• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Heidern

Member
Oct 30, 2017
644
Connecticut
I don't understand the automatic connection between price and power where Sony is concerned. They have sold over a 100 million consoles for 3 out of 4 their home systems. I feel like they can make the deal work to have power and price because of long term sales potential. I expect Sony wants to win all the markets and compete against Series X without having the comparison looking like the on-paper power disparity between Switch and XB1/PS4.
 

Burrman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,633
No, the original leaks from lastbyear originally put it at 12.9. Then Benji said he had heard 13, but deleted his tweet. Next came Reiner and C**** who heard around E3 that the PS5 was stronger than XSX. Next came Schrier who had heard that the consoles were so close, it would basically be a wash. Then came Klee who also stated the PS5 and XSX were similar with PS5 edging it. The whole 9TF rumor didn't start until Komachi and Rogame started posting information about the chips and APU and people in this thread starting coming to their own conclusions which has now made its way to the rest of the internet.
What did Klee ever predict before this? Was he the first to say 12+ TF?
 

Betty

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,604
No, the original leaks from lastbyear originally put it at 12.9. Then Benji said he had heard 13, but deleted his tweet. Next came Reiner and C**** who heard around E3 that the PS5 was stronger than XSX. Next came Schrier who had heard that the consoles were so close, it would basically be a wash. Then came Klee who also stated the PS5 and XSX were similar with PS5 edging it. The whole 9TF rumor didn't start until Komachi and Rogame started posting information about the chips and APU and people in this thread starting coming to their own conclusions which has now made its way to the rest of the internet.

Good summary.

I think most of us won't be shocked if PS5 is 9.2 tf or lower than Xbox.
 

Tribal24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,382
Keep in mind I've been saying I want both to target $500 since day one. However I can't ignore some market realities. So I think there are a few important things to keep in mind:

Both MS and Sony of course want to sell as many consoles as possible but only one is likely to launch two consoles. That said, I think it's safe to say that console sales matters more to Sony than MS since MS is moving in a different direction that puts a bigger focus on users than hardware units sold. In the end, I think we can all agree that Sony will sell more regardless. However, with console sales being more important to them, they likely want to retain as much of their market share as possible. Pitting a $500 console against a $300 Lockhart would work against this goal. So while Sony would sell more in the end no matter what, I think a $500/$300 combo would put a bigger dent in Sony's market share if they came out with just a $500 console. They would have a less attractive option for the more price conscious consumer for an entire generation. However if they launch at $400, they can still provide a very capable machine that would also appeal to a larger market.

I hope none of this happens and we get 2 ~12TF consoles for $500 but it really does make more business sense for Sony to launch at $400.

im with you on this, i'd be fine with a capable device that launches at $400 that would make sense $500 max i can see for both.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,818
I love consoles and I really like power. This past gen, I had no reason to go with XB1 multiplatform games because PS4 was more powerful and had better looking games. Yeah, ultimately 9tf would be fine, but more power is better. I would be more than a little disappointed if there was such a big difference in power between PS5 and Series X. I want the PS5 for the exclusives, but I would like to have the best looking console versions of games or at least where they look just as good as they do on the other system.

Well the good news is that by your own admission you "love consoles" so even if the XBSX ends up having the prettier 3rd party games, you'll just get both and be good :)
 

Expy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,862
What did Klee ever predict before this? Was he the first to say 12+ TF?
He hasn't predicted anything, he just shared what he knew.

But his information fit with the the general insider information we had since the start, and he acknowledged some information as being accurate or inaccurate to his own information when he could.
 

