PS5 and Xbox Series speculation launch thread |OT9| - For flops sake!

[saintjules]

Give it a couples of hours and it will smell like dissapointment and false hope.

Click to shrink...

lol, the sad truth.

 

[Miniature Kaiju]

Only way I see Sony going for a small and fast GPU, clocked upwards of 2GHz, is if they were pretty confident that AMD would deliver way better thermals than what we got.

And that takes me to AdoredTV saying that he heard rumors that Navi thermals weren't hitting targets a ways back, before it was launched.

 

[Expy]

Phenomenal Post.

Click to shrink...

Indeed.

 

[TheRealTalker]

new OT
oh yeah

 

[Deleted member 135]

Since you snuck this in at the end of the last OT, figured i'd respond here. There are some reasons NOT to put weight into the Github leak

There are 3 reasons to question the implications of the leaked documents:

1. They are full of mistakes and inaccuracies

• There are files in wrong folders, there are sub folders and wrong folders. Again, when people say these are legitimate, they mean that this is what is legitimately in the files, not that the files are correct or accurate all the time.
• The biggest issue is that they claim Spakrman (Lockhart) is 56CUs. Every reason you have to believe Oberon is PS5, you have to believe that Sparkman is Lockhart. Sparkman BC mode indicates it can replicate a One S.

However confident you are that PS5 is 36 CUs, must must be equally confident that Lockhart is 56CUs. Or the other way around, how ever skeptical you are that these leaks confirm Lockhart is 56CUs, you must be equally skeptical these leaks confirm PS5 is 36CUs.

2. The leaks if taken at face value, fly in the face of every credible insider we have, including develeper sources and industry sources, that say the Series X and PS5 are very close in power.

• We've had Jason Schreier News Editor of Kotaku, Andrew Reiner Executive Editor at Game Informer, Our own Mods, and Vetted industry insider and veteran Klee, and other insiders all say the consoles are close in power.
• They specifically claim PS5 and Scarlett were close in power according to those sources. And All of that is in the same time window these leaks are from, which according to DF is the point where it's too late to make changes. None of them have come out and said the the tables have turned. The Github leaks are new to us, but they are actually older than the leaks we've gotten from insiders.

So, Actual insiders who actually know about the target specs of the PS5 and Xbox Series X (rather than drawing conclusions from indirect and uncontextualized data points) with a network of sources (instead of an interns notepad) are saying something to the contrary of what the leak indicates at face value.

3. The documents, if taken at face value, don't pass the sniff test, and an alternative makes more sense

• The test were done without VRR and RT, when we know that at the very least PS5 has RT. This means that the tests we have access to are not the full PS5 in at least one way.
• 36CUs at 2GHz, is not a reasonable way to hit 9.2TFs, if that's the target. Every bit of historical and contextual data we have for consoles points to a wide and slow approach to console APUs. Efficiencies, Thermals, Cooling Costs, and reliability have all proven to be reasons that trump a lower sized and faster APU. Why would Sony feel any different? What technology would change the equation? I'm not aware of any, so I don't expect that approach to change.
• 36CUs would also make this the smallest APU Sony has made in a decade. In a world where Sony is dominating in terms of sales and profitability, where they've come out and aid that PS5 is going to be Niche product aimed at the hardcore who what the best and latest, where that is corroborated by their rumoured bleeding edge SSD tech, a small APU doesn't make sense.
• Digital Foundry Stated in the article that many BC test are being done. If that's true, this could be a BC test right? Well, what would that look like. Presumably, they would want to test a Native PS4 mode, a PS4 Pro mode, and like the PS4 Pro had.... A PS4 Pro Boost mode. What would the Boost mode test look like?
• A PS4 Pro Boost mode compatibility test would look like this: Exactly the same CUs as the PS4 Pro, An unlocked "full" clock, no RT or VRS hardware activated. What do we have in the leak? 36CUs (exactly the same as the PS4 Pro), 2Ghz, the rumoured full clock of the PS5, No RT and no VRS indicated.

The leaks makes little sense as the Full PS5 hardware, indicating you shouldn't take it as a certainty of the PS5s total performance, and a lot of sense that it's a boost mode PS4 Pro compatibility test so that possibility can't be dismissed.

Click to shrink...

Great post.

 

[RoninStrife]

Since you snuck this in at the end of the last OT, figured i'd respond here. There are some reasons NOT to put weight into the Github leak

There are 3 reasons to question the implications of the leaked documents:

1. They are full of mistakes and inaccuracies

• There are files in wrong folders, there are sub folders and wrong folders. Again, when people say these are legitimate, they mean that this is what is legitimately in the files, not that the files are correct or accurate all the time.
• The biggest issue is that they claim Spakrman (Lockhart) is 56CUs. Every reason you have to believe Oberon is PS5, you have to believe that Sparkman is Lockhart. Sparkman BC mode indicates it can replicate a One S.

However confident you are that PS5 is 36 CUs, must must be equally confident that Lockhart is 56CUs. Or the other way around, how ever skeptical you are that these leaks confirm Lockhart is 56CUs, you must be equally skeptical these leaks confirm PS5 is 36CUs.

2. The leaks if taken at face value, fly in the face of every credible insider we have, including develeper sources and industry sources, that say the Series X and PS5 are very close in power.

