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Indy_Rex

Banned
Sep 20, 2020
759
Yep, that's a ripoff but expansion cards always are. Gotta make that money somewhere.

It's about what a bare. no-casing PCIe Gen 4 nvme drive costs. It's far from a rip-off. Best case scenario for a similar non-proprietary drive is $20 cheaper.

What's the cost of Sony's approved drives?

No cost yet since they're not going to be proprietary and are only based on QA certification from Sony. But given the price range for these is $200-230? It'll be around the same price.

Higher, NVMe with that speed won't cheap
There aren't any yet but they will be even more expensive.

Nope. NVMEs with similar performance to Sony's built-in solution, and the newest ones with faster speeds are around the same price. Sony's not doing proprietary, so the cost would be similar to this, not higher.
 

ThatNerdGUI

Prophet of Truth
Member
Mar 19, 2020
4,550
Number of PCIe lanes has nothing to do with number of memory modules. It'd be abstracted away at the controller level.

PS5 is supposed to have 12 flash chips for its internal SSD running on PCIe 4 x4.
This is true, although doing so has its benefits. Not sure how big of a difference the would make in this case though.
 

bruhaha

Banned
Jun 13, 2018
4,122
It still has an effect and Microsoft stressed that 2.4gb/s is sustained.
I don't have an Xbox One but perhaps someone can check if the current OS footprint in already less, though I believe if it's bound to a partition you won't see it anyway.

If you want to believe MS magically liberated an extra 0.5-1GB of OS reserved memory vs the previous gen on new consoles that have more memory without leveraging SSD, sure I guess.

My 1TB One S has 781GB available to games. A 1TB drive should have 931GiB physical capacity.
 

antispin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,780
Was expecting more given the capacity and nature of the tech. Should drop further a couple of years down the line, mid-genish.
 

thebigword

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,326
No thanks. I'll just stick to an external for cold storage and transfer to the main SSD when I want to play a certain Series X game.
 

Seijuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,858
There's gonna be many people pissed once they discover they have to spend an additional 220 because they can't use Gamepass as intended on the Series S.
 

plain

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,484
And? Their point is valid. Here's another example of comparable SSD to proprietary one, same manufacturer even:

Seagate FireCuda 510 1TB Performance Internal Solid State Drive SSD PCIe Gen3 x4 NVMe 1.3 for Gaming PC Gaming Laptop Desktop (ZP1000GM30011) $189.99

Now take into account that proprietary drive is also much smaller than PC part as well as has enclosure, price checks out.

Triple speed of latest SSD doesn't make slightly slower SSDs 3 times as cheap.

He said you won't find ssd's for much cheaper for a couple of years. We already have drives that are better in spec today for the same price. And that's from Samsung. Not Seagate, Samsung. When companies like WD, Kingston, and Adata join in on the mix, we'll see cheaper drives in no time.
 

tulpa

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,878
It's about what a bare. no-casing PCIe Gen 4 nvme drive costs. It's far from a rip-off
But again Gen 4 offers no benefit in this case. It's a non-standard solution that only functions to increase the price while offering worse performance than Gen 3 drives that cost half as much.
 

criteriondog

I like the chili style
Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,140
$80 more and you could just buy a second series S and dedicate that one to other games :P
 

Bitch Pudding

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,202
that may be a fair price given what such a SSD costs out there. It's still enthusiast level pricing, though. And the crux here is that the entry-level XSS for cost-sensitive buyers needs it the most.
 

StillEdge

Member
Oct 29, 2017
776
I'll probably cancel my order my internet is unlimited and speeds of 400mbs. With the app allowing downloads from wherever and allowing me to store and transfer on externals. I'll be fine waiting a little bit. Hopefully this pushes their cloud streaming experience for console sooner.
 

0ptimusPayne

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,752
Couldn't I just get an external SSD and place all my backup series X games/Ps5(separate drives of course) games on that, and have very reasonable copy speed times to the internal SSD?
 

Beer Monkey

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,308
There's gonna be many people pissed once they discover they have to spend an additional 220 because they can't use Gamepass as intended on the Series S.

I dared to call this a bad deal before this announcement and was torn a new asshole by people, including one that told me I maybe needed to take a rest and was too invested in the console wars.

Reminded me of when I was repeatedly called an "xbot" at the old place.

This SKU is a BAD DEAL.
 
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Kuni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
307
Yeah this was expected sadly. For all the good MS has done here with the new Xboxes it was always weird move to see them go partially proprietary with their storage cards.

They're just repeating a classic mistake of the past that Sony learned not too long ago. Really sucks for XSX owners. Hopefully MS get the price down quick and perhaps a smaller cheaper version out too.
 