Albert Penello

Verified
Nov 2, 2017
320
Redmond, WA
I see two scenarios from Sony perspective:

1. Aim for 399 and risk being sandwiched by significantly better offering in Series X on one end (potentially loosing people who care about power and all or at least 3rd party purchasing revenue they bring), and on the other hand competing with significantly cheaper machine which will suit customers who just want the cheapest entry.
2. Aim for 499 and risk the same as above (however significantly reduced if the power gap is still in favour of MS). They would be loosing the people who want the cheapest entry regardless.
In my opinion option 2 works better as it is unlikely that many people would be that bothered going from 399 to 499 launch price and like I say people that want the cheapest will go for Lockhart regardless and frankly I don't believe these people are a core demographic to either MS or Sony (no offence)

I think there is an even more obvious 3rd scenario:

3. Sony doesn't care much about what Xbox does. They are going to provide a huge next-generation performance upgrade from the PS4PRO in visuals and performance, at a $399 price that has brought them global share success. They will be the most powerful at their pricepoint, and more importantly it will have a strong cross-generation Back Compat story with PS4, which locks in their existing audience and moves them quickly to their new console with a suite of killer first party exclusives.

I think this is the best of all the options :)

It's not like they are going to have a weak story around specs (SSD, RT, RDNA, Zen, etc.) so the question is if they care about 2.8 tflops.

This of course assumes that Series X isn't also $399. I think in *that* case Sony may have something to worry about.
 
Last edited:

Deusmico

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,254
I think ps5 can have different rt solution. The first time we heard about the prospero devkit was in gizmodo, and they said rt was different afterwards among the 2 consoles
 

Jade1962

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,259
Sony has released:
-PS1
-PS2
-PSP
-PS3
-PS VIta
-PS4
-PS4 Pro

And I'm trying to think: has sony EVER released a system that WASN'T the most powerful major console/handheld at the time of release? PS3 I think is the only one that can be argued, but it CAN be argued that it was most powerful when the Cell processor was properly utilized.

Point being that power is important to Sony; not just sales and price. This could be the first time they've ever come out with the less powerful system (assuming they're both launching around the same time). And maybe they're okay with that. Who knows.

This has always been my thoughts as well. Sony is going to make the most powerful system they can within reason. They have always been known for it and the last time they launched at the same time Ps4 was the most powerful despite all the same talking points being trotted out.

I don't know what the final verdict will be between XSX and PS5 but I can't envision Sony ceding at 25% advantage in console power. XSX may come out more powerful but it will be close.
 

Deleted member 8784

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,502
He said >10 TF for both

I think the first mention of >10 TF came from Jason saying that both Sony and Microsoft were looking to release better systems than what you could get on Stadia.

Edit: not that it honestly matters. I think we'll be more impressed by technology and features more interesting than just bigger numbers.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,818
No, the original leaks from lastbyear originally put it at 12.9. Then Benji said he had heard 13, but deleted his tweet. Next came Reiner and C**** who heard around E3 that the PS5 was stronger than XSX. Next came Schrier who had heard that the consoles were so close, it would basically be a wash. Then came Klee who also stated the PS5 and XSX were similar with PS5 edging it. The whole 9TF rumor didn't start until Komachi and Rogame started posting information about the chips and APU and people in this thread starting coming to their own conclusions which has now made its way to the rest of the internet.

I wish members of the gaming press wouldn't participate in and give life to the power war.
 

Deusmico

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,254
Maybe ps5 will be 449. Close in power to xbxoxsx, close enough that is meaningless...And after a year drop it to 399 for lots of sales for the following years. Even with 449 the first year will be soldout
 

Sprat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,684
England
Mark Cerny also convinced them to create a custom memory interface for the PS Vita. Part of the challenge will be how the system cost reduces over time.


Good analysis. There are a lot of confounding factors however that are difficult to evaluate simultaneously:

  • What is the importance of early adopters and what do those buyers look like?
  • What does the lifetime spend of an early adopter look like vs other buyers?
  • How important are those early adopters to influencing future sales?
  • You can pretty count on selling out the first 4-6 months you are on the market. How fast can you cost reduce after that?
  • Are you prepared to take more of a loss to adjust to the market? You can cut price after launch to adjust to market conditions. You can't bump
You may say I'm placing too much importance on early adopters, but who exactly do you think Sony is catering to putting so much effort into backwards compatibility after mocking those same consumers last gen?
I will be a day one purchaser if its £349 or less I don't care about BC my launch ps3 has it and I used it once or twice for the novelty.

I keep all my old consoles and if I want to play old games I would rather do it on the original hardware.

I also bought the Pro to go with my new TV but power is nothing if the games aren't great which is why I went with Pro over X.