• We've had Jason Schreier News Editor of Kotaku, Andrew Reiner Executive Editor at Game Informer, Our own Mods, and Vetted industry insider and veteran Klee, and other insiders all say the consoles are close in power.
• They specifically claim PS5 and Scarlett were close in power according to those sources. And All of that is in the same time window these leaks are from, which according to DF is the point where it's too late to make changes. None of them have come out and said the the tables have turned. The Github leaks are new to us, but they are actually older than the leaks we've gotten from insiders.

So, Actual insiders who actually know about the target specs of the PS5 and Xbox Series X (rather than drawing conclusions from indirect and uncontextualized data points) with a network of sources (instead of an interns notepad) are saying something to the contrary of what the leak indicates at face value.

3. The documents, if taken at face value, don't pass the sniff test, and an alternative makes more sense

• The test were done without VRR and RT, when we know that at the very least PS5 has RT. This means that the tests we have access to are not the full PS5 in at least one way.
• 36CUs at 2GHz, is not a reasonable way to hit 9.2TFs, if that's the target. Every bit of historical and contextual data we have for consoles points to a wide and slow approach to console APUs. Efficiencies, Thermals, Cooling Costs, and reliability have all proven to be reasons that trump a lower sized and faster APU. Why would Sony feel any different? What technology would change the equation? I'm not aware of any, so I don't expect that approach to change.
• 36CUs would also make this the smallest APU Sony has made in a decade. In a world where Sony is dominating in terms of sales and profitability, where they've come out and aid that PS5 is going to be Niche product aimed at the hardcore who what the best and latest, where that is corroborated by their rumoured bleeding edge SSD tech, a small APU doesn't make sense.
• Digital Foundry Stated in the article that many BC test are being done. If that's true, this could be a BC test right? Well, what would that look like. Presumably, they would want to test a Native PS4 mode, a PS4 Pro mode, and like the PS4 Pro had.... A PS4 Pro Boost mode. What would the Boost mode test look like?
• A PS4 Pro Boost mode compatibility test would look like this: Exactly the same CUs as the PS4 Pro, An unlocked "full" clock, no RT or VRS hardware activated. What do we have in the leak? 36CUs (exactly the same as the PS4 Pro), 2Ghz, the rumoured full clock of the PS5, No RT and no VRS indicated.

The leaks makes little sense as the Full PS5 hardware, indicating you shouldn't take it as a certainty of the PS5s total performance, and a lot of sense that it's a boost mode PS4 Pro compatibility test so that possibility can't be dismissed.

Click to shrink...

Jeffram, perfectly said. Great post. And a genuine and real possibility. There may be meltdowns if you are correct, but honestly... your post makes alot of sense.

 

[gnexus]

we're almost to 2020, which means launch year! Wooooo.

 

[VX1]

Only way I see Sony going for a small and fast GPU, clocked upwards of 2GHz, is if they were pretty confident that AMD would deliver way better thermals than what we got.

And that takes me to AdoredTV saying that he heard rumors that Navi thermals weren't hitting targets a ways back, before it was launched.

Click to shrink...

And, as Drkeo said, maybe at some point it was just too late to change their deisgn and they had to proceed with what they had and just raise the clocks...?

 

[Midas]

we're almost to 2020, which means launch year! Wooooo.

Click to shrink...

That's very true. In a couple of hours we can say; "We're getting new consoles this year!"

 

[Betty]

There's going to be a lot more meltdowns if the leak really is the final specs of PS5.

I wish the Playstation meeting was tonight.

 

[thuway]

There's going to be a lot more meltdowns if the leak really is the final specs of PS5.

I wish the Playstation meeting was tonight.

Click to shrink...

Dude cut it out.

 

[HaloForzaGuy]

it wont be just tvs and phones.

Click to shrink...

Sounds like vr

 

[Doctor Avatar]

Since you snuck this in at the end of the last OT, figured i'd respond here. There are some reasons NOT to put weight into the Github leak

There are 3 reasons to question the implications of the leaked documents:

1. They are full of mistakes and inaccuracies

• There are files in wrong folders, there are sub folders and wrong folders. Again, when people say these are legitimate, they mean that this is what is legitimately in the files, not that the files are correct or accurate all the time.
• The biggest issue is that they claim Spakrman (Lockhart) is 56CUs. Every reason you have to believe Oberon is PS5, you have to believe that Sparkman is Lockhart. Sparkman BC mode indicates it can replicate a One S.

However confident you are that PS5 is 36 CUs, must must be equally confident that Lockhart is 56CUs. Or the other way around, how ever skeptical you are that these leaks confirm Lockhart is 56CUs, you must be equally skeptical these leaks confirm PS5 is 36CUs.

2. The leaks if taken at face value, fly in the face of every credible insider we have, including develeper sources and industry sources, that say the Series X and PS5 are very close in power.

• We've had Jason Schreier News Editor of Kotaku, Andrew Reiner Executive Editor at Game Informer, Our own Mods, and Vetted industry insider and veteran Klee, and other insiders all say the consoles are close in power.
• They specifically claim PS5 and Scarlett were close in power according to those sources. And All of that is in the same time window these leaks are from, which according to DF is the point where it's too late to make changes. None of them have come out and said the the tables have turned. The Github leaks are new to us, but they are actually older than the leaks we've gotten from insiders.

So, Actual insiders who actually know about the target specs of the PS5 and Xbox Series X (rather than drawing conclusions from indirect and uncontextualized data points) with a network of sources (instead of an interns notepad) are saying something to the contrary of what the leak indicates at face value.