Tomo815

Banned
Jul 19, 2019
1,534
MS should have eaten the cost and just bundled the S with 1T. Also should have had the same amount of vram as the One X. Come on MS.
 

Crazymoogle

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,884
Asia
Do you expect any issues with thermal throttling, or is that normally only when saturated for long periods? While the consoles may need high speeds, the continuous read speeds hopefully shouldnl't be peaking all the time?

Games just aren't hitting the drive constantly at max speed that much. They need on-demand high bandwidth, but not constant. So I really don't see these drives hitting the thermal throttling point. The PS5 SSD controller probably has some cooling on it, like a thermal pad, and most of the 2280 M.2's have a thermal sticker or included thermal pad usually, which helps. The 980 Pro has a nickel underside for cooling. I assume the XSX drive is an M.2 2240 that has a thermal pad on it, so really can't imagine a problem. Since it's basically a Laptop M.2 it will never be as fast as the PS5 implementation, but it can still fill RAM in 10 seconds or so. It's still super fast.
 

bruhaha

Banned
Jun 13, 2018
4,122
This is true, although doing so has its benefits. Not sure how big of a difference the would make in this case though.

We may never find out why it's PCIe4 x2 instead of PCIe3 x4 or PCIe4 x4, but if I had to guess the AMD Zen2 chipset design already had PCIe4 and MS sacrificed 2 PCIe lanes to take up less space on the SoC to maximize GPU CUs (or some other custom feature) on size of the silicon die they limited themselves to in order to minimize cost.
 

ThatNerdGUI

Prophet of Truth
Member
Mar 19, 2020
4,550
We may never find out why it's PCIe4 x2 instead of PCIe3 x4 or PCIe4 x4, but if I had to guess the AMD Zen2 chipset design already had PCIe4 and MS sacrificed 2 PCIe lanes to take up less space on the SoC to maximize GPU CUs (or some other custom feature) on size of the silicon die they limited themselves to in order to minimize cost.
This is my suspicion as well, although in the hotchips presentation they said they have 8x I/O lanes which makes it even more puzzling.
 

Indy_Rex

Banned
Sep 20, 2020
759
But again Gen 4 offers no benefit in this case. It's a non-standard solution that only functions to increase the price while offering worse performance than Gen 3 drives that cost half as much.


Gen 3 is cheaper and matches XSX's internal ssd speed, but that doesn't somehow change the fact that what's being offered is reasonably priced relative to what a non-proprietary alternative is. It's not a rip-off. Maybe they'll come out with a Gen 3-based alternative at a lower cost. However, what they're offering now is this, and it's not overpriced.
 

panda-zebra

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,737
Though they may be few in number, my heart breaks for hardcore Series S owners who went with that option to save money. 512 GB may be fine for the "two sports games a year and a Call of Duty" types but anyone hoping to bulk up their library is likely going to need to buy one of these sooner or later unless they're comfortable deleting and redownloading things.
I'm going to be using my Series S soley for gamepass, so lots of deleting and downloading things but only once I'm done with them. I expect having 2-3 games installed to the internal at once will be possible and workable along with a few instant save/resume dumps.

But my question is this: will I be able to run all these og xbox/360/xb1 games I've yet to play directly from a cheap external USB SSD, like the Samsung T5 I currently use on my ps4 Pro? My Pro is getting retired when the ps5 comes and I'll buy a proper expansion to 1.8TB for this console as it'll be my main machine, so could I just use that T5 with the S to let me play old Halo, Gears, Forza Horizon and Fable stuff that might be on gamepass directly? I really hope so, it'd make the whole thing far less hassle and I imagine the read speeds of 500GB/s would be way better than I'm used to with current gen throttling.
 

Deleted member 20297

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,943
If you want to believe MS magically liberated an extra 0.5-1GB of OS reserved memory vs the previous gen on new consoles that have more memory without leveraging SSD, sure I guess.

My 1TB One S has 781GB available to games. A 1TB drive should have 931GiB physical capacity.
I know about the difference between GB and GiB.
In any case, there is nothing to "win" here in terms of an argument. I'll wait for the actual data which I expect from DF.
 

bruhaha

Banned
Jun 13, 2018
4,122
It's about what a bare. no-casing PCIe Gen 4 nvme drive costs. It's far from a rip-off. Best case scenario for a similar non-proprietary drive is $20 cheaper.

Except these operate at less than PCIe 3 x4 speeds. The majority of the cost of an NVMe SSD is the flash chips, not the PCIe controller, and the flash chips in this proprietary expansion card are half the speed compared to what's in the $200 gen 4 NVMe drives.
 

tulpa

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,878
Gen 3 is cheaper and matches XSX's internal ssd speed, but that doesn't somehow change the fact that what's being offered is reasonably priced relative to what a non-proprietary alternative is
No it's not, because the non-proprietary alternative is either a Gen 3 drive with similar speeds that is much cheaper or a Gen 4 drive that's much, much faster for the same price. Either way, this solution is subpar and expensive.
 

