The arguments against unions tend to sound suspiciously similar to arguments against vaccines (e.g. "things are fine without them", disregarding that "things" are how they are precisely because of "them"), and are about as legitimate.
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
The arguments against unions tend to sound suspiciously similar to arguments against vaccines (e.g. "things are fine without them", disregarding that "things" are how they are precisely because of "them"), and are about as legitimate.
Sadly so many lies and propaganda has been spread, especially in the usa, about unions that people don't see why they're a good thing and are the only way that workers would get more rights in the usa. If unions were everywhere then you could bet your ass Americans would find that they can actually have some mandated paid time off like every other developed nation, or better pay and terms for their jobs.
I always say to people who repeat propaganda about unions, "if they're such a bad thing for workers to have, why do the higher ups at companies always go to such extremes to try and stop them forming?" And the simple answer is "because the people running companies know that unions would force them to actually treat their workforce like human beings and give them the workers rights they deserve"
After seeing what happened for the progression of Gay Marriage when we had a President 'evolve' on the issue, I certainly think it matters. Alot.
Honestly it's not.
Joe's gift is that he says all the right things that he never has to follow up with action. He openly supported gay marriage before even Obama. Did he have to do anything to follow up on that? Nope. That was free. If it was unpopular to say he gets to chalk it up as a Biden gaffe.
It helps that a president is verbally supporting unionization, but he's still trying to push Neera Tanden, a known union buster, through confirmation. What he says is free. Let's see what he follows through with action.
Let's hope it's just as effective. Though it might be harder to push through the public if unions would "hurt" the same big companies that were all for gay marriage when it passed.
But why?
These are pretty good words (and they're infinitely better than silence), but they aren't accompanying any executive action, legislation proposals, or anything at all, really, so they are naturally immaterial—and unions are fundamentally about the material.
Anyone expecting a huge reaction to an elected official saying "Workers are allowed to join unions if they want... k bye," deeply misunderstands the labor movement.
I think this is fair. TBH, to me, his statement feels like the equivalent of "I believe everyone should have access to healthcare" instead of "healthcare is a human right" or, you know, giving everyone healthcare. It's a nice message that is still safe and far removed from action.
The whining in this thread that we are 👏 not 👏 praising 👏 Joe 👏 enough is really weird, too.
Which makes the Tanden appointment even more confusing/frustrating. It's almost as if she was nominated specifically to check Sanders as he'd have to report directly to her to receive ethics approvals for any budgetary proposals (which is hilarious considering her massive conflicts of interest in receiving money from foreign powers.)
Certainly better than nothing, but I was hoping for more harsh wording than "don't interfere" to Amazon, considering how bad faith and manipulative their tactics are. A firm stance on this kind of behavior is needed.
I've noticed negative actions under the Biden administration going overlooked as well, such as the report on the killing of Jamal Khashoggi.
I've noticed negative actions under the Biden administration going overlooked as well, such as the report on the killing of Jamal Khashoggi.
It's really not. Her views on unions don't have to do with the job she was hired for.
I've seen conflicting reports on that and I'm not sure what to think yet.
Sure, but my point was that that thread has much less attention, so whatever TheHunter was getting at doesn't make any sense.
I've read from several people who know what they're talking about that she is so I don't know where you are.
Besides that she's anti-austerity, which is needed in OMB.
Words are not actions, but words matter. As evidenced by the last four years. This is a really strong statement by Biden, one that I'm honestly shocked to hear. This is a definite much-needed shot in the arm to the labor movement. I hope the DoJ will also get tougher on companies who try to subvert union organizing.
Anti-austerity? Who the hell told you that?
She's literally the blueprint of a corporatist center-right Democrat. She even suggested we take Syria's oil as repayment for "protecting them." She is one of the worst of Hillary's proposed administration and has no place in any position of power in a progressive administration focused on unity and reconciliation.
I know about the jpeg that's been floating around Twitter everywhere. I'd read she'd taken a left turn on deficits in recent years but on that detail I could be mistaken.
When Bill Kristol is backing your nomination, perhaps you shouldn't be in charge of anything.
This is the stuff that Biden needs to focus more on. I have been with a union for a total of 14 years and the feeling of having to only work one job, full dental / health benefits, pto and a 401k as a person that works in food and beverage is such an amazing feeling.