3. The documents, if taken at face value, don't pass the sniff test, and an alternative makes more sense

• The test were done without VRR and RT, when we know that at the very least PS5 has RT. This means that the tests we have access to are not the full PS5 in at least one way.
• 36CUs at 2GHz, is not a reasonable way to hit 9.2TFs, if that's the target. Every bit of historical and contextual data we have for consoles points to a wide and slow approach to console APUs. Efficiencies, Thermals, Cooling Costs, and reliability have all proven to be reasons that trump a lower sized and faster APU. Why would Sony feel any different? What technology would change the equation? I'm not aware of any, so I don't expect that approach to change.
• 36CUs would also make this the smallest APU Sony has made in a decade. In a world where Sony is dominating in terms of sales and profitability, where they've come out and aid that PS5 is going to be Niche product aimed at the hardcore who what the best and latest, where that is corroborated by their rumoured bleeding edge SSD tech, a small APU doesn't make sense.
• Digital Foundry Stated in the article that many BC test are being done. If that's true, this could be a BC test right? Well, what would that look like. Presumably, they would want to test a Native PS4 mode, a PS4 Pro mode, and like the PS4 Pro had.... A PS4 Pro Boost mode. What would the Boost mode test look like?
• A PS4 Pro Boost mode compatibility test would look like this: Exactly the same CUs as the PS4 Pro, An unlocked "full" clock, no RT or VRS hardware activated. What do we have in the leak? 36CUs (exactly the same as the PS4 Pro), 2Ghz, the rumoured full clock of the PS5, No RT and no VRS indicated.

The leaks makes little sense as the Full PS5 hardware, indicating you shouldn't take it as a certainty of the PS5s total performance, and a lot of sense that it's a boost mode PS4 Pro compatibility test so that possibility can't be dismissed.

Click to shrink...

Yep great post. You will have those secretly hoping for 9TF PS5 throw some thinly veiled insults at people "peddling conspiracy theories etc" but there are plenty of reasons to think there is more to PS5 than a 36CU 2Ghz GPU.

Because such a GPU would be a completely amateurish offering, and a complete engineering failure. It would be well above the sweet spot for perf/watt that you want in an APU.

It's not impossible the Mark Cerny and Sony have completely ballsed up, but I think with statements from Schrier, Reiner, Klee, Moriarty and even our own Matt it's a bit soon to declare the sky is falling.

The super high clocks of Gonzalo and Oberon have never really made any sense for an APU part, in which wide and slow nets you far better performance. We're missing something.

Personally I suspect that Oberon/Flute is the 2019 PS5 - they were far enough down the design process that it was feasible to fab the chips and use them as early PS5 dev kits and for backwards compatibility testing. They're being so highly clocked because perf/watt is basically irrelevant in a dev kit, and will boost the performance to be closer to the final product for development purposes. Hence you get a 36CU 2Ghz part which would be, from what I understand, insanity to put into a mass produced APU.

Or they really are going the insane route and have completely cocked up. We will see.

 

[Deleted member 52190]

And, as Drkeo said, maybe at some point it was just too late to change their deisgn and they had to proceed with what they had and just raise the clocks...?

Click to shrink...

Raise the clocks to what? They expect to raise the clocks past 2ghz to compesate? that is not a very smart plan, why not go for a bigger APU?

 

[isahn]

I bet PUBG will run at +60fps on these beasts (assuming there will be a patch for the next gen consoles)

 

[Crazy_KiD_169]

Since you snuck this in at the end of the last OT, figured i'd respond here. There are some reasons NOT to put weight into the Github leak

There are 3 reasons to question the implications of the leaked documents:

1. They are full of mistakes and inaccuracies

• There are files in wrong folders, there are sub folders and wrong folders. Again, when people say these are legitimate, they mean that this is what is legitimately in the files, not that the files are correct or accurate all the time.
• The biggest issue is that they claim Spakrman (Lockhart) is 56CUs. Every reason you have to believe Oberon is PS5, you have to believe that Sparkman is Lockhart. Sparkman BC mode indicates it can replicate a One S.

However confident you are that PS5 is 36 CUs, must must be equally confident that Lockhart is 56CUs. Or the other way around, how ever skeptical you are that these leaks confirm Lockhart is 56CUs, you must be equally skeptical these leaks confirm PS5 is 36CUs.

2. The leaks if taken at face value, fly in the face of every credible insider we have, including develeper sources and industry sources, that say the Series X and PS5 are very close in power.

• We've had Jason Schreier News Editor of Kotaku, Andrew Reiner Executive Editor at Game Informer, Our own Mods, and Vetted industry insider and veteran Klee, and other insiders all say the consoles are close in power.
• They specifically claim PS5 and Scarlett were close in power according to those sources. And All of that is in the same time window these leaks are from, which according to DF is the point where it's too late to make changes. None of them have come out and said the the tables have turned. The Github leaks are new to us, but they are actually older than the leaks we've gotten from insiders.

So, Actual insiders who actually know about the target specs of the PS5 and Xbox Series X (rather than drawing conclusions from indirect and uncontextualized data points) with a network of sources (instead of an interns notepad) are saying something to the contrary of what the leak indicates at face value.

