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Lentic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,835
The fact that developers can't explore themes like this without being immediately attacked is fucking sad, imo. It's shameful. Especially a developer like CDPR that explores themes other developers don't even dare to explore. It's all about grey zones and letting you decide for yourself: what's good, what's wrong (if that even exists).

What does everyone expect? A super safe, focus tested game? No cursing, nudity, violence, exploration of LGBT+ themes? Just a bland, PG13 game?

Extreme violence? Let's make a thread about how developers / artists should tone back the violence. They must be condoning this behaviour.

Cursing? Let's make a thread about it. How dare this - obviously written as an evil, villainous character - use curse words that they would probably fucking use IRL?! How do they fucking DARE?!

Exploration of LGBT+ themes? Let's immediately attack them, they must be homophobic / transphobic as fuck.

Does anyone realize that it's disrespectful to the people working there that you are all attacking them without giving them the benefit of the doubt? That there are LGBT+ people working there that are now immediately cornered by a mob as if they're working at a shitty, disrespectful place?

I think this trend of immediately ASSUMING the absolute worst is EXTREMELY toxic, and that's what we want to avoid in the first place, right? Stop jumping the gun.
People should never criticize anything ever.
/s

If your art is having an unintended effect, you're not doing your job very well. At that point you need to step back and ask yourself whether you should make changes to communicate your message better.

That's all ignoring their past history regarding these issues where they have repeatedly refused to take criticism.
 
Oct 27, 2017
11,496
Bandung Indonesia
This is madness... their making a videogame, their not re-writing the law or something.
Its 18+ for a reason and if people are easilly offended its better for them to stay away from certain products.

That 5 people thing is tongue in cheek but there's nothing "mad" about consulting someone from the minority group they want to depict to ensure the depiction is a tasteful and meaningful as possible.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
31,904
Apparently it needs to be repeated for era.
You understand this isn't some enlightened post right:
Considering how many posts there are on this forum dedicated to talking about it, I would disagree.
Controversy isn't hard to manufacture nor is it worthy of praise by itself. Unless for some reason you think everything that offends people is some high art piece worthy of being called thought provoking. The inclusion of loot boxes in games isn't exactly thought provoking but it's discussed repeatedly on the forum.

Also if this is some 'Im being literal, people are talking about it thus they're thinking about it' then ok, I guess. Thought provoking isn't really applied to literally everything that provokes a thought though, since that's most of everything.
 

misho8723

Member
Jan 7, 2018
3,709
Slovakia
I think it's sad and shameful you're having a meltdown over people discussing something on an enthusiast gaming forum.

Especially when that discussion is about trans and non binary representation in a game made by a company that has outwardly mocked that community in the past.

Ok, but wasn't behide all the Twitter posts one guy, who was fired around a one year ago (I think) and after that there weren't any more issues or problems with CD Projekt RED when it comes to this kind of stuff?
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
Yeah and I'm hoping the game does do this, but does that mean if the game does show positive trans representation in the final product, that the picture no longer becomes offensive, or is it less so with context?

I appreciate the point that this is the only thing they have really highlighted so far, and when coupled with some of the companies previous comments it doesn't bode well, so I can completely understand why anyone would be suspicious or wary of how this will be expressed in the final product

I'm cis and I thought the image was pretty on the nose, and then after the explanation from the developer decided to wait and see how the game as a whole deals with these issues before either praising or condemning it

The image is always going to be graphic, irrespective of CDPR handling the world building. We already know in the behind closed doors demo for journalists a homosexual relationship, or at least, one night stand, was shown.

2019 though isn't Cyberpunk 2077. It's easy for Sony/MS/Nintendo to say they support pride and put some colours on their social media profiles, but the reality of same sex relationships or so on still gets cut or ran away from when it comes to ordinary depictions you see for cis people. Diet Coke ads in the fucking 90's were doing this



Nevermind the avalanche of disproportion when it comes to cis women prancing about in underwear or even less to sell perfume, clothes or whatever.

But then we get to E3. An E3 where Sony were seen as brave just for showing two lesbians kiss. A kiss. That's all. A single kiss. And in 201x (can't remember if it was E3 2018 or 2017) we were at such a point in society where that is still controversial. And MS? We've just watched them at E3 censoring swear words and a god damn flip-off. As in, the middle finger. They put a black bar over a middle finger. I mean, is this 2019? Or is this just America?

Cyberpunk is obviously going to be full of normalized sexual content for gay, straight and for a big-budget AAA game, it's probably going to have a reasonable amount of content depicting non-binary and gender fluid. I understand people want to jump the gun here because of how little we have seen of the game and it's all we have to go on, but the irony is 2077 is supposed to be very free with sex and identity, yet in 2019 trying to show this off at a mainstream tradeshow is probably going to get "ahhhs" and "buts". Because half a country is primed to scream like fucking banshee's if any explicit non-straight content is shown. Or Fox News is still ready to call the Xbox the MS Sexbox even if it's straight sexual content.

"I don't hate gay people, but please don't show or normalize that kissing or sex". You know, like what's going in the UK right now with schools. "We're not homophobes, but please don't advertise the gay lifestyle".

