO BC development)
Oberon - Sony designed APU again 36/40CU very similar to Ariel etc - initially felt to be RDNA1 by Komachi etc but now unsure. Initially 1.8Ghz then 2.0Ghz if I recall correctly
Arden - MS designed 56/60CU RDNA2 chip. Not much data, felt to be at a far earlier stage of development initially
Sparkman - ??? Designed 56/60 CU RDNA2 chip, similar early stage of development
That's likely the savings just from the frame buffer reduction.
But at 1080p you also don't need assets in the same quality as the ones targeting 4k, so you can also use significant less memory there.
The github official channel will provide new official info in the coming days. We can say already that PS5 BOM is now over 500 us dollars and the overall power lower than 9 tflops. Supply chain issues are real but only for Sony of course as confirmed by our friends at Bloomberg. Real developers expressed concerns about Lockheart but our armchair analysts at Github confirmed the low end sku won't have any negative impact on the games development process.
Gears 5 was also designed to run on a 2013 1.3 TF Xbox and it's one of the most technically impressive games this gen.
PC != Consoles
Thanks for explaining point b)
Have you read my case for Lockhart?
A look from a different angle ...
If Sony has a good product and price point, core gamers will buy it no matter what which will in turn bring more casual gamers in through word of mouth.
The other issue is Lockhart, which depending on pricing could be disruptive if Sony isn't directly in the middle of XSX and Lockhart in both price and power. I'd argue it's more dangerous for Sony as they have to nail both aspects to be considered a good deal comparatively, plus the Xbox ecosystem has the value add of GamePass.
So are you saying that a console targeting lower graphical settings will use up more ram for different resolution targets than PC on ultra settings would?
Why are you assuming no developers will target lower than 1080 on Lockhart?
Why can't Lockhart checkerboard up to 1080 from a lower resolution?
1) less bandwidth is expected, it does not need the same bandwidth at lower resolutions it targets anyway. Less memory is also pretty mitigatable as you just have lockheart use a higher level mip for textures if that is a problem. Lower res textures is a common thing to see on PS4pro, PS4, and xbox base. Even on X1X in comparison to PC.
2) I think that does not need to force developers at all as they can target any performance and resolution as they wish. Lockhart is the new "good enough" entry if it is real, but it actually would probably have a competent storage solution and CPU. We have seen a lot of games this generation which go to 720p on Xbox base. People still play and bought them. I imagine something similar could happen and those same consumers would not bat an eye, especially if reconstruction techniques are in play here.
Much like I say to everyone on PC, buying something for X amount of money should never guarantee resolutions or framerate.
Do me a favour.
Take Star Citizen and do some benchmarks, maybe using the same setup you have now to do those incredible tech videos on the game. Now, replace the GPU with one that's 3x weaker (TF-wise) and only lower the resolution. Tell us what happens.
Sure but it's not the question I have asked : to know if a 300% difference of raw GPU power will only translate into more pixel or better shadows, and not impact the design of a game. Otherwise it's like having 2080Ti and only RetroArch to run with. Sure N64 games will look gorgeous on it, but it's not like playing a full capable Windows game.
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that was this gen, which xbox one got ridiculed for, lockhart is next gen, i just dont see developers going below 1080p on a next gen console.
9.2 RDNA2 I'm ok with. I assume if that holds, then Ps5 will be less expensive than xsx. Neither is right or wrong, they'd just be targeting different things
a 12TF at a high price with no alternative would potentially be a mistake if it's eg $599. Lockhart gives MS some flexibility on positioning.
a 12TF at a high price with no alternative would potentially be a mistake if it's eg $599. Lockhart gives MS some flexibility on positioning.
When it comes to holding back games gfx won't be the main problem for lockhart .
It will be the things that can't scale well and most gfx effect can .
It going to be things that the 12TF GPU can do that won't scale well with the drop in bandwidth .
It will be the things that can't scale well and most gfx effect can .
It going to be things that the 12TF GPU can do that won't scale well with the drop in bandwidth .
No, I say the the amount of memory that is rumored looks sufficient to me what a console would target for a resolution of 1080p to 1440p.
I also look at benchmarks on PC for most games where a RTX 2060 with 6GB can run those games easily at ultra settings in those resolutions. Including your example!
The core design of a game is limited in modern times by feature sets available and the CPU as I see it. If lockhart exists and has the same CPU as Series X, and same storage, and the same GPU feature set, then PC space shows us that it can just lower resolution, lower sample counts and be done with it. Yes, even with Ray Tracing as we have tested A LOT with the RTX 2060.
Lockhart can be ridiculed then for having muddy graphics. But it is not for the hardcore, so the audience does not mind. The hardcore will have their PS5s and their XSXs.
Developers can be nervous of course. But even I have evolved my opinion of Lockhart over time, and if lockhart is real, I think devs will as well. All I had to do was think analogies to the PC space and well, it became a much less of an issue.
New ps5 stuff? This close to launch?
HBM+14 tflops confirmed. PS5s final form.
Versus everyone knowing you're the weaker one when you announce it? Naw.
PS5 is an extra $1.50 per teraflop to make the teraflops fit in your entertainment centre.
As I said in my post, I expect it to be more about preparing trailers for the unveil event.
Which narrative? I mean, I understand this was speculated by some on forums, but do we really expect Sony to come out for any speculation made over their console? It's not like there were solid evidences that PS5 wouldn't get hardware RT. They had confirmed RT directly in the Wired article. They have since confirmed that this was an Hardware solution. RDNA 2.0, which, by all means, seems to run the PS5 too, has hardware RT.
So they also dont need to counter MS saying xbox series X has 12TF with anything because that this narrative crap doesnt matter, thats my point.
So now the 8TF difference between Lockhart and Scarelett is only to output at 4K.
Seriously ?
What do you think will happened when devs will follow PC specs and start render games at dynamic resolution : 1800p or even lower ? Lockart will play games at 540p ?
DId people forget how games are rendered throught the lifespan of consoles ?
Seriously ?
What do you think will happened when devs will follow PC specs and start render games at dynamic resolution : 1800p or even lower ? Lockart will play games at 540p ?
DId people forget how games are rendered throught the lifespan of consoles ?
It`s deeply offending that statement. It implies PS5 is not for us but for our children. We have been buying all gamesystems there is up until now and feel the PS5 is OURS and we are entitled to feel this and not hand it off to those new gamers.
Can we Sue? Asking for a friend.
Which would be true without the use of GPGPU, something developers made use of this past generation. Yes we can argue that they had to because of the weaker CPUs, however the point still remains that the possibility of extensive use of GPGPU features, made possible by the APU nature of the console, is no longer on the table for a baseline game when the GPUs and available compute are not equivalent. Which is again, not even considering the reported slight differences CPU clock, RAM, and bandwidth.
If you're designing a game it's not a good idea to push the boundaries of your higher spec machine in any of those areas, reduce resolution and hope it doesn't break the game. It would just make more a much more efficient and less headache inducing development process to design around Lockhart and scale up as necessary to your upper limit.
So Lockhart will be the baseline for next gen? If GPUs only offer greater resolution what is the worry about MS being cross gen with X1 for a year or more? I would stay cross gen as long as I could if I were Sony or MS if the new consoles are only offering resolution gains. If this is the case I'll wait for them to drop in price.
wrong way round. Xsx isn't 12TF only to scale up res.Xsx is base spec. Lockhart is 4TF which is estimated to be enough to drive 1080p.
Ms have profiling tools and are in a much better place to understand the power needed and scaling efficient than us crazy fools
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