3. The documents, if taken at face value, don't pass the sniff test, and an alternative makes more sense

• The test were done without VRR and RT, when we know that at the very least PS5 has RT. This means that the tests we have access to are not the full PS5 in at least one way.
• 36CUs at 2GHz, is not a reasonable way to hit 9.2TFs, if that's the target. Every bit of historical and contextual data we have for consoles points to a wide and slow approach to console APUs. Efficiencies, Thermals, Cooling Costs, and reliability have all proven to be reasons that trump a lower sized and faster APU. Why would Sony feel any different? What technology would change the equation? I'm not aware of any, so I don't expect that approach to change.
• 36CUs would also make this the smallest APU Sony has made in a decade. In a world where Sony is dominating in terms of sales and profitability, where they've come out and aid that PS5 is going to be Niche product aimed at the hardcore who what the best and latest, where that is corroborated by their rumoured bleeding edge SSD tech, a small APU doesn't make sense.
• Digital Foundry Stated in the article that many BC test are being done. If that's true, this could be a BC test right? Well, what would that look like. Presumably, they would want to test a Native PS4 mode, a PS4 Pro mode, and like the PS4 Pro had.... A PS4 Pro Boost mode. What would the Boost mode test look like?
• A PS4 Pro Boost mode compatibility test would look like this: Exactly the same CUs as the PS4 Pro, An unlocked "full" clock, no RT or VRS hardware activated. What do we have in the leak? 36CUs (exactly the same as the PS4 Pro), 2Ghz, the rumoured full clock of the PS5, No RT and no VRS indicated.

The leaks makes little sense as the Full PS5 hardware, indicating you shouldn't take it as a certainty of the PS5s total performance, and a lot of sense that it's a boost mode PS4 Pro compatibility test so that possibility can't be dismissed.

Click to shrink...

Great post

 

[Lagspike_exe]

Sounds like vr

Click to shrink...

Agreed.

 

[VX1]

I bet PUBG will run at +60fps on these beasts (assuming there will be a patch for the next gen consoles)

Click to shrink...

Speaking of that and the fact that R* didn't make any patch for Pro and 1X, what are the chances they'll be selling GTA V ultimate edition for PS5 and Next Xbox? Full $60 price? :)

 

[Evodelu]

I bet PUBG will run at +60fps on these beasts (assuming there will be a patch for the next gen consoles)

Click to shrink...

They should easily be able to get it running at 4k60.

 

[Miniature Kaiju]

And, as Drkeo said, maybe at some point it was just too late to change their deisgn and they had to proceed with what they had and just raise the clocks...?

Click to shrink...

Raising the clocks would only make it worse. Consequence of this scenario is that they're either going with lower clocks than expected or worse thermals - bigger case, more expensive cooling.

Still, assuming the target was 12TF+, to put it around Series X, that would've meant aiming for something like 2.6GHz or above, and that's just absurd.

If 9TF was always the target, now they have a console that is drawing 200W+.

As I said before, there's something missing.

 

[Deleted member 10747]

Your wording is literally based on a article in July by a CEO of Sony not the playstation lead which is Jim Ryan. His interview which was done last month comes off different.

Click to shrink...

Yes? It's not like we are talking about some random person. In July they had one strategy and had specific wording, both Cerny and The CEO of Sony. In November Jim Ryan had a interview about lots of stuff and the changes that the Playstation division is going through.

I personally think that people are taking his words out of context. Do you really think that they changed the design of the PS5 in the last 6 months? Either they changed the strategy a lot earlier and the CEO did not know about it and Mark Cerny was being ambiguous for no reason other than why not. Or you know Jim Ryan was talking about lots of stuff and did not mean it the way people are framing it to be.

It's possible as the console evolves and develops that their wording and strat can change. Jim talks about getting people moved over to PS5 at a crazy pace. To me that speaks they expect it to not only sell very well, but also for everyone to move all of their digital libraries over without issue.

That to me says they are more price conscious, will they be $499? Possibly. Could they just eat the cost and sell it at $399, probably

Click to shrink...

Sure and i partly agree. The strategy can change but you can't just magically change the system a year before release. So either they went with a slower TF system at the beginning and this was always the strategy or they went with a stronger system and just the Playstation division strategy changed. Honestly i just don't think that Sony is going to eat more than 100$ loss. Anything more and your kind of setting yourself up for another PS3 situation.

Let's look at what he actually said and in which context he said that.

"100 million is obviously a very notable landmark for any console," he begins. "We've only done it once (lol wrong but okay) before. We have enjoyed good times over this current generation, and when I stand back and look at the things that we've done quite well, we've done a good job of protecting and enhancing our brand. We've done well with exclusive content -- that has been a point-of-difference. But I think the interesting thing this time is the community that we've built.

"These are gamers who are networked and sticky and engaged and passionate about PlayStation to an extent that we've not seen in previous generations. As we move towards the next-generation in 2020, one of our tasks -- probably our main task -- is to take that community and transition it from PlayStation 4 to PlayStation 5, and at a scale and pace that we've never delivered on before.

"One thing that makes me particularly optimistic that what we're hearing from developers and publishers, is the ease in which they are able to get code running on PlayStation 5 is way beyond any experience they've had on any other PlayStation platform."

Click to shrink...

To me it seems that he means that because people have a digital library that the transition is going to be faster because every PS4 game will be playable on the PS5 and that because they have built a far better tool set that developers can and will (Sony's hope )create games at a faster rate. In turn that means that the library will grow at a faster rate than the PS4 and that will have the domino effect of people wanting a PS5 faster.

To me that statement did not mean price point. There are several ways to transition people faster.