Yes, I agree CDPR probably could just go and do their own demos for the mainstream media and ignore trade shows, they could do better there. But we're a year out and if they listen they still have plenty more time to show off more of the game and revisit choices for your character (as in reassuring everyone what you can select/modify).
 
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timedesk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,937
The fact that developers can't explore themes like this without being immediately attacked is fucking sad, imo. It's shameful. Especially a developer like CDPR that explores themes other developers don't even dare to explore. It's all about grey zones and letting you decide for yourself: what's good, what's wrong (if that even exists).

What does everyone expect? A super safe, focus tested game? No cursing, nudity, violence, exploration of LGBT+ themes? Just a bland, PG13 game?

Extreme violence? Let's make a thread about how developers / artists should tone back the violence. They must be condoning this behaviour.

Cursing? Let's make a thread about it. How dare this - obviously written as an evil, villainous character - use curse words that they would probably fucking use IRL?! How do they fucking DARE?!

Exploration of LGBT+ themes? Let's immediately attack them, they must be homophobic / transphobic as fuck.

Does anyone realize that it's disrespectful to the people working there that you are all attacking them without giving them the benefit of the doubt? That there are LGBT+ people working there that are now immediately cornered by a mob as if they're working at a shitty, disrespectful place?

I think this trend of immediately ASSUMING the absolute worst is EXTREMELY toxic, and that's what we want to avoid in the first place, right? Stop jumping the gun.

I mean no one made them lead with lead with this in regards to LGBT representation. They want credit for having good representation, then have good representation. Don't lead with that. Hell maybe start by making a decent apology for the garbage tweets they put out insulting Trans movements. Or maybe, I don't know, add non binary options in the character creator. Hell, how about do literally any kind of positive representation for the community rather than an exploitative ad.

A creator doesn't get special consideration just because they tackle a difficult or contentious subject. They get respect for handling it well, or thoughtfully. If this game wasn't so freaking interested in the violence and gore in the marketing, and was instead introducing us into a chilling and thought provoking world I would probably be having a different conversation. Instead I have seen plenty of Trans posters and writers talk about how stuff like this is in bad taste.

No one datamined this, this was presented to us, and people are reacting to it. To call their frustration and disappointment toxic or unfounded feels like bs. The developers have made unforced errors. Maybe this game will be amazing, and when it is finally released it will handle most if not all its subject matter well and with respect. However, in the present, what I am seeing is a lot of questionable choices, both in regards to LGBT issues and possibly their handling of race as well. It feels like this thread is about people expressing their concern for how this game looks like it is handling certain issues, and some are saying they might not buy it at launch or preorder it, not that it should not exist.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
31,904
Ok, but wasn't behide all the Twitter posts one guy, who was fired around a one year ago (I think) and after that there weren't any more issues or problems with CD Projekt RED when it comes to this kind of stuff?
I get the angling over CDPR but it's really kinda a non point. I wrote a post earlier if you're interested, exploring some of the wider context with these issues. I've pasted the relevent chunk below.
It wasn't the company though, it was a person on twitter!

Again, this level of naivety and feigned ignorance over things that are common practice in every other facet of business and industry is one that's hard to take seriously. The person didn't just fart and land on the desk in the office, primed to write a shitty tweet. They were hired, they were told the remits of their position, they may or may not have had the tweet vetted by at least one other employee before it was sent – and yes, I have worked within marketing departments of large organizations. It's rarely some spotted teen who's been allowed to run rampant with the front-facing image of the company without restriction.

That's what this is, and that's what twitter is. It's a very conscious front-face to your company that can be used to directly engage with your community. Anyone hiring for, and anyone applying for, this position would know this and understand the importance of it.

"Gut writes shitty tweet, guy gets fired" is a reduction of what happens.

Hiring for the above positions should rely on some background into the person their hiring's activity on social media, not least because this person is front-facing in a digital position where they'll actively been communicating on your behalf. It's not some NSA level nonsense, just a cursory scroll through public pages to get a sense of some of their vocal positions. It's basic due-dilligence for the role, done in minutes while assessing candidates. So it's likely it occured and nothing was raised, but it's a potential area for things like this to be caught.

So you've got your written job spec (likely written/agreed by people outside of the hiring manager). You have your hiring manager. Now you've hired the little would-be devil. You have an induction, you train him. At this point you might be congizent of the fact you've had prior twitter controversies within your family of companies, and knowing how one can affect the other perhaps you labour the point of being careful what to post. It's not comprehensive but it's key guidance on the tone your company wishes to write with, the remits of what they can and can't go for (politics, social issues, competition, the like). This is an important step as it's the bridge between their past experience within media positions, and how you would like for them to represent you. This can be as vague and as strict as it likes, but it's defined by the client/employer.

So.. guy writes shitty tweet.. From this point it's not even about the guy any more. That part of the story is locked in time, and now the only matter of meaning is how the management and wider entity react.

It's here where people galvanise their long lasting opinions, not the actual act.