LiquidDom

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
2,314
I pre-ordered one because I like having a ton of games downloaded at once, but damn is it expensive lol
 

M.Bluth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,253
He said you won't find ssd's for much cheaper for a couple of years. We already have drives that are better in spec today for the same price. And that's from Samsung. Not Seagate, Samsung. When companies like WD, Kingston, and Adata join in on the mix, we'll see cheaper drives in no time.
Yeah, I don't get it.
The reason why you'd need a Gen4 drive is because Microsoft has chosen to make their SSD solution use only 2 PCIe lanes instead of the usual 4.

The Xbox Series' SSD doesn't come close to saturating 4 lanes of PCIe3, so if they wanted to, they could have easily supported regular M.2 NVMe drives and it would have been SO much cheaper for consumers.
 

Typhoon20

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,568
Nah I'm good. Will just use ext hdd to swap games and buy one of these when they drop to 100 bucks (if ever).
 

Rikimaru

Member
Nov 2, 2017
851
Yeah, I don't get it.
The reason why you'd need a Gen4 drive is because Microsoft has chosen to make their SSD solution use only 2 PCIe lanes instead of the usual 4.

The Xbox Series' SSD doesn't come close to saturating 4 lanes of PCIe3, so if they wanted to, they could have easily supported regular M.2 NVMe drives and it would have been SO much cheaper for consumers.
4 lanes of PCIe 3.0 is more expensive than 2x 4.0 link.
 

bruhaha

Banned
Jun 13, 2018
4,122
This is my suspicion as well, although in the hotchips presentation they said they have 8x I/O lanes which makes it even more puzzling.

Zen2 for PC has 24 lanes I think but you'd use 8-16 for your GPU card.

XSX has just PCIe4 x8 lanes total. 2 for internal SSD, 2 for expansion SSD, 4 for other stuff (3x USB 3.1 gen1 ports, Gigabit ethernet, Wifi, etc)

I guess PS5 probably has x12 or x16 lanes, 4 for each of 2 SSDs and spare so they could do USB 3.1 gen2.
 
Last edited:

zero71

Member
Dec 4, 2017
232
Umm. Someone on the very first page already posted one for 230 around triple the speed.

Umm. But not cheaper, then? My point was that a $200 price point for a fast SSD for either console is realistic. All the "how much?" comments are likely from folk expecting a low $99 drive. Regardless of the PS5 drive being faster, $200 is about right for the Xbox drive.
 

Iwao

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,799
So the convenience and simplicity of adding and removing that tiny card into the back of the console is really awesome, but at that price it seems like the benefits will not be as great long-term as Sony's SSD.
 

bi0g3n3sis

Banned
Aug 10, 2020
211
This is my suspicion as well, although in the hotchips presentation they said they have 8x I/O lanes which makes it even more puzzling.

Internal SSD using 2 lanes, same as for external. Serdes I/O is used for any I/O really, like USB, SATA, UHD and others stuff ( i know there is no SATA in XSX/S, just saying for what SerDes is ). The PCIe x8 is for the entire system. They are effectively 5 x8 Pcie bus sharing that single x8 pcie bus on the SoC.
 

Magio

Member
Apr 14, 2020
647
It's about what a bare. no-casing PCIe Gen 4 nvme drive costs. It's far from a rip-off. Best case scenario for a similar non-proprietary drive is $20 cheaper.

I know MS is touting PCIe Gen 4, but it's still at PCIe Gen 3 speeds, you can find ones around that fast for about 150$ give or take. It's kind of a ripoff for what it is. Especially as they should be getting great prices on the NAND chips they buy since they're buying them by the millions.

Samsung's 1To 980 Pro (which saturates the PCIe Gen 4 interface, so should be fast enough for PS5) is 230$. I really expected MS to try their best to make theirs significantly cheaper than the kind of cutting edge drives you'll need for a PS5. Not go the "it's proprietary fucking deal with it" route that everyone loved when Sony did it with the Vita.
 

bruhaha

Banned
Jun 13, 2018
4,122
Umm. But not cheaper, then? My point was that a $200 price point for a fast SSD for either console is realistic. All the "how much?" comments are likely from folk expecting a low $99 drive. Regardless of the PS5 drive being faster, $200 is about right for the Xbox drive.

The Samsung drive which is a PC part will come down in price much faster than the proprietary expansion card. Once Intel releases their next gen CPUs which is the first Intel generation to support PCIe4, those PCIe4 NVMe SSDs will be mass produced by Samsung, WD, Sabrent, etc and competition will drive prices down.