Again, here's an article from Neera Tanden about her opinions - https://democracyjournal.org/magazine/a-new-social-contract-for-the-21st-century/
In which she supports a UHC system w/ a strong public option open to anyone, paid & sick leave, a National Health Service Corps, and heavy investment in renewal jobs. Yes, Neera had some shittier opinions before. Welcome to politics. Not everybody comes out of the womb with the "correct" ideas. After all, some Presidential candidates even said open borders were a Koch brothers proposal, opposed DOMA based on state's rights instead of being loud for gay rights, and voted for the '94 crime bill.
The most important thing for an OMB director after all isn't their personal beliefs, but how'd they score bills. Everything Neera has said since 2016 shows that she'd score welfare expansion bills positively. I'm no Tanden fanboy, so I don't really care who's in charge as long as they'll score things well, I just think the actual reality is a Sperling & Tanden OMB reign wouldn't be much different, especially since it's not like Sperling has been always great on economic matters either, but like Tanden, he's moved to the left over the past few years looking at the evidence.
The actual reality is Neera would be the most left-wing OMB director probably since LBJ (or more accurately, probably Nixon). Hopefully, Neera stepping down doesn't lead us to somebody being named to the position like Bruce Reed, who actually still is talking positively in 2020 about welfare reform, unlike Tanden.
I don't really care about Tanden either way but there's been some pushback on the union-busting accusation:
I'm not 100% on the details of this but if all the unionised workers were transferred to another unionised publication then that doesn't sound like union busting to me? There was also several apparently-peaceful years between the union being formed and Think Progress being shut down due to lack of funding.
Regardless, it's great that Biden came out with a statement of support for unions. Tone at the top matters.
I'm not 100% on the details of this but if all the unionised workers were transferred to another unionised publication then that doesn't sound like union busting to me? There was also several apparently-peaceful years between the union being formed and Think Progress being shut down due to lack of funding.
Regardless, it's great that Biden came out with a statement of support for unions. Tone at the top matters.
I always laugh when I see the Amazon advert about we don't just talk, we do things to make a difference. Saying they've donated 12 million meals to people in need. Half of those are probably for your warehouse workers.
Huh, I'm surprised to learn that FDR didn't make stronger statements about unions back in his time. Biden's message here is great, but I didn't realize that it's THAT rare.
It's sad how demonized unions are. Especially teachers unions. Sure, there are some assholes, but that's also true of... everything. Ever.
It's sad how demonized unions are. Especially teachers unions. Sure, there are some assholes, but that's also true of... everything. Ever.
Its been reported many times that it was Biden was who changed Obama's mind, and pushed Obama on same sex marriage.
So yes, he has followed up.
This is a weird statement. Obama supporting the UFCW and urging people to vote for him and unionization is a big reason why workers in the Smithfield Pork Packing plants in NC voted in the union. They were going through the same type of "unions will just take your money and make things worse" conditioning on the job as Amazon employees now. When I was getting people registered to vote I was also passing out UFCW pamphlets and attended a speech where he spoke about it. The speech was played on the radio in an ad up until the presidential election.
Smithfield Wins a Union after 16-Year Struggle
Forging a historic win for labor in the notoriously anti-union South, workers at the nation’s largest hog slaughterhouse won a 16-year battle to unionize their plant in December. . . .
labornotes.org
I need to ask, and it is a genuine question. I need to preface that I am not against unions at all, In fact, join them if there's a benefit.
As a tech worker, specifically software engineering, I already have a top notch salary, amazing benefits, very ample PTO (as in 25 days), and I am absolutely not over worked. Rarely do we get spikes of workload. Hell I only work four days a week, I have three day weekends every time. How would joining a union benefit me in this case?
As a tech worker, specifically software engineering, I already have a top notch salary, amazing benefits, very ample PTO (as in 25 days), and I am absolutely not over worked. Rarely do we get spikes of workload. Hell I only work four days a week, I have three day weekends every time. How would joining a union benefit me in this case?
It's like this because you have a good boss and a good company. But what happens when leadership changes hands? Especially in tech too. What would you be able to do? The answer is, absolutely nothing. Unions are a way to keep things in favor of the employee, because most unions are actually democratically held. If your boss decides to quit, and you get a hellish monster at the lead, you have no recourse against it. There's nothing you can do.