You keep talking hardcore yet, your on a site that literally is for those such to discuss these things. Microsoft is making a console that will in terms of it's feature set if they are going that route will be aimed at the enthusiast crowd. PS5 is going to be for them too, but may be more price conscious for mainstream migration over to the new platform.

Click to shrink...

Thank you for telling me on what site i am and with what kind of people I'm talking with. I thought i was at the TOYS-R-US forum, section children toys.

I don't get why you're always bringing up stuff i did not mention or imply i was talking about? If you don't want to discuss things than don't but stop bringing up stuff i did not speak about. You keep twisting my words as i mean people here and not because of what Sony themselves are saying. In the eyes of Sony we are the hardcore on a enthusiast gaming forum. You think that Sony is talking about the casuals when they speak about hardcore and niche? Unless you want to imply that the CEO of Sony knows jack shit perhaps we should still keep his words in our mind and not try to dismiss it because he's "only" the CEO of Sony. A 399 system to me is just a normal system with normal specs for the normal crowd and not one for the niche/hardcore.

I also don't know why you are always bringing up MS like I'm comparing those two. I don't want PS5 to be 13TF+ because of MS but because i want a 4 times PS4 pro system. If MS wants to build a 200TF system good for them, but that wouldn't change my desire for a 13+TF PS5 system. I can get the MS games on the PC so why would i care if they are stronger than Sony. Just because some of you are so invested in companies does not mean i am. This is purely a discussion about PS5!

It's kind of annoying that i have to talk about something that has nothing to do with what i was saying but fine here is my take on it!

MS is indeed going for the hardcore and the price will reflect that. Before you keep inventing things i am saying, i don't mean to say that a 12TF system is base line for hardcore people. Why do you think they want to create a cheaper system? Just for fun or because why not? They know the hardcore will buy it and the mainstream will have a bit of a problem justifying that price point. Hence a 2 system strategy to make it easier for those people. That strategy is meant to get them in their ECO system on both extremes, low and high. It's meant to satisfy both the hardcore and casual people.

LOL the other thread was closed will i was typing all of this far to big text...

PS. I perhaps wont be responding today since well it's already 31 December 17.45 here so yeah I'm going to enjoy real life instead of discussing something so trivial. But i promise i will come back to you on 2nd of January.

Edit: pffffft far to big of a text.......

I want to wish everyone here a great and fantastic new year.

 

[Doctor Avatar]

And, as Drkeo said, maybe at some point it was just too late to change their deisgn and they had to proceed with what they had and just raise the clocks...?

Click to shrink...

The "Cerny shit the bed" scenario.

That could be the case. It just makes the comments from insiders all the more puzzling. Because we have been hearing quite the opposite from multiple independent and verified sources.

 

[Deleted member 59519]

Not going in with any expectations for CES, but I really hope we know when the reveal is by the end of the month.

 

[Patitoloco]

Speaking of that and the fact that R* didn't make any patch for Pro and 1X, what are the chances they'll be selling GTA V ultimate edition for PS5 and Next Xbox? Full $60 price? :)

Click to shrink...

GTAV I'm not sure, but you can bet your ass they will have RDR2 within the first year.

 

[Hybrid Rainbow]

Since you snuck this in at the end of the last OT, figured i'd respond here. There are some reasons NOT to put weight into the Github leak

There are 3 reasons to question the implications of the leaked documents:

1. They are full of mistakes and inaccuracies

• There are files in wrong folders, there are sub folders and wrong folders. Again, when people say these are legitimate, they mean that this is what is legitimately in the files, not that the files are correct or accurate all the time.
• The biggest issue is that they claim Spakrman (Lockhart) is 56CUs. Every reason you have to believe Oberon is PS5, you have to believe that Sparkman is Lockhart. Sparkman BC mode indicates it can replicate a One S.

However confident you are that PS5 is 36 CUs, must must be equally confident that Lockhart is 56CUs. Or the other way around, how ever skeptical you are that these leaks confirm Lockhart is 56CUs, you must be equally skeptical these leaks confirm PS5 is 36CUs.

2. The leaks if taken at face value, fly in the face of every credible insider we have, including develeper sources and industry sources, that say the Series X and PS5 are very close in power.

• We've had Jason Schreier News Editor of Kotaku, Andrew Reiner Executive Editor at Game Informer, Our own Mods, and Vetted industry insider and veteran Klee, and other insiders all say the consoles are close in power.
• They specifically claim PS5 and Scarlett were close in power according to those sources. And All of that is in the same time window these leaks are from, which according to DF is the point where it's too late to make changes. None of them have come out and said the the tables have turned. The Github leaks are new to us, but they are actually older than the leaks we've gotten from insiders.

So, Actual insiders who actually know about the target specs of the PS5 and Xbox Series X (rather than drawing conclusions from indirect and uncontextualized data points) with a network of sources (instead of an interns notepad) are saying something to the contrary of what the leak indicates at face value.

