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III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,827
I have no special knowledge here and would love to be wrong, but id be shocked if nextgen consoles have anywhere near the RT of the 2080. its highly expensive new technology, and I'd expect the few glimpses of nextgen games we've seen would be highlighting rt a lot more if it was this amazing killer app.
Nothing we have seen has been on AMD with fixed function ray tracing. It's all been pieced out PC components to date. We won't see anything for a while, I imagine. Number 2 we don't really know how efficient AMD solution is at the hardware level and it's functionally different than NVIDIA, so its not clear how they will compare to each other.
 

vivftp

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,744
If Osiris wants to have a good time here, it is better he says nothing. Every "insider" that gave even a hint of what they know behind the scenes regretted it. Reiner hounded by fanboys on Twitter. Jason got sick of sites that lurk this thread for easy news hits taking his every word and using it as a big, attention grabbing headline. Klee suffering for weeks of passive-aggressive sniping until he requested a ban.

Don't forget Benji!

I agree the track record is poor for insiders choosing to stick around very long, and I'm saddened by it :(

Ah well, I'm sure Osiris will choose what they feel is the best course of action for themselves.
 

CypressFX

Banned
Feb 25, 2019
298
This one?
https://pastebin.com/UAbUBpMk


Any reliable rumors about early MS devkits using nvidia? By June a lot of devs should've been getting the updated PS5 devkits, but this post doesn't specify which one was still on Vega. I have no idea what is known about Navi 21 LITE these days.


395 is probably within the margin of error for those measurements. Probably doesn't mean anything though.
Microsoft did indeed used Nvidida cards back in 2013 to show the upcoming Xbox games, but it was more a secret , since everybody assumed XOne hardware was inside of the packages (turned out to be PCs with Gegorce cards) so this might be legit.

plus whats interesting: He specifically said Navi 21, which wasnt found until late of 2019 AFAIK
 

catswaller

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,797
Nothing we have seen has been on AMD with fixed function ray tracing. It's all been pieced out PC components to date. We won't see anything for a while, I imagine. Number 2 we don't really know how efficient AMD solution is at the hardware level and it's functionally different than NVIDIA, so its not clear how they will compare to each other.
Sure, but none of those things are cause for extreme optimism. Ill be very happy if its comparable to a 2070 in terms of rt -- that would move gaming graphics forward a ton.
 

jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
28,992
Microsoft did indeed used Nvidida cards back in 2013 to show the upcoming Xbox games, but it was more a secret , since everybody assumed XOne hardware was inside of the packages (turned out to be PCs with Gegorce cards) so this might be legit.

plus whats interesting: He specifically said Navi 21, which wasnt found until late of 2019 AFAIK
Did y'all ever find this paste bin before?
 

disco_potato

Member
Nov 16, 2017
3,145
Someone on the old site gave a good point on the github leak

"
I don't take these Github tests as reliable because it lacks context.
But if you look into them you will see they only tested 18CUs and 36CUs that match the PS4 and PS4 Pro number of CUs.
So they only tested two modes: 18CUs and 36CUs with both original clock and up to 2Ghz.

The Github testes shows to you that the PS5 in PS4 Pro mode can reach 9.2TFs in a stress test.
The clock up to 2Ghz is probably a stress test... no Navi based chip will run at 2Ghz in a comercial product... you can forget about that.

Now we need to know how many CUs the PS5 chip will have? That the Github tests didn't give you."

"
Continuing...

Taking the Github tests in mind I can guess Sony will have 2 options for each BC mode.

PS4 BC Normal Mode: 18CUs @ 800Mhz
PS4 BC Boost Mode: 18CUs @ Up to 2000Mhz (they will choose a clock they thing is comfortable)

PS4 Pro BC Normal Mode: 36CUs @ 911Mhz
PS4 Pro BC Boost Mode: 36CUs @ Up to 2000Mhz (they will choose a clock they thing is comfortable)

2000Mhz looks to me stress test but I can see something between 1600 and 1900Mhz.

We need a test with all PS5 CUs active to start to guess how much power the PS5 will have.
That the Github doesn't give you."

"
The tests are about PS4 / PS4 BC modes so Ray-tracking is disabled.
There is no tests from what I know in PS5 Mode with full CUs and ray-tracking enabled."