Employees have done shit things in abundance, it's a tricky thing for a company to handle granted but if done right it can almost completely reverse the tide of good-will. This is because we largely recognise that yes, any employee of a company can go rogue and do whatever so it can be hard to not have such an event occur within a large organization over the span of many years. Instead it shifts to how this event is handled, whether similar events have occured recently, how swiftly a response is made, what that response is and whether ongoing any shift or change. It varies from situation from situation but you get the gist of it.

In this case it's where most people feel GOG and CDP have let the ball drop.

Firing the person isn't the start and end of this, nor is it particularly worthy of praise (nor scorn either). You would expect any major company to fire someone over transphobic tweets. There's poorly worded tweets and then there's mocking the entire notion of gender identity. We've established there's internal scrutiny to be cast on the hiring and training process, but now it shifts to how they were fired and how that was communicated with those hurt.

"It's gotten too much" as the sole reason for firing someone for the above is pathetic, and – with that we have – honestly doesn't point to much more than "you've become more hassle than you're worth to us".

Firing the person certainly shows they understand that there was a negative reaction to their actions, but in isolation it doesn't indicate much more. You have a very real financial and business incentive to fire them, even outside of any concern for LGBTQ+ rights. So further clarification is needed at that stage, to see whether CDP/GOG understand the ramifications of the tweet within the community and how it's hurt players. You'd want a statement put out pretty prompty to reassure that, to which we got:

cd-projekt-red-joke.png




Which, as with the above, misses the mark again. "Sorry to all those offended" is not an apology for the action. It's an apology solely if it offended you, when it should be an apology regardless because the issue is the mocking in the tweet not the reaction to it. Harming somoene is rarely anyone's intention, so again – nothing really much here. No outreach toward the trans and NB community, just a "sorry for the offense".

So it's felt that nothing was really understood in what was actually wrong in the scenario, despite a corrective action (the firing) being made. Then you have this pop up:

cwxklk4vmxy432r68j40.png


Which is responded to with this:



Even less understanding and zero apology. Which will lead onto..


GOG, CDP and CDPR are all separate!

In the wake of the GOG tweet the fired community manager said this:
Halliday told Eurogamer that this tweet was not his doing, and that the accounts for CD Projekt Red's games are run by seperate teams, but it was still easily seen externally as part of a trend of bad tweets from the company's social media accounts.
..because that's exactly what it was. CDP aren't stupid, they're more than aware that people interlink the three entities and they were always going to when they never shied away, or attempted to distinguish themselves from, the association.

Naturally they want all of the good will from The Witcher 3 and the CDPR brand to splash over onto GOG and it has. However you can't try and have that be a one way street. If you're congizent of the fact that your brands are associated and you're leveraging good will from that, then you need to accept that if one is stained by something like a PR mishap then it is likely to have consequences for the wider group. Certainly if you're having repeat issues on social media, there should be a focus on ensuring group-wide communications are consistent and managed.

So when you find a situation where two parts of this connected group are getting in hot water about mocking the exact same topic, and when apologies or no-apology is given in the wake are unsatisfactory you might land on not wishing to support any aspect of CDP until they make strides toward changing that attitude, and actually understanding the impact the actions have had within the community. Frankly, if they don't show much regard for the community in the wake of it being mocked when why should the community follow them blindly into the next purchase?
 
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Skade

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,837
Well... Cyberpunk as a genre is supposed to portray a fucked-up dystopic futuristic society choke full of fucked-up people. I would never assume that ads in such a world would be tactfull and respectfull to anybody. It's not like ads in our current world are much better anyway.

So... We'll see how the game ends-up to be next year.
 

Yukari

Member
Mar 28, 2018
11,681
Thailand
There should be a rule that whenever companies try to depict something about minorities that there should be at least 5 people from that minority group in the room to offer insight. Otherwise... just don't do it.

Honestly, I think LGBT representation didn't in most media company mind in the first place.
But they add because to show that the company supports LGBT people (which turn out be a bad rep or just Female Bi/Lesbian)
 

Moose the Mooche

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,538
Netherlands
That 5 people thing is tongue in cheek but there's nothing "mad" about consulting someone from the minority group they want to depict to ensure the depiction is a tasteful and meaningful as possible.

Agreed about the consulting part. Disagreed about the tasteful part. I mean the image of yesterday (with the giant cock) was anything but tasteful but i hope they keep shit like that in.
I am 33 years old and if i play a violent game or a political game i want to see the violence or feel the politics. I have mental problems my whole life. How often are we being mocked with? Doesnt mean an artist has to make his art with certain restrictions because i might be offended.
Not everything is for everyone.
 

Xeontech

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,059
That was a much more in depth and thought out response than I would have expected from them. Good on her.
 

timedesk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,937
Agreed about the consulting part. Disagreed about the tasteful part. I mean the image of yesterday (with the giant cock) was anything but tasteful but i hope they keep shit like that in.
I am 33 years old and if i play a violent game or a political game i want to see the violence or feel the politics. I have mental problems my whole life. How often are we being mocked with? Doesnt mean an artist has to make his art with certain restrictions because i might be offended.
Not everything is for everyone.

You're right not everything is for everyone, but that doesn't mean that every edgy take is good. I am fine with games being overtly political, and not hiding their themes, but it is fair to leverage criticism when they use harmful imagery or cliches/stereotypes. This setting is massively political, and no one is saying that the game shouldn't be as well. I just think if this game is going to examine issues related to the trans struggle, it should do it well, and not just be provocative background noise.