3. The documents, if taken at face value, don't pass the sniff test, and an alternative makes more sense

• The test were done without VRR and RT, when we know that at the very least PS5 has RT. This means that the tests we have access to are not the full PS5 in at least one way.
• 36CUs at 2GHz, is not a reasonable way to hit 9.2TFs, if that's the target. Every bit of historical and contextual data we have for consoles points to a wide and slow approach to console APUs. Efficiencies, Thermals, Cooling Costs, and reliability have all proven to be reasons that trump a lower sized and faster APU. Why would Sony feel any different? What technology would change the equation? I'm not aware of any, so I don't expect that approach to change.
• 36CUs would also make this the smallest APU Sony has made in a decade. In a world where Sony is dominating in terms of sales and profitability, where they've come out and aid that PS5 is going to be Niche product aimed at the hardcore who what the best and latest, where that is corroborated by their rumoured bleeding edge SSD tech, a small APU doesn't make sense.
• Digital Foundry Stated in the article that many BC test are being done. If that's true, this could be a BC test right? Well, what would that look like. Presumably, they would want to test a Native PS4 mode, a PS4 Pro mode, and like the PS4 Pro had.... A PS4 Pro Boost mode. What would the Boost mode test look like?
• A PS4 Pro Boost mode compatibility test would look like this: Exactly the same CUs as the PS4 Pro, An unlocked "full" clock, no RT or VRS hardware activated. What do we have in the leak? 36CUs (exactly the same as the PS4 Pro), 2Ghz, the rumoured full clock of the PS5, No RT and no VRS indicated.

The leaks makes little sense as the Full PS5 hardware, indicating you shouldn't take it as a certainty of the PS5s total performance, and a lot of sense that it's a boost mode PS4 Pro compatibility test so that possibility can't be dismissed.

Click to shrink...

Phenomenal post. This should be threadmarked.

 

[Dictator]

Just some speculation to align the AMD leak with other discussion: the dev kit with the rather large V Fans is cooling the 2.0 ghz gpu, hence it's size and shape. It is 7nm tapeout.

Final retail unit will be 7nm+ and maintain those clocks or similar clocks with more normalised thermals and have a more normalised design. But that is me just saying words.

 

[VX1]

Raising the clocks would only make it worse. Consequence of this scenario is that they're either going with lower clocks than expected or worse thermals - bigger case, more expensive cooling.

Still, assuming the target was 12TF+, to put it around Series X, that would've meant aiming for something like 2.6GHz or above, and that's just absurd.

As I said before, there's something missing.

Click to shrink...

Well yeah, but we have to assume Sony aimed from the start at ~12TF PS5...

 

[Kolx]

Personally I believe the leak is legit as in this's the PS5 we're getting except at maybe a lower clock speed. If more then I'd be happily surprised, if not then I won't be disappointed.

 

[saintjules]

Just some speculation to align the AMD leak with other discussion: the dev kit with the rather large V Fans is cooling the 2.0 ghz gpu, hence it's size and shape. It is 7nm tapeout.

Final retail unit will be 7nm+ and maintain those clocks or similar clocks with more normalised thermals and have a more normalised design. But that is me just saying words.

Click to shrink...

I'd ride along that speculation. 7nm+ is due in the later half of 2020 right?

 

[VX1]

Just some speculation to align the AMD leak with other discussion: the dev kit with the rather large V Fans is cooling the 2.0 ghz gpu, hence it's size and shape. It is 7nm tapeout.

Final retail unit will be 7nm+ and maintain those clocks or similar clocks with more normalised thermals and have a more normalised design. But that is me just saying words.

Click to shrink...

Interesting. DukeBlueBall ,what do you make of this?

 

[BitsandBytes]

As I said before, there's something missing.

Click to shrink...

I agree with this. I just can't put my finger on what.....

 

[PopcornMegaphone]

Since you snuck this in at the end of the last OT, figured i'd respond here. There are some reasons NOT to put weight into the Github leak

There are 3 reasons to question the implications of the leaked documents:

1. They are full of mistakes and inaccuracies

• There are files in wrong folders, there are sub folders and wrong folders. Again, when people say these are legitimate, they mean that this is what is legitimately in the files, not that the files are correct or accurate all the time.
• The biggest issue is that they claim Spakrman (Lockhart) is 56CUs. Every reason you have to believe Oberon is PS5, you have to believe that Sparkman is Lockhart. Sparkman BC mode indicates it can replicate a One S.

However confident you are that PS5 is 36 CUs, must must be equally confident that Lockhart is 56CUs. Or the other way around, how ever skeptical you are that these leaks confirm Lockhart is 56CUs, you must be equally skeptical these leaks confirm PS5 is 36CUs.

2. The leaks if taken at face value, fly in the face of every credible insider we have, including develeper sources and industry sources, that say the Series X and PS5 are very close in power.

• We've had Jason Schreier News Editor of Kotaku, Andrew Reiner Executive Editor at Game Informer, Our own Mods, and Vetted industry insider and veteran Klee, and other insiders all say the consoles are close in power.
• They specifically claim PS5 and Scarlett were close in power according to those sources. And All of that is in the same time window these leaks are from, which according to DF is the point where it's too late to make changes. None of them have come out and said the the tables have turned. The Github leaks are new to us, but they are actually older than the leaks we've gotten from insiders.

So, Actual insiders who actually know about the target specs of the PS5 and Xbox Series X (rather than drawing conclusions from indirect and uncontextualized data points) with a network of sources (instead of an interns notepad) are saying something to the contrary of what the leak indicates at face value.