If I'm not mistaken, those tests showed 40cu/2000mhz as native, not a BC mode.
 

anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,912
Maryland
Agreed. The costs of these new nodes however is looking pretty expensive, IIRC.
Yes. More process steps. More exotic materials. Higher power levels and lower throughput for EUV. Pellicle issues, and on and on :)


Oh well. I remember some time ago it was in the news Samsung was investing lots of money in graphene as a potential next sillicon.
No one has produced anything on any kind of scale even in a lab setting, much less something that can be scaled to production.
 

vivftp

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,744
If i had to make an educated guess I doubt any console would be $600. Even if they clocked in at around that price you have to eat $100 and make it up on the back end. Live and Plus subs and software.

I had hoped that Sony might choose to make a PS5 that was ~$600 to manufacture and sell it for $500 given the fact that we know that PS4 first year owners netted them an average of $1600 over the lifespan of the console (not including the console itself) so they'd be making their money back very easily.
 

Thera

Banned
Feb 28, 2019
12,876
France
Understand but still think that this first rt games want to show rt reflections so much that they kinda looks unnatural, I'm sure when rt will be more common in nextgen consoles games effects also will be more subtle and better.
Of course it will. We are really hardware oriented here but people forget quickly that software keeps getting optimised on every aspect.
New technology aren't easy to implement at first. Even HDR isn't perfectly handle by every engines.
On of the big thing on this gen was particles.
Was it already impressive on Infamous? Yes. Is it comparable to God of War? Hell no.
I think GI will have a lot of optimisation and will ended up pretty common mid gen.
 

OsirisBlack

Banned
Jan 2, 2020
22
I had hoped that Sony might choose to make a PS5 that was ~$600 to manufacture and sell it for $500 given the fact that we know that PS4 first year owners netted them an average of $1600 over the lifespan of the console (not including the console itself) so they'd be making their money back very easily.

Your logic is sound, seems reasonable to me.
 

vivftp

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,744
Your logic is sound, seems reasonable to me.

Yeah, and Pachter's comments about the PS5 sounding like a "800" and "1000" dollar machine had me thinking he's heard some crazy specs for it. What always struck me as odd about that is the 2 times he's brought it up he's specifically mentioned the PS5 sounds extremely expensive, so I'm very curious what he's basing that off of considering Microsoft has more or less said the same things about their next gen console. It's gotta be something other than what's been publicly revealed otherwise he'd be saying that about both machines.
 

Deleted member 19767

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,098
This one?
https://pastebin.com/UAbUBpMk


Any reliable rumors about early MS devkits using nvidia? By June a lot of devs should've been getting the updated PS5 devkits, but this post doesn't specify which one was still on Vega. I have no idea what is known about Navi 21 LITE these days.


395 is probably within the margin of error for those measurements. Probably doesn't mean anything though.

This one is interesting if only for the Navi 21 reference and rather specific measurements. Probably a complete fake too, but it's at least more interesting than the 700th - "guys I work at a AAA studio and blah blah".
 

OsirisBlack

Banned
Jan 2, 2020
22
Yeah, and Pachter's comments about the PS5 sounding like a "800" and "1000" dollar machine had me thinking he's heard some crazy specs for it. What always struck me as odd about that is the 2 times he's brought it up he's specifically mentioned the PS5 sounds extremely expensive, so I'm very curious what he's basing that off of considering Microsoft has more or less said the same things about their next gen console. It's gotta be something other than what's been publicly revealed otherwise he'd be saying that about both machines.

Cant comment on this until I get vetted but I would guess hes not just saying it to be saying it. He is pretty well connected.
 

Deleted member 19767

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,098
Yeah, and Pachter's comments about the PS5 sounding like a "800" and "1000" dollar machine had me thinking he's heard some crazy specs for it. What always struck me as odd about that is the 2 times he's brought it up he's specifically mentioned the PS5 sounds extremely expensive, so I'm very curious what he's basing that off of considering Microsoft has more or less said the same things about their next gen console. It's gotta be something other than what's been publicly revealed otherwise he'd be saying that about both machines.

