Lets be optimistic that they can somehow leverage some RDNA goodness. Up to 25% includes the value zero too ;)
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PS5 and Xbox Series speculation launch thread |OT9| - For flops sake!
- Thread starter Mecha Meister
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I believe the BC team did do it all themselves, though I cannot source that belief. I'm not sure what you mean by 'magically make games better'. It takes a lot of work.
So PS5 will be BC with 100% of PS4 titles at least and probably BC with the majority of PS1-PS3 titles? Put in the disc and play?
Speaking from experience here: price point is defined before you even start design, starts with product development. You define functional requirements, features and a price point. You run market research to see how it would work, how acceptable that package is in relation to your projected addressable market. Then you design a product to meet these criteria. If you can't meet all criteria for some reason, you adjust stuff, but price point is quite usually the one that has the least amount of leeway to be adjusted.
Really? Maybe I'm playing the wrong (right) games but I can't remember when I waited for "dozens" (so min. 24) seconds for a game to load on PC.
Most recently I've been playing FFXIV, DS3 and Atelier Ryza and at most the loading screens took around 5-7 seconds.
PS4 BC (digital and physical) is a topic we shouldn't even be discussing. However there is high chance it will be all the PS5's BC will offer (no PS1/2/3).
I hope it does but I am not sure average modern consumer even cares beyond PS4 library.
I hope it does but I am not sure average modern consumer even cares beyond PS4 library.
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Do they send invites to media early?
lol
You ifs are based on the reality of how it's incompletely done on XB1 (well they are actually not doing BC there). Why don't you use as reference how Sony actually do BC on their previous machines ? The only time they didn't include BC on their console at launch was because it was not technically possible.
I referencing people who believe that BC games can be significantly enhanced without any work or patches
Yes, it is similar. Most GCN instructions still work.
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I would assume that the non-patched games would run natively as well, with a "boost mode" toggle much like that of Pro being available but not fully supported.
Had the Xbox come out at 50 dollars less, without kinect and, most importantly, without the baggage of that PR blunder, they would have fared quite a bit better. The thing is, I firmly believe Sony will launch at 399 this time, be less powerful and still outsell the competition handily.
Last time they sent invitations around the very end of January and event was on the 20th of February.
IIRC, the PSM 2013 Tweet and media invite emails (Geoff Keighley etc) went out basically simultaneously on January 31st.
- Noone knows if they're gonna be $399 or $499.
- Noone knows if the PS5 it's 9TF or 12TF
- Noone knows for sure if the Series X is 10TF or 12TF (and it has already been revealed, imagine that)
Let's hope we can at least get an answer to the second question during the PS5 reveal, but I'm starting to doubt that.
For the third one it could be any minute, or more likely until E3. And the price reveal won't be until E3 for sure. Unless we get a confirmation of the 12TF before that, which would imply $499. (But that is why I don't think we'll get it anytime soon)
In short, we're fucked for the next 6 weeks at least
- Noone knows if the PS5 it's 9TF or 12TF
- Noone knows for sure if the Series X is 10TF or 12TF (and it has already been revealed, imagine that)
Let's hope we can at least get an answer to the second question during the PS5 reveal, but I'm starting to doubt that.
For the third one it could be any minute, or more likely until E3. And the price reveal won't be until E3 for sure. Unless we get a confirmation of the 12TF before that, which would imply $499. (But that is why I don't think we'll get it anytime soon)
In short, we're fucked for the next 6 weeks at least
While low level inflation is generally a response to fluctiation on the demand/supply curve for most essential goods, inflation for non-essential stuff is much, much more complex than that. That's why you have the detachment for certain categories of goods.
On a macro scale, money supply and some other market pressures also can cause inflation/deflation. So no, you can't just equate "consumers are willing to pay more money" = "inflation".
Also, that line of thought is a weird reversion on cause and effect. Gravity exists because apples fall from trees.
There are no patches to the original code, so 3rd parties don't have to do anything.
It's magical in that the emulator can make the resolution and vsync and AF can all be switched on and the games have access to more CPU/GPU. Whether or not the game works when they enable these things is another question.
Which is why every game is rigorously tested and profiled ensure it functions exactly as it should - by Microsoft.