Not everything is for everyone, but almost no games are actually made for the trans community. To see a franchise that could shine a light on them have mediocre representation is kind of a downer. I wish this game would make things like sexual identity more a part of the character creator, as that would have helped balance some of harsher stuff that has to be present in this game. I think my real frustration is that so far this game's marketing seems to be highlighting the violence and cool cyber stuff, and is leaving out all the world building and political commentary.
 
Oct 27, 2017
11,496
Bandung Indonesia
Agreed about the consulting part. Disagreed about the tasteful part. I mean the image of yesterday (with the giant cock) was anything but tasteful but i hope they keep shit like that in.
I am 33 years old and if i play a violent game or a political game i want to see the violence or feel the politics. I have mental problems my whole life. How often are we being mocked with? Doesnt mean an artist has to make his art with certain restrictions because i might be offended.
Not everything is for everyone.

I didn't mean tasteful as in "don't show anything bad" or "don't depict anything about minorities" but more of a .... if you want to say something about them, make sure to do it with a meaningful purpose, you know? Not just doing it crassly or without consideration at all, especially for minorities since well, they don't need that extra kick when they're down there already.
 

adammac

Banned
Jun 13, 2019
2
User Banned (Permanent): Troll account
The way I see it? They are creating a game about a DYSTOPIAN future (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystopia for those who don't understand what it means).
So, if they are committed to their vision, they should make things like racism, ethnical divisions, sexualisation, trans people treatment worse than they are now, not better. People are giving them sh*t because of how black the Animals gang was. How inconsiderate it was to have a white protagonist kill those stereotypic black criminals. Well, in a society as depicted in Cyberpunk, people should have it even more difficult to escape their ethnic ghettos, so this is a reasonable choice to depict gangs as same race/same ethnic groups (especially not caucasian). The image of the trans person with a "mix it up" slogan is very inappropriate, on the nose and inconsiderate. Exactly how I would expect advertisements in a corporate ruled, dystopian future to be.

I would even go farther. Reading comments on RPS, PCGamer or Kotaku under articles regarding this situation there is a lot of people hoping that the devs will present that in the context that clearly defines that kind of thing as wrong. And I for one, hope to God they will not. The Witcher 3 was great, because it gave you every opportunity to act like a d*ck and then would show you the consequences of your action. If you were a d*ck IRL, they probably didn't bother you much, as no one told you something like "that was the BAD choice to make". If you were not a d*ck IRL however, it made you question your decision and maybe feel a little bit bad in the process.

I hope in Cyberpunk, thet will crank it up to 11. Give you every opportunity to embrace the dystopian future and live an easy life of an inconsiderate, sleazy bastard. I hope it will give you a choice to exploit trans people, capitalise on racial stereotypes and do all manners of morally disgusting stuff and benefit from it. And then it should show you the consequences of your actions. Not in some over-narrated, closed-to-interpretation way, that would simply point out how terrible a person you are. In the real world, the consequences of such actions are often subtle, but the problem is that the privileged western culture CIS population often doesn't even see them. I think a lot of people would reflect on their real life behaviour even if given subtle clues on how what they do affects minorities. And some will choose this path and thrive, some will feel shitty about themselves for choosing the easy and immoral way. I also hope, the decent man's path will be harder and less rewarding in terms of loot/money. As it should be harder and it should be a more difficult thing to be a decent person in a world ruled by indecent men. Being decent should be it's own reward. In the end that journey could really make a lot of those not politically engaged on one side or the other (AKA a huge majority of people) change something about their lives for the better. And from what I can tell from CDPR interviews so far, that is where they are going with it.

And I would really implore all the minorities that feel offended by that to let them. I understand you would feel better if someone would show that they give a damn about how you are treated with a very direct message like "this is bad, this is good". But ask yourselves this - what would do your cause more good? Having the privileged CIS majority play a game that for 200 hours tells them on every occasion "Treat LGBTQ People right! And ethnic minorities too!" or putting them for said 200 hours in a virtual world where they can witness realistically (but slightly more pronounced, as all things in Cyberpunk should be) shown consequences of mistreating minorities and letting them draw their own conclusions? I, an overweight CIS male, a typical nerd gamer, can give you some insight in that regard. And I have a feeling my fellow CIS gamers would agree with me.
 

Moose the Mooche

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,538
Netherlands
Not everything is for everyone, but almost no games are actually made for the trans community. To see a franchise that could shine a light on them have mediocre representation is kind of a downer. I wish this game would make things like sexual identity more a part of the character creator, as that would have helped balance some of harsher stuff that has to be present in this game. I think my real frustration is that so far this game's marketing seems to be highlighting the violence and cool cyber stuff, and is leaving out all the world building and political commentary.
I didn't mean tasteful as in "don't show anything bad" or "don't depict anything about minorities" but more of a .... if you want to say something about them, make sure to do it with a meaningful purpose, you know? Not just doing it crassly or without consideration at all, especially for minorities since well, they don't need that extra kick when they're down there already.

Okay i can see that.
Well we can only wait and see how they handle the situation.
 