Yeah it is strange that Pachter has specifically commented on PS5 sounding expensive. It could just be the way he has interpreted the information given to him.
 

DrKeo

Banned
Mar 3, 2019
2,600
Israel
Still my favorite logo concept.


This is my favorite:


Someone on the old site gave a good point on the github leak

"
I don't take these Github tests as reliable because it lacks context.
But if you look into them you will see they only tested 18CUs and 36CUs that match the PS4 and PS4 Pro number of CUs.
So they only tested two modes: 18CUs and 36CUs with both original clock and up to 2Ghz.

The Github testes shows to you that the PS5 in PS4 Pro mode can reach 9.2TFs in a stress test.
The clock up to 2Ghz is probably a stress test... no Navi based chip will run at 2Ghz in a comercial product... you can forget about that.

Now we need to know how many CUs the PS5 chip will have? That the Github tests didn't give you."

"
Continuing...

Taking the Github tests in mind I can guess Sony will have 2 options for each BC mode.

PS4 BC Normal Mode: 18CUs @ 800Mhz
PS4 BC Boost Mode: 18CUs @ Up to 2000Mhz (they will choose a clock they thing is comfortable)

PS4 Pro BC Normal Mode: 36CUs @ 911Mhz
PS4 Pro BC Boost Mode: 36CUs @ Up to 2000Mhz (they will choose a clock they thing is comfortable)

2000Mhz looks to me stress test but I can see something between 1600 and 1900Mhz.

We need a test with all PS5 CUs active to start to guess how much power the PS5 will have.
That the Github doesn't give you."

"
The tests are about PS4 / PS4 BC modes so Ray-tracking is disabled.
There is no tests from what I know in PS5 Mode with full CUs and ray-tracking enabled."
If I'm not mistaken, those tests showed 40cu/2000mhz as native, not a BC mode.
The Github leak said next to the 36 CU test "full chip results". If you want to see what's in the leak:
www.resetera.com

PS5 and Xbox Series speculation launch thread |OT9| - For flops sake!

Where does this leak originate from? The Power VR stuff whiffs of someone trying to make guesses based on the recent Oberon revelations whilst the rest is some older PS5 'leaks' thrown in with little though as to how it matches up with the aforementioned recent 'leak'.
 

Pheonix

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
5,990
St Kitts
You're making a slightly different, but equally interesting point, IMO.

What you are cluing into is that we are reaching a point of diminishing returns on Moore's Law, whereby to extract a significant (or worthy) advance in performance, you're not going to rely on silicon improvements alone anymore. From the "modern age" of gaming between PS1 Gen and PS4 Gen, the silicon advancements alone were astronomical. The PS1 CPU was on a 500nm process. The PS4 Pro is on a 16nm process. Next gen looks to be targeting 7nm. Combine that with an amazing run on improvements in rendering techniques, plus all the integrated "secret sauce" rendering that was being built natively into the silicon. There were also other market factors (desktop rendering, growth of CD/DVD/BD, massive advancements in storage density), all combined to create a golden age of graphics computing.

It was enough to rely on process improvements between generational shifts that you could mostly count on those advancements to not only bring down costs (reducing price over time) but have a significant performance bump without the need to really increase die area. The run on console improvements (as a percentage of growth) on $200-$300 boxes from 1995 - 2013 may never be seen again.

Going forward, we have a slowing of Moore's First Law, the application of Moore's Second Law (or Rock's Law) becomes more apparent. It's going to get more costly to produce these upcoming nodes. And the market dynamics around storage and media are no longer in play. So not only are the things we come to associate with consoles fixed in cost, in some cases they are getting either stagnant or more expensive.

So you are completely right - one of 3 things has to happen.
1. You're going to see smaller and smaller % leaps in performance between generations if you want low cost and price drops.
2. The price of consoles are going to have to go up in order to provide meaningful differentiation. You will see less price drops over time. This is your "advancement tax"
3. Console manufacturers will have to eat more loss on HW to offset #1 and #2.

So your point is super valid. Inflation has nothing to do with it. If you're paying attention to technology, the console business is going to come under tremendous pressure as it becomes harder and harder to deliver huge leaps in performance every few years at price points that were seen has historically successful.