Unions will also help protect your job too, so you don't get laid off to increase profits a little bit, and keep the good times rolling(relatively).
Great statement, but not surprising. Biden talked about the importance of strong unions over and over on the campaign trail.
As was said, all of these good things are granted to you on the whim of someone above you. They can, tomorrow, decide they want to cut a lot of these benefits for the purpose of more profit. Or, if the business gets bought and your new bosses decide none of this stuff matters, you literally can do nothing but leave and go find another job.
A union is a rising tide that lifts all boats. You may have great benefits and compensation but that's not guaranteed to everyone in the company. In a lot of places, for every dollar you're making more someone is getting grinding into the dirt and overworked for shit pay. Collective bargaining works to make the working conditions for all laborers good and fair and isn't reliant on the good graces of the owner of the company.
Probably because if you get a job at Target or Walmart (two extremely common entry-level jobs for teenagers/young adults), you'll get anti-union propaganda shoved down your throat on the first day of orientation. I worked at both places (well, a Sam's Club and a Starbucks inside a Target) and a surprising chunk of the orientation video was devoted to discouraging people from joining unions, like union organizers were shady back-alley drug dealers in a D.A.R.E. video or something. Interview with an old guy who said he was in a union once, and all it meant was he had to pay dues, "which was like paying taxes" (and lord knows you don't want to pay TAXES). Old chestnuts like "unions used to be good, but the protections they fought for historically were put into legislation, so we don't need them anymore" (ignoring that you fought against those protections, and they were only put into place because of the unions, also things are still shit and I'm getting paid 8 bucks an hour with no benefits to make coffee for Karen) or "without unions, you can just talk to your boss directly!" (yeah, and when I need a raise and health insurance, I'm sure that conversation will go swimmingly) It's all pretty disgusting and blatant but I'm sure for a lot of the kids working their jobs, it's the first time they ever hear about unions.
My parents are both in unions and while they've certainly had their gripes here and there, they're definitely better off with them than without. I've never been in one myself, luckily my current job treats me fairly well (and is a small enough company that I'm in direct contact with the boss).
Thanks. Appreciate these responses! They do make a few things clearer.
Your labor is still the source of profit, and you're still only getting a fraction of what you produce. Software companies tend to make lots of wealth with few people generating it, so it's easier for the company to offer relatively high rewards to attract better talent to generate more profit for the stakeholders. But they're kicking back making millions off your code (or plan to, if they're burning money while ramping up) while you're satisfied with what they've given you. They can take it back as soon as there's a glut of programmers
Just from my own perspective as an operations engineer, if me and the other ops folks went on strike and now no one knows how to stop the servers from being on fire, our value to the company would be recognized pretty quick
Re: "why join a union if I'm already taken care of" aside from all that's mentioned, simply showing up and standing in solidarity with other workers who may not be as fortunate as you, cannot be understated. Attractive pay and benefits + "don't tell your coworkers how much you make" = fragmented, individualist workforce where it's easier to weed out "troublesome" employees who want what they deserve.
Its been reported many times that it was Biden was who changed Obama's mind, and pushed Obama on same sex marriage.
So yes, he has followed up.
Obama was going to announce his support in the summer, Biden's comments just sped things up by a couple of months. The article you posted even claims that.
Like I said, talking is free. Where's the legislation?
Presidents don't do legislation but I get your point. We gotta get the covid relief thru first. As for concrete actions, he's cleared the board at the NLRB of anti-union personnel, in a action that was less traditional than usual, firing them before their term was up. (Tho they were particularly anti-union)
Considering they're hiding behind the Senate parliamentarian as an excuse for falling to get $15/hr done currently but have no problem calling in airstrikes in Syria (Harris can override the parliamentarian so yes it's within their power) I'm having my doubts.
I realize I'm being exceptionally hard on Biden but I saw this in 2008 with Obama and I'm starting to feel like 2022 will be 2010 all over again only this time with qanon psychopaths instead of tea party racists. Promises were made in the campaign and so far a lot of those major promises have not been fulfilled.
It's bullshit that we got airstrikes before checks. What the fuck.
OP
OP
Can we not turn this thread into another one of these? The union thing is a great step, but none of this has to do with checks or airstrikes. I'm pretty sure there's threads for both of those topics already.