So in simplified terms each game has it's own configuration file.
As they were developing the emulator and testing games, they were making efficiency changes and fixes for specific games , that no doubt had effects in other places too.
With the exception of a couple of games which had a "patch" or were using a different executable in order to facilitate the playing of multi game discs, it was all done by Microsoft
I wouldn't even call MS's stragety Backward Compatibility, since the hardware platform is not backward compatible, it's the software that's made to be compatible with the hardware, so making the software forward compatible. Since it's not possible without downloading a full digital version of the game, even if you have the disc.
Cool. Thanks for clarifying
So you saying that games require more testing than anything else.
Not sure but there's a lot. The most requested games basically are there (maybe a few still missing). I have to say it's pretty good being able to play Mass Effect and other of my favorites of last gen, too bad my original xbox one doesn't improve things like the X does though.
AFAIK Playstation had an extra silicon outside the main SOC to do BC (in the past) and on PS4 emulation for PS1 & PS2 titles. This time at least for PS4 BC it seems they go a completely different route (no extra chip and obviously not emulation for PS4).
I also don't understand the introduction of Xbox into what is discussed. No idea what PS5 BC has to do with how Xbox does their BC. Is this an attempt to start another senseless console wars battlefield?
I hope leveraging BC means Sony will put the effort in to get as many of their games patched day one to make the absolute most of it. It's nice saying PS5 will play all your current games, but it's enticing to say it will run all your existing PS4 games but with drastic improvements to performance, resolution, framerate and load times. Otherwise it's not really giving anyone a reason to upgrade immediately. So yeah, I hope it's not bare minimum BC but a really beefed up implementation, at least as far as first parties are concerned. Also hope that games like Rocket League are on the button and have day one patches as well. Looking forward to native 4K rock solid 60, no screen tearing and every setting at max!
We are saying the same thing really...
Sony released the PS4 at $399. And in 2016, after whenever they started planning to make the PS4pro, they decided to design a $399 console (again).
That design choice is not indicative of them feeling that all the market will spend for a console is $399.
And I don't even fully agree with you that pricing is this fixed target that everything revolves around. I believe that while its a target, it's also a flexible one. So yes, while at the start of discussions, they say "ok, what can we build for $399..." there is also another group there looking at "what more can we do if it were $499". at the end of the day, they end up going in the direction that makes the most sense.
But to suggest that sometime in 2017 sony decided to build a $399 console NO MATTER WHAT... is, idk. There are a lot of moving parts with these things, a lot of things can change during the development of a console.
They're not. It takes years to go from designing to actually producing these chips. All these companies have been working on some version of RT since forever, Nvidia just ended up being first for implementing it in their dGPUs.
It depends on the game. On my i7 9700k and Samsung 970 Evo Plus NVMe 3.5GB/s Gears 5 can take a lot of time to launch into the menu and ~15 seconds to load a saved game. Soul Calibur VI takes 13 seconds to start an arcade match and Recore takes 19 seconds to launch and 26 seconds to load a saved game. Different games, different load times but don't expect PS4 games to just pop into a game like PS5 games.
I honestly don't exactly know what the boost toggle did other than make use of the slightly better clocks of the PS4 Pro. But IIRC PS4 games ran with 18CU active, regardless of Boost mode on or off. Is that correct?
If this is a correct assumption (about PS4 Pro boost mode) then I would assume that gen0 and gen1 modes (of PS5) adjust their active CU count as well to 18 (gen0: PS4) and 36 (gen1: PS4 Pro).
I really don't knowwhy its such a big deal. Like BC? Really?
As long as the PS5 can play PS4 games, be it off a disc or downloaded, as long as whatever you already have is carried over to the new console... sony is fine, even if they can't play PS3, PS2 or PS1 games.
When I hear sony talk "transition", what I really think is that with the PS5, and for PS+ subscribers, they are going to start giving out a lot more games monthly. 2 for the PS5 and as much as 4-6 PS4 games during the "transitional" years. Or even have their own service similar to game pass.
No, I don't think an unoptimized game will suddenly magically load in 1-2 seconds, but I really don't think it would be more than 10. I might have gotten too used to my m.2 SSD but anything over 10 seconds feels like an eternity now...