I don't paint this as doom-and-gloom for consoles. Only that the traditional boundaries are going to have to be broken and accepted at some point.

Fun times ahead!
Exactly... couldn't say it better myself.

I mean think of it, but the PS3 and 360had discrete CPUs and GPUs for crying out loud. Try doing that no and you end up with a $700 console. Like it's not like its impossible for sony or MS to just make a 500mm2 APU and pack it with 64Cus, but that chip would probably cost them $350 on its own.

And yes, everything else is getting a lite more expensive. We aren't just talking about RAM now, but talking about GDDR6 RAM at least, and more of it than would be found in any GPU (their primary market). We aren't just talking rumble, we are talking about haptic feedback, not just USB but USB type C... all these things cost just a tad bit more (even if its in cents) than what they are replacing.

I think that these consoles going in at $500 may actually be a combination of what you suggested, them eating some of that cost and raising the price to offset some of the costs too.

People look at $500 and say that must mean we are getting monsters. I look at it and say we are getting the best we can get in 2020. Considering all else that's going into those boxes. Hell even how these things are marketed is different now. Back then you just pushed stuff out to a couple of magazines here and there and did a few TV commercials. Now marketing these things must be a small nightmare for those involved...don't even get me started on the almost mandatory global launches now lol.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,151
United Kingdom
Yes. More process steps. More exotic materials. Higher power levels and lower throughput for EUV. Pellicle issues, and on and on :)

EUV is already like sci-if space magic to me. I can't wait to see how things will evolve moving into the future. Even more fascinating, i'm sure.

On a side note, does anyone know how TSMC has solved the pellicle issue with EUV?
 

jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
28,992
cover2.jpg

lol!
 

DrKeo

Banned
Mar 3, 2019
2,600
Israel
I had hoped that Sony might choose to make a PS5 that was ~$600 to manufacture and sell it for $500 given the fact that we know that PS4 first year owners netted them an average of $1600 over the lifespan of the console (not including the console itself) so they'd be making their money back very easily.
AFAIK, Sony didn't make 1600$ off these users, the users have spent 1600$. So if they bought the new COD:MW for 60$ on PSN, Sony got 18$ (30%) of that. It also probably includes stuff like controllers and games bought in Gamestop which again Sony doesn't get most of that money spent. So it's pretty hard to tell how much Sony made from each of those first-year users.

BBVqzjZ.jpg
 

Soriku

Member
Nov 12, 2017
6,893
You're making a slightly different, but equally interesting point, IMO.

What you are cluing into is that we are reaching a point of diminishing returns on Moore's Law, whereby to extract a significant (or worthy) advance in performance, you're not going to rely on silicon improvements alone anymore. From the "modern age" of gaming between PS1 Gen and PS4 Gen, the silicon advancements alone were astronomical. The PS1 CPU was on a 500nm process. The PS4 Pro is on a 16nm process. Next gen looks to be targeting 7nm. Combine that with an amazing run on improvements in rendering techniques, plus all the integrated "secret sauce" rendering that was being built natively into the silicon. There were also other market factors (desktop rendering, growth of CD/DVD/BD, massive advancements in storage density), all combined to create a golden age of graphics computing.

It was enough to rely on process improvements between generational shifts that you could mostly count on those advancements to not only bring down costs (reducing price over time) but have a significant performance bump without the need to really increase die area. The run on console improvements (as a percentage of growth) on $200-$300 boxes from 1995 - 2013 may never be seen again.

Going forward, we have a slowing of Moore's First Law, the application of Moore's Second Law (or Rock's Law) becomes more apparent. It's going to get more costly to produce these upcoming nodes. And the market dynamics around storage and media are no longer in play. So not only are the things we come to associate with consoles fixed in cost, in some cases they are getting either stagnant or more expensive.

So you are completely right - one of 3 things has to happen.
1. You're going to see smaller and smaller % leaps in performance between generations if you want low cost and price drops.
2. The price of consoles are going to have to go up in order to provide meaningful differentiation. You will see less price drops over time. This is your "advancement tax"
3. Console manufacturers will have to eat more loss on HW to offset #1 and #2.

