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Protests in Philadelphia over police shooting Walter Wallace Jr.
- Thread starter Mekanos
- Start date
It means that funding would go to mental health responders, and the trigger happy, washed up jocks wouldn't even have been there.
Incidentally, here's an actual trained police force safely handling a man with a machete and not murdering him. That's how it's done.
That's not what "defund the police" means at all.
In this case, Walter Wallace would've been visited by mental health specialists and (unarmed) descalation specialists, not a bunch of hooligans with a badge and a gun.
Police could get *more* training, but also get used less often and only for cases where they're needed (and also have to face public accountability). That puts less of a stress on the police to do everything — most of which they're not equipped/trained/capable of handling — and improves outcomes for the community.
So instead of murdering over 1,000 Americans a year, as they currently do, American police might only kill a number a lot, lot closer to 0. That's a separate discussion though.
Another killing by afraid (not really, just murderous) cops. What is it going to take for the entire country to get on board with creating a system to hold police accountable and help them actually be helpful to us?
It's still a budget cut to the police if the funds are reallocated, but ultimately, I agree that the police shouldn't be the first and only option in situations like this. My original post was only to show that it's not as simple as tasing people with knives or "shooting them in the legs".
The solution is someone else more qualified should be there, but there still needs to be a police presence in case the situation goes sideways.
This is a situation where the bola wrap would have saved a life: you don't need to be a marksman to get someone's legs, or even arms and torso, to prevent an armed and non compliant person approaching and neutralise them as a threat - once you're inside twenty feet or so with a knife and won't drop it the police essentially have a green light to shoot.
Tasers are a good but not a perfect solution and more needs to be done to expand the availability and use of non lethal alternatives.
Tasers are a good but not a perfect solution and more needs to be done to expand the availability and use of non lethal alternatives.
If they can't shoot someone in the leg, then maybe they shouldn't shoot them at all?
So what you want them to do when someone with a knife is lunging at them? Tackle them? Tase them?
Use one of many hand-to-hand techniques to disarm them? If someone can't do something like that, they shouldn't be a cop.
not defending anyone here but all cops around the world are trained to shoot center mass. Not the leg not the arm.
And I will respond to you the same way, so what? Maybe that's a sign they're trained poorly.
I love near philly and I saw the vid. Nothing will happen because they have an out however cops need better training to deal with situations
There is no reason to pull the trigger, even once unless you plan to kill what you are pointing at. So once you shoot, it doesn't matter how many times you shoot because you have to mean to expire the target. (This is the thinking)
Non-lethal response is has to become the standard not the exception and police thinking has to be converted, from the top down and then back up.
The process is broken. Sending cops alone to handle domestic abuse is absurd. Also, using a gun as a de-escalation tool is also absurd when the defendant only has a knife or other melee weapon is nonsense.
Restructuring to add other first responders of a more qualified nature is the only way.
There was definitely a knife. This happened 3 blocks from me. I went to my old block to get my brakes done. Fucking tragic.
If you want cops to be better at that, you have to invest in them more. Training takes time, time is money, etc. I know a cop who I believe to this day never drew a gun (and is now an instructor for my county), but he took the time out of his own interest to do MMA etc. He had multiple people try and fight him when being placed under arrest, and he subdued/cuffed them by hand - no guns, tasers, etc. He's an extreme outlier. I'm sure he got some discount to learn all the different fighting styles he went through, but he did it all on his own time, out of pocket. I know some cops have crazy overtime, but in his scenario he is by no means making good money (or at least wasn't then). Advanced fighting classes are, for many people here, a luxury that only well-off people with high paying white collar jobs can afford. Generally nobody is in it as a career.
We should invest in them more? Are you fucking kidding me? Police budgets have been exorbitant and out of control for decades. If they can find the cash to buy MRAPs and grenade launchers, they can afford non-lethal confrontation and de-escalation training.
This is far from true. I've taken BJJ, Muay Thai, and Boxing for years with very little money. BJJ gyms, outside of franchised ones, are pretty lenient on prices. Now, that doesn't mean people don't have unrealistic expectations for what one can actually do hand to hand.
Police need to be taught to de-escalate. Showing up with their hand on their gun automatically escalates things.
Police need to stop murdering Black people. They need to be held accountable.
Look, there's a million ways cops could be better trained at de-escalation tactics and non-confrontational/non-lethal uses of force.
But... shooting the legs and disarming knives with hand-to-hand techniques is some John Wick movie fantasy bullshit.
Seems odd cops are so willing to mace peaceful protestors but don't even attempt to use it in a situation like this.
But that is not how it fucking works.
Police get budgets of billions of dollars a year. You see where it doesn't go. It doesn't go to deescalation training. It doesn't go to mental health response training. It doesn't go to restorative justice management. It doesn't go to anything in any real contribution to change the system. And as long as people are cool with folks getting killed by police, nothing will change.