I would much rather have lower power and £349 if its over that I will wait until it drops.
 

Albert Penello

Verified
Nov 2, 2017
320
Redmond, WA

Yeah bad choice. I would say that PS2 had good compat but eventually it was taken out, correct?

And PS3 IIRC was pretty spotty then also taken out after the 2nd year.

PS4 had none at all.

Seems like PS5 will be built to have much better compat with PS4, and less likely to be taken out in later revisions.

So yeah "first" is bad. Probably should word differently so I edited above.
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,827
I think there is an even more obvious 3rd scenario:

3. Sony doesn't care much about what Xbox does. They are going to provide a huge next-generation performance upgrade from the PS4PRO in visuals and performance, at a $399 price that has brought them global share success. They will be the most powerful at their pricepoint, and more importantly it will be the first PlayStation with strong cross-generation Back Compat story, which locks in their existing audience and moves them quickly to their new console with a suite of killer first party exclusives.

I think this is the best of all the options :)

It's not like they are going to have a weak story around specs (SSD, RT, RDNA, Zen, etc.) so the question is if they care about 2.6 tflops.

This of course assumes that Series X isn't also $399. I think in *that* case Sony may have something to worry about.
Yes, agreed. but XSX at $399 to me indicates no need for Lockhart.
 

ManOfWar

Member
Jan 6, 2020
2,472
Brazil
Sony has released:
-PS1
-PS2
-PSP
-PS3
-PS VIta
-PS4
-PS4 Pro

And I'm trying to think: has sony EVER released a system that WASN'T the most powerful major console/handheld at the time of release? PS3 I think is the only one that can be argued, but it CAN be argued that it was most powerful when the Cell processor was properly utilized.

Point being that power is important to Sony; not just sales and price. This could be the first time they've ever come out with the less powerful system (assuming they're both launching around the same time). And maybe they're okay with that. Who knows.

Someone will probably correct me on this, but wasn't the PS2 the weakest of the bunch? GameCube being the most powerful and all and the original Xbox, the One before the One, following closely due to it being basically a PC?
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,126
Keep in mind I've been saying I want both to target $500 since day one. However I can't ignore some market realities. So I think there are a few important things to keep in mind:

Both MS and Sony of course want to sell as many consoles as possible but only one is likely to launch two consoles. That said, I think it's safe to say that console sales matters more to Sony than MS since MS is moving in a different direction that puts a bigger focus on users than hardware units sold. In the end, I think we can all agree that Sony will sell more regardless. However, with console sales being more important to them, they likely want to retain as much of their market share as possible. Pitting a $500 console against a $300 Lockhart would work against this goal. So while Sony would sell more in the end no matter what, I think a $500/$300 combo would put a bigger dent in Sony's market share if they came out with just a $500 console. They would have a less attractive option for the more price conscious consumer for an entire generation. However if they launch at $400, they can still provide a very capable machine that would also appeal to a larger market.

I hope none of this happens and we get 2 ~12TF consoles for $500 but it really does make more business sense for Sony to launch at $400.


People are thinking about this the wrong way .
They want to make as much money as possible in a certain way .
Selling the most consoles is only a part of that along with price.
 

disco_potato

Member
Nov 16, 2017
3,145
I think ps5 can have different rt solution. The first time we heard about the prospero devkit was in gizmodo, and they said rt was different afterwards among the 2 consoles
Yeah, i was reading something about that earlier and it makes more sense now than it did back then. We know XSX is using AMD's rt implementation. With sony, we can't be sure.
 

Screen Looker

Member
Nov 17, 2018
1,963
I think there is an even more obvious 3rd scenario:

3. Sony doesn't care much about what Xbox does. They are going to provide a huge next-generation performance upgrade from the PS4PRO in visuals and performance, at a $399 price that has brought them global share success. They will be the most powerful at their pricepoint, and more importantly it will have a strong cross-generation Back Compat story with PS4, which locks in their existing audience and moves them quickly to their new console with a suite of killer first party exclusives.

I think this is the best of all the options :)

It's not like they are going to have a weak story around specs (SSD, RT, RDNA, Zen, etc.) so the question is if they care about 2.6 tflops.