JDSN

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,129
Yeah, as a straight dude that just read like a word salad with lots of co-opting on the side.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
31,904
The way I see it? They are creating a game about a DYSTOPIAN future (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystopia for those who don't understand what it means).
So, if they are committed to their vision, they should make things like racism, ethnical divisions, sexualisation, trans people treatment worse than they are now, not better. People are giving them sh*t because of how black the Animals gang was. How inconsiderate it was to have a white protagonist kill those stereotypic black criminals. Well, in a society as depicted in Cyberpunk, people should have it even more difficult to escape their ethnic ghettos, so this is a reasonable choice to depict gangs as same race/same ethnic groups (especially not caucasian). The image of the trans person with a "mix it up" slogan is very inappropriate, on the nose and inconsiderate. Exactly how I would expect advertisements in a corporate ruled, dystopian future to be.

I would even go farther. Reading comments on RPS, PCGamer or Kotaku under articles regarding this situation there is a lot of people hoping that the devs will present that in the context that clearly defines that kind of thing as wrong. And I for one, hope to God they will not. The Witcher 3 was great, because it gave you every opportunity to act like a d*ck and then would show you the consequences of your action. If you were a d*ck IRL, they probably didn't bother you much, as no one told you something like "that was the BAD choice to make". If you were not a d*ck IRL however, it made you question your decision and maybe feel a little bit bad in the process.

I hope in Cyberpunk, thet will crank it up to 11. Give you every opportunity to embrace the dystopian future and live an easy life of an inconsiderate, sleazy bastard. I hope it will give you a choice to exploit trans people, capitalise on racial stereotypes and do all manners of morally disgusting stuff and benefit from it. And then it should show you the consequences of your actions. Not in some over-narrated, closed-to-interpretation way, that would simply point out how terrible a person you are. In the real world, the consequences of such actions are often subtle, but the problem is that the privileged western culture CIS population often doesn't even see them. I think a lot of people would reflect on their real life behaviour even if given subtle clues on how what they do affects minorities. And some will choose this path and thrive, some will feel shitty about themselves for choosing the easy and immoral way. I also hope, the decent man's path will be harder and less rewarding in terms of loot/money. As it should be harder and it should be a more difficult thing to be a decent person in a world ruled by indecent men. Being decent should be it's own reward. In the end that journey could really make a lot of those not politically engaged on one side or the other (AKA a huge majority of people) change something about their lives for the better. And from what I can tell from CDPR interviews so far, that is where they are going with it.

And I would really implore all the minorities that feel offended by that to let them. I understand you would feel better if someone would show that they give a damn about how you are treated with a very direct message like "this is bad, this is good".
But ask yourselves this - what would do your cause more good? Having the privileged CIS majority play a game that for 200 hours tells them on every occasion "Treat LGBTQ People right! And ethnic minorities too!" or putting them for said 200 hours in a virtual world where they can witness realistically (but slightly more pronounced, as all things in Cyberpunk should be) shown consequences of mistreating minorities and letting them draw their own conclusions?
I, an overweight CIS male, a typical nerd gamer, can give you some insight in that regard. And I have a feeling my fellow CIS gamers would agree with me.
You should have led with this lol.
 
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Aztorian

Member
Jan 3, 2018
1,456
A well-thought out design in the first place. I feel like this game portrays a lot of different controversial themes this way in the future. Very interesting!
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
And I would really implore all the minorities that feel offended by that to let them. I understand you would feel better if someone would show that they give a damn about how you are treated with a very direct message like "this is bad, this is good". But ask yourselves this - what would do your cause more good? Having the privileged CIS majority play a game that for 200 hours tells them on every occasion "Treat LGBTQ People right! And ethnic minorities too!" or putting them for said 200 hours in a virtual world where they can witness realistically (but slightly more pronounced, as all things in Cyberpunk should be) shown consequences of mistreating minorities and letting them draw their own conclusions? I, an overweight CIS male, a typical nerd gamer, can give you some insight in that regard. And I have a feeling my fellow CIS gamers would agree with me.

Spoiler: their conclusion will be that they played a bad ass edgelord in a neon lighted city. That's it.
 

How About No

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,785
The Great Dairy State
Wants the offensive ness and edginess ramped up even more

Censors "dick"

Capitalizes "cis"

Refers to himself as a gamer and thinks cis male gamers opinions matter

Gotta say, quality 1st post

First, Ana Valens' Daily Dot piece, shared here earlier, is really excellent. It's the #1 thing to read about this, that I've found so far.

Also found myself nodding along to her tweet here (couldn't make it embed correctly so I took a screencap) and the embedded snippet from her article:

QdgvZud.png

main tweet:
To quote @jaffameister: "Ultimately, the lesson here is that in order for trans representation to be done right, trans people need to be involved in the decision-making process." Want to talk about us? Put us in the room. We know how to talk about gender in a meaningful way.

text of tweet's embedded screencap, a quote from Valens' Daily Dot article:
"Redesiuk talks in such a way as it feels like she rarely interacts with trans people, if at all," Johnson explained. "I think she genuinely does want to make an earnest and genuine portrayal of representation in Cyberpunk. She clearly needs to talk to us more and understand us better before trying to act on that, but I think she wants to do good. That desire to do something good for trans people doesn't seem to be shared with the rest of the studio, though."