3. The documents, if taken at face value, don't pass the sniff test, and an alternative makes more sense

• The test were done without VRR and RT, when we know that at the very least PS5 has RT. This means that the tests we have access to are not the full PS5 in at least one way.
• 36CUs at 2GHz, is not a reasonable way to hit 9.2TFs, if that's the target. Every bit of historical and contextual data we have for consoles points to a wide and slow approach to console APUs. Efficiencies, Thermals, Cooling Costs, and reliability have all proven to be reasons that trump a lower sized and faster APU. Why would Sony feel any different? What technology would change the equation? I'm not aware of any, so I don't expect that approach to change.
• 36CUs would also make this the smallest APU Sony has made in a decade. In a world where Sony is dominating in terms of sales and profitability, where they've come out and aid that PS5 is going to be Niche product aimed at the hardcore who what the best and latest, where that is corroborated by their rumoured bleeding edge SSD tech, a small APU doesn't make sense.
• Digital Foundry Stated in the article that many BC test are being done. If that's true, this could be a BC test right? Well, what would that look like. Presumably, they would want to test a Native PS4 mode, a PS4 Pro mode, and like the PS4 Pro had.... A PS4 Pro Boost mode. What would the Boost mode test look like?
• A PS4 Pro Boost mode compatibility test would look like this: Exactly the same CUs as the PS4 Pro, An unlocked "full" clock, no RT or VRS hardware activated. What do we have in the leak? 36CUs (exactly the same as the PS4 Pro), 2Ghz, the rumoured full clock of the PS5, No RT and no VRS indicated.

The leaks makes little sense as the Full PS5 hardware, indicating you shouldn't take it as a certainty of the PS5s total performance, and a lot of sense that it's a boost mode PS4 Pro compatibility test so that possibility can't be dismissed.

Click to shrink...

Have you ever had Deja Vu?

 

[Deleted member 1589]

I meant it when I say that for the last 6 months we might have based our speculations on those mess of files by an intern.

Check out the dates when Komachi_Ensaka & Tum_Apisak leaked Gonzalo & Flute benchmark tests; June and July respectively. Around the period of the github uploads and tests done. Probably the same interns that did the regression tests.

 

[RoninStrife]

if extra CUs caused BC problems than the Pro would have been 18 CUs at 1600 mhz with a BC mode that downclocked to 800 mhz.

disabling CUs isnt really that hard. every console ships with disabled CUs.

whats next? PS5 Pro will have 36 CUs at 4.0 ghz?

PS6 will have 36 CUs at 8.0 ghz?

Click to shrink...

The thing is... Cerny does have a patent attached to his name for disabling CU's for running game applications for legacy machines on faster hardware (I think), but we cant necessarily tie any patent to how they may choose to handle BC.
In the end... we just dont know.

 

[Hybrid Rainbow]

Have you ever had Deja Vu?

Click to shrink...

Jeez. Shows how much people pay attention when it's not something they want to read.

 

[TheLoCoRaven]

Just out of curiosity . . . what makes a thread end and a new one begin? Is there a comment/page limit or something?

 

[Patitoloco]

Just out of curiosity . . . what makes a thread end and a new one begin? Is there a comment/page limit or something?

Click to shrink...

Yes, there's a limit. It's not a hard limit, I think it's discussed with the mods.

 

[PopcornMegaphone]

Jeez. Shows how much people pay attention when it's not something they want to read.

Click to shrink...

To be clear - what don't I want to read? Why would I want to pay attention to something I don't want to read (yet still read it).

 

[Doctor Avatar]

Just some speculation to align the AMD leak with other discussion: the dev kit with the rather large V Fans is cooling the 2.0 ghz gpu, hence it's size and shape. It is 7nm tapeout.

Final retail unit will be 7nm+ and maintain those clocks or similar clocks with more normalised thermals and have a more normalised design. But that is me just saying words.

Click to shrink...

Yet we have it on good authority that XSX is 7nm. Bizarre that Sony have a node advantage over MS yet still put out an inferior chip.

Would a 7nm taped out chip be able to be manufactured on 7nm+? I was under the understanding that the process nodes were incompatible?

And even on 7nm+ wouldn't a wider and slower GPU design still outperform a narrow and fast one in perf/watt?

Narrow/fast has never made any sense for an APU. PS5 design would be a complete outlier/anomaly if this is the case. People have been very confused about the high clock speeds of gonzalo/oberon/flute from day one because of this.

 

[bsigg]

Yes, there's a limit

Click to shrink...

It's arbitrary at this point but it's something that was carried over from the GAF days.

 

[Wace]

OT 10 will be "CES la vie, Sony!"

 

[zedox]

There's going to be a lot more meltdowns if the leak really is the final specs of PS5.

I wish the Playstation meeting was tonight.

Click to shrink...

Yea, meltdowns would occur...I think it's already gotten too ridiculous though. Can't wait until we get the specs and can see games so the specs wont be worth shit...

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Since you snuck this in at the end of the last OT, figured i'd respond here. There are some reasons NOT to put weight into the Github leak

There are 3 reasons to question the implications of the leaked documents:

1. They are full of mistakes and inaccuracies

• There are files in wrong folders, there are sub folders and wrong folders. Again, when people say these are legitimate, they mean that this is what is legitimately in the files, not that the files are correct or accurate all the time.
• The biggest issue is that they claim Spakrman (Lockhart) is 56CUs. Every reason you have to believe Oberon is PS5, you have to believe that Sparkman is Lockhart. Sparkman BC mode indicates it can replicate a One S.

However confident you are that PS5 is 36 CUs, must must be equally confident that Lockhart is 56CUs. Or the other way around, how ever skeptical you are that these leaks confirm Lockhart is 56CUs, you must be equally skeptical these leaks confirm PS5 is 36CUs.

2. The leaks if taken at face value, fly in the face of every credible insider we have, including develeper sources and industry sources, that say the Series X and PS5 are very close in power.