This of course assumes that Series X isn't also $399. I think in *that* case Sony may have something to worry about.

You speak like you know a thing or two my man... lol :)
 

Jonnax

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,920
How about launching at a higher price but bundling in a year of free Plus / Live?

Something that sweetens the deal.
 

Screen Looker

Member
Nov 17, 2018
1,963
While I think $399 makes sense because they've won there. I still maintain the first part of what Albert said regardless of price point. PS5 is going to be marketed aggressively as the best service/most powerful whatever marketing point they can at whatever price point they choose.

It doesn't completely hinge on what Xbox is doing. Some of you are obsessed with creating a preliminary response, but new generations are where you create the argument not a rebuttal.

How about launching at a higher price but bundling in a year of free Plus / Live?

Something that sweetens the deal.

They're not going to give away a free year of their subscription services. The whole point is to lock people in and get them paying for it sooner. A year is just lost revenue. It doesn't take that long to lock people in.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,818
For people really sold on the idea of BC actually mattering this gen because Sony is finally coming up to speed in that area?

I'm very lazy and dont feel like looking but I seem to remember that when you look at the numbers/data, BC matters to a very small percentage of the user base.

Second, for those excited about BC, are you really excited just to play the same games with no innate improvements? That's what Sony's BC strategy needs to include, IMO. They'll need to match or improve upon what Microsoft has done in that arena.

Edit: a bit old (2017) but you get my point:
 

BitsandBytes

Member
Dec 16, 2017
4,576
I think there is an even more obvious 3rd scenario:

3. Sony doesn't care much about what Xbox does. They are going to provide a huge next-generation performance upgrade from the PS4PRO in visuals and performance, at a $399 price that has brought them global share success. They will be the most powerful at their pricepoint, and more importantly it will have a strong cross-generation Back Compat story with PS4, which locks in their existing audience and moves them quickly to their new console with a suite of killer first party exclusives.

I think this is the best of all the options :)

It's not like they are going to have a weak story around specs (SSD, RT, RDNA, Zen, etc.) so the question is if they care about 2.6 tflops.

This of course assumes that Series X isn't also $399. I think in *that* case Sony may have something to worry about.

source.gif


That's specific! ;)
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
16,002
"at the time of release" doesn't make much sense. What if the ps5 releases a week before the xbox?

As for generation, ps3 (arguable but, come on), ps2, ps1 and pro are all weaker than competitors in the same generation.

I think it's obvious what he means. There was nothing on the market close to the power of a sony console at the time of release.

The PS1 launched in 1994 at $299 ($511.38 in current dollars). It was demonstrably more capable than Sega's Saturn, and completely destroyed the 3D0, CDi, and Jaguar systems. A more powerful console didn't show up until Nintendo released the N64, two years later.

The PS2 launched in March of 2000, also at $299 ($440 in current dollars). It was well past the capabilities of the dreamcast that released one year prior, and a more powerful console did not release until The Xbox hit shelves 15 months later in November of 2001 along with the gamecube.

The PS3 launched a year after the 360 in 2006 at $499/$599 ($634/$761), and a more powerful console didn't show up until the WiiU in 2012.

The PS4 launched in 2013 at $399 ($440.78) and has not yet been exceeded by a console competitor.

The implication is pretty clear. Sony has never gone for a strategy of releasing an inexpensive system below the capabilities of anything on the market within 1.5 years of release, and a $399 PS5 would be BY FAR the cheapest system they ever released...for no good reason. They've been able to crank out blockbusters far above that price point consistently.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,126
This whole thing comes down to people thinking Sony don't need the power to sell systems and $399 is best price point for that.
Sony will sell loads of systems the first year be it $499 or $399 .
The question is what way to make the most money early on and who they going to target .
 

Kyoufu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,582
For people really sold on the idea of BC actually mattering this gen because Sony is finally coming up to speed in that area?

BC has always been nice to have, but it's especially important in the digital age as consumers would still desire access to their digital library which can't even be sold off. I personally own hundreds of digital current gen games that I would not want to lose access to and enhancements to said games will be very welcome.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.