Here are some relevant words from head of Xbox Game Studios Matt Booty on Xbox launch titles in an interview - https://www.mcvuk.com/read-the-janu...ominic-wheatley-piccolo-studio-and-much-more/. This matches up with previous words directly from Bonnie Ross at 343 that it is ideal when you can launch with a big game such as Halo that utilizes platform capabilities, and Frank O'Connor saying that Project Scarlett would be a "special class citizen" for development. This is a very large studio handling their biggest IP that is also launching on PC where they will want to hit high performance targets too, so we should definitely see some awesome use of the Xbox Series X on this one. Man, can we fast forward to launch day already :)
Getting more gens on PS5 plays right into PS+ and PS Now. It gives them loads of content that could be utilized. I think they should try to get it all (PS1-PS4 and handhelds) on PS5.
Ok, this makes sense because I know it was bought up that both mid been refreshes were the launch price. It's not so much that they were more expensive, they cut the price on the base consoles.
Also, Sony themselves said one of the reasons for the Pro was to stop ppl from migrating to PC. And IIRC Phil Spencer said the Pro was what you could expect for when it launched. Sony do think about power. IMO MS is a dual threat with how much they've embraced PC gaming lately.
How much Sony cares about power remains to be seen.
wasn't there a patent relating to making this easier for developers? I remember something about that I will look around.
Too much to reply to that. I'll keep it short.
Depending on the game, there is a whole world building mechanic at play when "loading" the game. And you while you can prebake part of it, you can't reasonably prebake all of it, especially with dynamic worlds. This requires large amount of computing power even a beefy DSP won't realistically compensate.
Heavily duplicated data is likely small fry that isn't "vital" but needs to be accessed quickly at all times. You won't save large amounts of disk space with near-instantaneous access times.
The PS5 will be $499 and rightfully so. We watched the XB1X launch at the exact same price point in 2018 so both manufactures will be taking a loss at launch until the internal components manufacturing price falls.
But more importantly, the PS5 price point simply doesn't matter.
I'm not suggesting that a $600-$700 console wouldn't be problematic. Just that outside of the enthusiast bubble I'm yet to see a more powerful PS5 (in comparison to the PS4) at $499 being a point of contention. It's another completely false narrative. The PS5 could launch at $555 and enthusiasts will still line up in the cold to get one.
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Over the past few days I've seen a lot of bans being handed out on era. And I suspect that it's not because the forum has suddenly become more vitriolic but because people are too deep within the forum bubble. Having discussions that elevate specs and tflops as the most important aspect that when the wider gaming market makes it voice heard and heard so emphatically, it invalidates the aforementioned and people get angered by that invalidation.
Personally I'm still wondering what a "Surplus" or "Deficit" of TFLOS means to me when Sony show cases Horizon Zero Dawn 2 on the PS5 utilizing haptic feedback on the DS5 for a more visceral experience... As I pull my bow string. But hey...
But more importantly, the PS5 price point simply doesn't matter.
I'm not suggesting that a $600-$700 console wouldn't be problematic. Just that outside of the enthusiast bubble I'm yet to see a more powerful PS5 (in comparison to the PS4) at $499 being a point of contention. It's another completely false narrative. The PS5 could launch at $555 and enthusiasts will still line up in the cold to get one.
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Over the past few days I've seen a lot of bans being handed out on era. And I suspect that it's not because the forum has suddenly become more vitriolic but because people are too deep within the forum bubble. Having discussions that elevate specs and tflops as the most important aspect that when the wider gaming market makes it voice heard and heard so emphatically, it invalidates the aforementioned and people get angered by that invalidation.
Personally I'm still wondering what a "Surplus" or "Deficit" of TFLOS means to me when Sony show cases Horizon Zero Dawn 2 on the PS5 utilizing haptic feedback on the DS5 for a more visceral experience... As I pull my bow string. But hey...
It really does depends on the game and we shouldn't expect PS5 to beat a gaming PC loading times by that much, if at all, unless Sony has some sort of OS-wide feature to help old games load faster than what the SSD and CPU can brute-force. Some games will load in 5 seconds, others in 30, it really depends on the game.