So your point is super valid. Inflation has nothing to do with it. If you're paying attention to technology, the console business is going to come under tremendous pressure as it becomes harder and harder to deliver huge leaps in performance every few years at price points that were seen has historically successful.

I don't paint this as doom-and-gloom for consoles. Only that the traditional boundaries are going to have to be broken and accepted at some point.

Fun times ahead!

What about 4...longer gens if there aren't as many improvements as fast?
 

vivftp

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,744
That guy never said anything regarding ps5 anymore. But he still uses reddit. 😩

Yeah, I occasionally take a look to see if they've said anything new, but sadly it looks like they're no longer providing info :(

Ah well.

Anyways, so what's this about Ariel still being tested? In the off chance that Ariel and Oberon are both GPU's and the PS5 winds up with a dual GPU I'm gonna giggle till I pass out over that news :D
 

OsirisBlack

Banned
Jan 2, 2020
22
I didn't want to pry, but since you bring it up have you begun the process to become vetted, or is that something you might do in the future?

Looking into it.

A wild OsirisBlack appeared!!

Welcome, good sir.

Thank you and hello.

Are your sources backing his thoughts up?

Yes. The only thing I can say without being vetted and getting myself in trouble being new here is that the overall FLOPS shouldn't really be a talking point. The machines are so close in terms of raw power that other things will be the deciding factor in what runs better or which has situational advantages. At least that's my personal take on the situation.
 

vivftp

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,744
AFAIK, Sony didn't make 1600$ off these users, the users have spent 1600$. So if they bought the new COD:MW for 60$ on PSN, Sony got 18$ (30%) of that. It also probably includes stuff like controllers and games bought in Gamestop which again Sony doesn't get most of that money spent. So it's pretty hard to tell how much Sony made from each of those first-year users.

BBVqzjZ.jpg

I know, I thought about amending my previous comment to clarify that, but I felt lazy, lol.

Yeah, between accessories, subscriptions and first party sales alone I'm sure Sony would be making more than enough money off of initial buyers to compensate for taking a loss. Not to mention I'm sure the PS4 will be continue to pull in pure profit to help offset any losses they take on the PS5 hardware until they can get manufacturing costs down.
 

anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,912
Maryland
EUV is already like sci-if space magic to me. I can't wait to see how things will evolve moving into the future. Even more fascinating, i'm sure.

On a side note, does anyone know how TSMC has solved the pellicle issue with EUV?
I would expect they're not using one. Typically the system provider would give those, and ASML has not announced that they solved the issue.

Yes. The only thing I can say without being vetted and getting myself in trouble being new here is that the overall FLOPS shouldn't really be a talking point. The machines are so close in terms of raw power that other things will be the deciding factor in what runs better or which has situational advantages. At least that's my personal take on the situation.

Did you kill Klee to absorb his powers?
 

Deleted member 19767

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,098
Looking into it.



Thank you and hello.



Yes. The only thing I can say without being vetted and getting myself in trouble being new here is that the overall FLOPS shouldn't really be a talking point. The machines are so close in terms of raw power that other things will be the deciding factor in what runs better or which has situational advantages. At least that's my personal take on the situation.

Welcome Osiris.

I would suggest you avoid talking about your sources or any approval/support of other information/rumours until you're vetted.
 

MrDeveus

Member
Apr 26, 2019
833
Looking into it.



Thank you and hello.



Yes. The only thing I can say without being vetted and getting myself in trouble being new here is that the overall FLOPS shouldn't really be a talking point. The machines are so close in terms of raw power that other things will be the deciding factor in what runs better or which has situational advantages. At least that's my personal take on the situation.

welcome good sir!

been saying for a while now that people should not be concerned about which one has more power in terms of tflops.

should be more encouraged by the cpu,SSD,Ram, other secret sauce each console will bring to the table, that's what is truly exciting about next gen.
 

Whatislove

Member
Jan 2, 2019
905
Looking into it.



Thank you and hello.



Yes. The only thing I can say without being vetted and getting myself in trouble being new here is that the overall FLOPS shouldn't really be a talking point. The machines are so close in terms of raw power that other things will be the deciding factor in what runs better or which has situational advantages. At least that's my personal take on the situation.
Wait, so you're an as-of-yet unconfirmed insider?
 
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