• We've had Jason Schreier News Editor of Kotaku, Andrew Reiner Executive Editor at Game Informer, Our own Mods, and Vetted industry insider and veteran Klee, and other insiders all say the consoles are close in power.
• They specifically claim PS5 and Scarlett were close in power according to those sources. And All of that is in the same time window these leaks are from, which according to DF is the point where it's too late to make changes. None of them have come out and said the the tables have turned. The Github leaks are new to us, but they are actually older than the leaks we've gotten from insiders.

So, Actual insiders who actually know about the target specs of the PS5 and Xbox Series X (rather than drawing conclusions from indirect and uncontextualized data points) with a network of sources (instead of an interns notepad) are saying something to the contrary of what the leak indicates at face value.

3. The documents, if taken at face value, don't pass the sniff test, and an alternative makes more sense

• The test were done without VRR and RT, when we know that at the very least PS5 has RT. This means that the tests we have access to are not the full PS5 in at least one way.
• 36CUs at 2GHz, is not a reasonable way to hit 9.2TFs, if that's the target. Every bit of historical and contextual data we have for consoles points to a wide and slow approach to console APUs. Efficiencies, Thermals, Cooling Costs, and reliability have all proven to be reasons that trump a lower sized and faster APU. Why would Sony feel any different? What technology would change the equation? I'm not aware of any, so I don't expect that approach to change.
• 36CUs would also make this the smallest APU Sony has made in a decade. In a world where Sony is dominating in terms of sales and profitability, where they've come out and aid that PS5 is going to be Niche product aimed at the hardcore who what the best and latest, where that is corroborated by their rumoured bleeding edge SSD tech, a small APU doesn't make sense.
• Digital Foundry Stated in the article that many BC test are being done. If that's true, this could be a BC test right? Well, what would that look like. Presumably, they would want to test a Native PS4 mode, a PS4 Pro mode, and like the PS4 Pro had.... A PS4 Pro Boost mode. What would the Boost mode test look like?
• A PS4 Pro Boost mode compatibility test would look like this: Exactly the same CUs as the PS4 Pro, An unlocked "full" clock, no RT or VRS hardware activated. What do we have in the leak? 36CUs (exactly the same as the PS4 Pro), 2Ghz, the rumoured full clock of the PS5, No RT and no VRS indicated.

The leaks makes little sense as the Full PS5 hardware, indicating you shouldn't take it as a certainty of the PS5s total performance, and a lot of sense that it's a boost mode PS4 Pro compatibility test so that possibility can't be dismissed.

Click to shrink...

A very reasonable and well written summary of the main counter argument.

 

[Bunzy]

The only way this thing has a 36cu gpu is if it has two 36cu gpu's running tandem. No way Sony is producing a 2.0ghz 36cu when history shows that's not Sony's way.

It ain't happening. On the plus side this means we really are in the dark and the reveal is very close, potentially next week!! I'm hyped as hell to see some actual ps5 specs.

 

[Evodelu]

I meant it when I say that for the last 6 months we might have based our speculations on those mess of files by an intern.

Check out the dates when Komachi_Ensaka & Tum_Apisak leaked Gonzalo & Flute benchmark tests; June and July respectively. Around the period of the github uploads and tests done. Probably the same interns that did the regression tests.

Click to shrink...

Would AMD really leave testing of high profile semi-custom silicon to an intern?

 

[III-V]

Just some speculation to align the AMD leak with other discussion: the dev kit with the rather large V Fans is cooling the 2.0 ghz gpu, hence it's size and shape. It is 7nm tapeout.

Final retail unit will be 7nm+ and maintain those clocks or similar clocks with more normalised thermals and have a more normalised design. But that is me just saying words.

Click to shrink...

What does just saying words mean, in that you are not stating this as fact? I would presume so, along with everyone else.

7nm+ I am not sure but possibly N7P. We have not seen good yields from TSMC in 7nm+ yet is what I understand, also could be very costly to redesign masks, etc. but it would be great no doubt and fix any thermal concerns theoretically.

 

[Dashful]

Raytracing makes WatchDogs Legion look next-level. Holy Frappuccino. My interest wasn't that high but I'll consider buying it

Click to shrink...

Where? I want to see!

 

[zedox]

Would AMD really leave testing of high profile semi-custom silicon to an intern?

Click to shrink...

yes, under some guidance...which interns always are. It's cheap labor.

 

[Deleted member 1589]

Would AMD really leave testing of high profile semi-custom silicon to an intern?

Click to shrink...

would an intern who backed up files containing high profile SoC details on a github and left it open might do something as stupid as benchmarking said chips without making sure the tests wouldnt be found.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Raising the clocks would only make it worse. Consequence of this scenario is that they're either going with lower clocks than expected or worse thermals - bigger case, more expensive cooling.

Still, assuming the target was 12TF+, to put it around Series X, that would've meant aiming for something like 2.6GHz or above, and that's just absurd.

If 9TF was always the target, now they have a console that is drawing 200W+.

As I said before, there's something missing.

Click to shrink...

This whole thing base on some people thinking that was Sony targeting $399 in 2019.
They end up getting delay and found out about MS specs so they had to raise the clocks to a insane amount and it was to late to change hardware.
So they either get caught off guard or fuck up because of there early plan.

 

[Patitoloco]

Where? I want to see!

Click to shrink...

I personally don't think it looks THAT great. It's impressive, nevertheless.