The problem here isn't the trans body. It's how the game depicts that body, frames it for cis players' amusement, and does so at trans peoples' expense. In Johnson's case, CD Projekt's past behavior weighed heavily on her initial interpretation of the joke, and she called it a "continuation of CD Projekt Red's tone-deaf disregard for trans people." For players who miss Redesiuk's commentary, it's likely they'd walk away with the same first impression she did.

"Ultimately, the lesson here is that in order for trans representation to be done right, trans people need to be involved in the decision-making process," she explained. "It's pretty apparent that CD Projekt Red hasn't consulted trans people when making these decisions, and in a genre that has evolved to where it is today—rich with queer culture—that's a deeply disappointing oversight."

Nice to see another trans person comin' away thinkin' the CDPR artist doesn't know the first thing about real-life trans people. It really feels that way. It's like she's talking about theoretical gender aliens or something. And let's note what kind of depiction that resulted in.
Eyy very good article and take on this
 

DavidDesu

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,718
Glasgow, Scotland
My issue was by using the image completely removed any form of context and thus is subjected to the question and outrage directed at it.

The response is fine and justifies its use in the game, but the way it was just thrown on stage was problematic to me
It was an advert in a game world littered with adverts that just happened to be in the background of the example image they used (and had to be massively zoomed in on to actually show the detail in the as), I'm confused that you seem to expect every frame from the game to be delivered with paragraphs worth of context. It seemed pretty clear to me the controversial ad was obviously controversial "in world" and not just "CDPR are transphobic and here's an example of their haphazard bigotry", like many others took as their immediate takeaway. Whatever issues CDPR have over these issues that have arisen through their actions, I think it's a bit harsh to not at least try to understand this advert is deliberate and will have context within the game, like obviously it will. Surely.
 

Legacy

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,704
I can see what she was trying to do, I hope people can move on from this
 

derFeef

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,352
Austria
I hope in Cyberpunk, thet will crank it up to 11. Give you every opportunity to embrace the dystopian future and live an easy life of an inconsiderate, sleazy bastard. I hope it will give you a choice to exploit trans people, capitalise on racial stereotypes and do all manners of morally disgusting stuff and benefit from it. And then it should show you the consequences of your actions. Not in some over-narrated, closed-to-interpretation way, that would simply point out how terrible a person you are. In the real world, the consequences of such actions are often subtle, but the problem is that the privileged western culture CIS population often doesn't even see them. I think a lot of people would reflect on their real life behaviour even if given subtle clues on how what they do affects minorities. And some will choose this path and thrive, some will feel shitty about themselves for choosing the easy and immoral way. I also hope, the decent man's path will be harder and less rewarding in terms of loot/money. As it should be harder and it should be a more difficult thing to be a decent person in a world ruled by indecent men. Being decent should be it's own reward. In the end that journey could really make a lot of those not politically engaged on one side or the other (AKA a huge majority of people) change something about their lives for the better. And from what I can tell from CDPR interviews so far, that is where they are going with it.
Wow.
And you really lthonk that a player doing harmful bad things on purpuse, and then get represented with the "consequence" will really care? A person that actively seeks such things is not a person that wants to learn about consequence or harmfulness.
 
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
It was an advert in a game world littered with adverts that just happened to be in the background of the example image they used (and had to be massively zoomed in on to actually show the detail in the as), I'm confused that you seem to expect every frame from the game to be delivered with paragraphs worth of context. It seemed pretty clear to me the controversial ad was obviously controversial "in world" and not just "CDPR are transphobic and here's an example of their haphazard bigotry", like many others took as their immediate takeaway. Whatever issues CDPR have over these issues that have arisen through their actions, I think it's a bit harsh to not at least try to understand this advert is deliberate and will have context within the game, like obviously it will. Surely.

The image used in the tweet was from some NVIDIA material, that is where my point is coming from. Obviously if you're playing the game the tone and context is there.
 

adammac

Banned
Jun 13, 2019
2
Spoiler: their conclusion will be that they played a bad ass edgelord in a neon lighted city. That's it.

If that's the case then games are simply not the right medium to advance the subject of gender and ethnic equality. In which case any shit you give the devs on how they misrepresent minorities is simply you, wasting your time, as it will change nothing.

I, personally, think that games have about the same power as movies nowadays, or even more so, as they can be far more engaging (at least when game devs decide to have opinion on something). And the general consensus seems regarding how movies influence our world perception is known well enough, that I think there is no point discussing it here.
 

Cyn

Member
Oct 31, 2017
237
User Banned (1 month): Dismissing Concerns on Transphobia, Misrepresenting Arguments, and Accusations of Outrage Culture; Account in Junior Phase
It took maybe several seconds of critical thinking to come to the same reasons as the CDPR rep stated here. I swear some folk go out of their way to deliberately extrapolate and twist information and context just in order to get and outrage mob building.