I don't understand on what you are reacting too. I think you extrapolate what I said quite a bit.
DF said it's almost certainly just using the higher clocks and not extra CUs. which is interesting if the rumors of 1.9 to 2ghz are true for ps5. unpatched games could see a substantial improvement if they weren't hitting their target frame rates.
The whole logo situation showcases that. The biggest thing Sony must get right at launch is communication. If they properly communicate the value of the PS5 and it is well received, PS5 will sell really well almost guaranteed.
So, I disagree with the notion that Sony needs to go $399 to see the success they want. They can go $499 and still easily have a lot of success.
I was telling a couple of friends that the PS5 was looking to be about AU$699, and they were just fine with that. One even said that felt normal for a console, when it would actually be the most expensive one released in years.
They don't touch the source code and that has been repeated many times. This whole post is nonsense.
I'm starting to wonder if we'll ever get TF figures from the companies. We may get it for the PS5 or SX if either is proven to be more powerful but I doubt we'll ever get it for Lockhart.
Havent we always gotten specs from both MS and Sony? I dont know why we wouldnt get it this time. Is the discussion of power more intense this gen than last? Doesnt seem so to me.
They can. Doesn't mean they'll do it.
400$ is a sweet spot and I doubt they'll deviate from it. But then again it's all speculation 🤷♀️
I mean if one next gen console is 500$ and another one is 400$, even if the 500$ has twice the GPU power, the 400$ one will sell very well.
I think people vastly underestimate how much launch price was the main reason PS4 butchered X1.
Only fanboys (edit: and hardcore players to some degree) care about power. Most players just want a working console at the lowest price possible (if you're not convinced, look at the PS4 vs PS4Pro sales).
If only folk here could do the same. I see a lot of "If X does this, Y will lose marketshare".
MS just needs to focus on doing what they can to improve their situation. That doesn't necessitate trying to copy Sony or sap away interest from what Sony is doing well. Just stick to prioritizing what will work best for them.
Remember that Microsoft makes DirextX and DXR has been planned and shared with all GPU makers long before XSX and PS5 was even hinted at
Once again- they would not have, because Microsoft doesn't sell the Xbox in 2/3rds of the market where Sony sells the Playstation.
The US gap between the Xbox and the PS4 is only around 5 millionish (if I recall correctly- MS not releasing official numbers makes this difficult).
The worldwide gap is somewhere closer to 60-70 million units, and is only getting wider.
a 50 dollar price reduction and better PR would not have fixed this.
Having their own event is the key and we know that that's coming in due course. Also let me ask you this DriftingSpirit... If Sony shows concept art for Gravity Rush 3... Not a full trailer just the concept art, are you going to care about the console being $399 or $499?
In fact that's damn near rhetorical because I know Gravity Rush is one of many ip that resonated with you and you wont have much resistance making your preorder asap.
As far as I know, PS4 Pro while not in boost mode downclocks the CPU to 1.6Ghz, turns off half of the CU back to 18 and downclocks the GPU to 800Mhz so the Pro 100% matches the PS4. Then, in boost mode, clocks are allowed to go up but CUs are not turned back on. So in boost mode the Pro is 18CU @911Mhz and the CPU is 2.13Ghz. The reason it works like this is that some games need the exact same clocks or they will have problems, P.T is an example for a game that runs poorly in boost mode. So in boost mode Sony can have a small disclaimer about some games having problems and leave the choice to the gamer.
I would guess that PS5 will do the same. When you run a BC game that doesn't have a Pro patch, it will us 18 CUs @800Mhz and the CPU will shut whatever it needs down (for instance the extra cache Zen 2 has) and downclock to 1.6Ghz. If a game has a Pro patch, it will have 36 active CUs @911Mhz while the CPU will shut down whatever it needs in order to match Jaguar specs and clock itself @2.13Ghz. When you turn on boost mode, on both type of games the GPU will boost to whatever PS5 is clocked at (2Ghz?) and the same goes for the CPU (3.2Ghz?) while the parts that need to be disabled for BC (CPU cache, GPU CUs, ROPS, etc) will still be disabled.
That's my guess on how BC works on PS5 considering the RDNA white paper, the Mark Cerny patent and the way PS4 Pro BC works.
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