Exactly. It never goes to any of the things that it actually needs to go to. And people are okay with that.
You said you want more training. Not all police departments get that stuff.
In terms of cost, I was speaking of where I live. I don't know for you.
Yes, police need to be taught to de-escalate, handle crisis/panic situations differently, etc. AKA more training.
Agreed - accountability would be great.
Shooting someone in the leg is movie bullshit? Thousands of years of unarmed vs. armed combat hasn't produced any sort of disarmament technique that is usable in the field?
I guess the few times they accidentally shoot each other?
And neither of those sentences have anything to do with each other, or invalidate my point!
Oh well, then I guess we should just let cops shoot with abandon, as it seems there are no alternatives!
Edit: Why the fuck am I debating an alt?
More training doesn't do much without the rest of defund the police demands though.
Cops seem to have no problem de-escalating white people who have fucking guns. They shoot black people by design.
No one is telling you there are no alternatives.
Only that your alternatives are an unrealistic fantasy not worth being discussed.
And I guess we're post count shaming now? Cool, cool.
You can cut the bloated budgets and still have plenty of funds for advanced, effective training if the overall number of police are reduced. If the police force is altered from what is basically a standing army to groups of small rapid response forces (like far less armed SWAT) to back up the first-line responders that have the de-escalation, social work, and mental health training.
You could divide up the literal MILLIONS of dollars equally amongst vital social programs while ensuring that police are actually highly trained for a specific task, instead of using them as a large, blunt, ineffective catch-all like they are now.
You could divide up the literal MILLIONS of dollars equally amongst vital social programs while ensuring that police are actually highly trained for a specific task, instead of using them as a large, blunt, ineffective catch-all like they are now.
This is true. It's why time and time again we see that simply adding or changing training doesn't do anything.
Yes it is movie bullshit (its already hard to shoot a moving target, aiming for a leg is unrealistic and has the potential to hit bystanders) but it is also not the point.
The gun should not be used unless you intend to kill the target, period. What has to happen is cops have to not react out of fear and they have to be prepared to use all other reasonable means at their disposable BEFORE discharging a firearm. My man did not have to die because cops are untrained or the city can afford taser guns for every officer. (Not enough money to give every cop a taser and training in The City of Philadelphia)
It a whole fuckin mess.
And we just hit 400 murders for the year.
I'm 100% on team fuck cops, but you can't just "disarm someone with hand to hand techniques" lunging with a knife easily, even with the training to do so. A knife is one of the most difficult, if not the most difficult things to defend against IRL, the stuff you see in fictional media or "knife takedown defense" where the guy/lady knows exactly what his/her training partner is going to do aren't representative of a real knife attack.
If someone closes distance with you into striking range they can just stab wildly with zero training and because the angles and speed of the attacks are too unpredictable, you WILL be getting cut in the process of trying to stop the person, even if you successfully take them down. Which is the reason that police (all over the world) are told to shoot center mass if someone comes at them with a bladed weapon.
Mm... Then I'm being silly. Now, someone earlier in the thread said bolas, and that sounds much more practical. The best case scenario in any case would be zero lethality on the cops' part.
I'll concede that I'm wrong when it comes to shooting people in the legs. Oh well!
They know how to do their job. Part of their job though is to shoot black people and they do that really well.
Fuck all pigs. Fuck all people who support pigs. And fuck ya'll with family members or friends as pigs that defend them especially.
Says everything about you.
Says everything about you.
You'll see how effective their training is when it comes to stopping mass protests and riots.
True. The training works the way it's intended to: Treating the community like an enemy combatant and killing Black people.
And the truly sad and disgusting part is most of the people agree with it.
I don't see you proposing anything, person who seemed to appear out of nowhere for the sole purpose of arguing.
Fuck every last cop, but we really need to get past these cringe ideas that even well-trained cops could target limbs with their bullets, or be expected to neutralize a machete attack with CQC. This is embarrassing.
Yeah. For example, another image of the damage of the Reagan/Third Way Dem years:
And as we've just hoisted tax dollars upon law enforcement, there's always been the same excuse through the decades since at least Nixon: police departments are under budget and they just need the funds to become better trained, better prepared, and better educated because now they're getting paid bigger bucks and in control of military-grade hardware.
Hasn't worked out at all these last 50 years and it's never going to work out. How many more bodies and stolen capital until we admit that we fucked up, and a 180 is needed.
Time for some bold moves instead of further complicity in strengthening a fascist and racist organization, with their victims footing most of the bill.
User Banned (2 Months): Condescending and dismissive commentary towards a minority member in a sensitive thread; numerous prior bans for hostility.
Sickening.
The amount of money I would give if cynical wokes would read more than headlines and tweets.
The amount of money I would give if cynical wokes would read more than headlines and tweets.
No worries. It's not that you're being silly because your point is still very much valid. Cops don't have the right to kill folks without exhausting all other reasonable means, if ever.