Looking at the comments in the other thread... some of these folks should be embarrassed by their emotional outbursts and need to get a grip. And in this thread there are people flip flipping more than a fish out of water "oh that's fine definitely going to buy now"

Maybe instead of jumping to conclusions and condemning an entire collection of people "CDPR are transphobic" we should allow creatives to show us or tell us, perhaps give them the benefit of the doubt and not take things out of context until we have a more complete picture and understanding, otherwise we risk completely stifling creative voices from exploring uncomfortable, controversial, finge or taboo subjects.

In 24 hours this game has gone from a transphobic and racist alt-right piece of propaganda to "hyper-progressive".

Jesus H. Christ
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
31,904
Maybe instead of jumping to conclusions and condemning an entire collection of people "CDPR are transphobic" we should allow creatives to show us or tell us, perhaps give them the benefit of the doubt and not take things out of context until we have a more complete picture and understanding, otherwise we risk completely stifling creative voices from exploring uncomfortable, controversial, finge or taboo subjects.
Just fucking lol at the idea of giving CDP Group the benefit of the doubt over handling trans and non-binary themes with nuance and subtlety.
 
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Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
If that's the case then games are simply not the right medium to advance the subject of gender and ethnic equality. In which case any shit you give the devs on how they misrepresent minorities is simply you, wasting your time, as it will change nothing.

They can be, but gamers have shown again and again they are not interested. The same people that get angry when you say a fucking Tom Clancy game is political.

About me wasting my time or not, first is not anyone bussiness, second it's false that it will change nothing. Mind you, I don't think CDPR is going to change shit, but feedback is important in every aspect of a game, and something devs takes note and can end up in changes with the game. It's true with designs, graphcis, framerate, sound, and also in representation.
At the end, everything they throw us about a game is marketing, and marketing is done so people react to it.

It took maybe several seconds of critical thinking to come to the same reasons as the CDPR rep stated here. I swear some folk go out of their way to deliberately extrapolate and twist information and context just in order to get and outrage mob building.

Looking at the comments in the other thread... some of these folks should be embarrassed by their emotional outbursts and need to get a grip. And in this thread there are people flip flipping more than a fish out of water "oh that's fine definitely going to buy now"

Maybe instead of jumping to conclusions and condemning an entire collection of people "CDPR are transphobic" we should allow creatives to show us or tell us, perhaps give them the benefit of the doubt and not take things out of context until we have a more complete picture and understanding, otherwise we risk completely stifling creative voices from exploring uncomfortable, controversial, finge or taboo subjects.

In 24 hours this game has gone from a transphobic and racist alt-right piece of propaganda to "hyper-progressive".

Jesus H. Christ

I swear some folk go out of their way to deliberately extrapolate and twist information and context just in order tell minorities that they are an outrage mob.

Jesus H Christ really, read the thread, see how not everyone has make this game now "hyper progressive", read how plenty of trans people have chimed with well reasoned answers as to why the answer is not that good, and don't fucking dismiss minorities concerns as an outrage mob.
 

timedesk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,937
It took maybe several seconds of critical thinking to come to the same reasons as the CDPR rep stated here. I swear some folk go out of their way to deliberately extrapolate and twist information and context just in order to get and outrage mob building.

Looking at the comments in the other thread... some of these folks should be embarrassed by their emotional outbursts and need to get a grip. And in this thread there are people flip flipping more than a fish out of water "oh that's fine definitely going to buy now"

Maybe instead of jumping to conclusions and condemning an entire collection of people "CDPR are transphobic" we should allow creatives to show us or tell us, perhaps give them the benefit of the doubt and not take things out of context until we have a more complete picture and understanding, otherwise we risk completely stifling creative voices from exploring uncomfortable, controversial, finge or taboo subjects.

In 24 hours this game has gone from a transphobic and racist alt-right piece of propaganda to "hyper-progressive".

Jesus H. Christ

Who is calling this game hyper-progressive? What I'm mostly seeing is trans writers and posters talking about why this ad plays into some unfortunate stereotypes that undermine its point. I'm also seeing people critiquing how they are depicting various minorities in this game. Maybe there is a middle ground, where people can think that this game is trying to take on difficult subjects, and from the material they are presenting to the public, there is room to criticize how they are handling it.

The company has made some mistakes with how they handled the tweet incident, and some people feel like that has cost them the assumption that they are going to handle their representation well. If they do, that will be great, but they are not owed public faith from what they have presented and said.
 

whitehawk

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,452
Canada
You understand this isn't some enlightened post right:

Controversy isn't hard to manufacture nor is it worthy of praise by itself. Unless for some reason you think everything that offends people is some high art piece worthy of being called thought provoking. The inclusion of loot boxes in games isn't exactly thought provoking but it's discussed repeatedly on the forum.

Also if this is some 'Im being literal, people are talking about it thus they're thinking about it' then ok, I guess. Thought provoking isn't really applied to literally everything that provokes a thought though, since that's most of everything.
ok here's where I stand.

There is still a lot about the game we don't know. Hopefully they handle it well by the time they release.

If this was an ad we saw in real life, it would be very problematic. None of us would stand for it and it would likely be pulled very quickly.

Being in this game/art, it's depicting a world where the terrible is accepted, or at least forced into the population via the powers of corporations in this world. It's not far fetched that corporate welfare > countrymen welfare; we see it today all the time.

This poster in this context can both be offensive, and also okay. It would be like watching "Idiocracy" and getting offended by the things that happen in that universe. It's supposed to be jarring/offensive/different.

I'm looking forward to seeing reviews when the game comes out and learning more about the entire world they have created.
 

derder

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
371
I think that's the first time I've ever seen a sexualized dick and a video game ever, trans or not
 

derFeef

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,352
Austria
General hint to some people that feel smart.
If people feel discriminated, they, by a very good chance, got discriminated.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,896
Cyberpunk (the genre) definitely has a lot of potential to explore what gender identity means in a time of cybernetic body modification. And sure, the sexual aspect of that can definitely be part of it. I just wish it had been represented in a way other than "yo, check out the dick on this chick".
 

gozu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,296
America
I can see what she was trying to do, I hope people can move on from this
learn > move on

To quote @jaffameister: "Ultimately, the lesson here is that in order for trans representation to be done right, trans people need to be involved in the decision-making process." Want to talk about us? Put us in the room. We know how to talk about gender in a meaningful way.
 

Deleted member 12447

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,173
I think watching this unfold for the last two days has made me realize that while I consider myself progressive. Hell I'm not even sure I used progressive right. I'm simply not educated enough in this field to form a proper opinion on this matter.

So, why post at all then? By saying something I am taking the first step in acknowledging that I am part of the problem. Unfortunately no amount of reading material, or forum posts are going to give me the knowledge that I feel I need. As an undecided straight white male I am planning to attend the Pride Parade here in Baltimore on Saturday in order to hopefully gain a better understanding of the whole community and culture.

I was raised in the 80s and 90s mostly where saying "That's gay" was the norm in my social circle and while I realize it's offensive, I personally never intended to be homophobic with it. I mean I don't even truly understand what gay is TO even be homophobic. Now that does not mean it was not offensive even if nobody was there to be offended by it. Unfortunately even today I still find myself slipping and saying that. I ask for your patience as I become better informed in this matter and strive to become a better person daily. As a person I will make mistakes, repeatedly but bear with me as even at upper 30s I am still learning and growing. I believe in Gay and Trans rights, including hot button issues like serving in the military and marriage even if I personally do not even believe in the idea of marriage at all. People should be free to decide.

Now, how this relates to CDPR and my response on this issue is that I truly believe in expressing yourself through entertainment. The good, bad and ugly sides of life. While many people wish the game were to be represented in a perfect world lens, or to even take their personal struggles into account more; this doesn't even happen right now today. Games, movies and music often reflect this directly or indirectly. The fact is that at some point some company has or will do the exact same thing as CDPR has done with this and absurdly sexualize it. It happens right now in the porn industry daily. At the end of the day CDPR saying "However, this model is used — their beautiful body is used — for corporate reasons" is how CDPR themselves are ALSO using that model. Whether that's a good thing or not I can't say without seeing the full picture and I absolutely understand people who don't want to gamble on that and decide not to even play their game based on their previous history.

If nothing nothing else good came of this whole issue, at the very least you guys here at Era have made me aware that I have not been doing enough to learn about the gay and trans communities. Hopefully I am not being offensive with this very sensitive matter and my thoughts are coming through well enough. It is very difficult to approach this subject through written words. I strive to live by the mantra that each day we should aim to be better than we were the day before.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,074
UK
When you got extreme right transphobes being happy with the advertising and playing into the cis gaze of trans porn fantasy where the penis works just like a cis man, gender binary character customisation, no positive trans or genderqueer character shown yet, a faction called "Animals" being predominantly black people and black accents being made fun of, it's hard to give CD Projekt Red the benefit of the doubt on social commentary. It doesn't seem the developer had trans consultants. I don't see the punk.

Even if the ad is supposed to depict a trans woman or a trans femme in good faith, it's terribly inaccurate in a way that furthers harmful stereotypes already existing in our society. Many trans women cannot maintain erections thanks to hormone replacement therapy, while others can only become somewhat stiff for a short period of time without erectile dysfunction medication. Yet cis people generally assume trans women's penises operate like cis men's until proven otherwise. That stigma is only further reinforced by cis male-centric porn, which expects trans models to use their penises in a way that operates exactly like cis men's dicks.​
In other words, the ad reflects cisgender peoples' current conceptions of trans bodies, so for most cis players, the satire doesn't land. And it calls into question whether CD Projekt Red ever intended the ad to be satirical in the first place. Right-wing gamers clearly didn't think so. Over on 4chan's /pol/, one user posted the ad and proudly declared Cyberpunk 2077 "/ourgame/,"implying the title's politics align with the site's far-right beliefs. And on Gamergate subreddit r/KotakuInAction, users praised the joke and belittled its critics.​
 

Deleted member 3294

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,973
This Twitter thread explains why the "we should see what this is like in the context of the game before really judging how well it's handled" arguments don't really do much for me pretty well:
 

Netherscourge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,894
People should never criticize anything ever.
/s

If your art is having an unintended effect, you're not doing your job very well. At that point you need to step back and ask yourself whether you should make changes to communicate your message better.

That's all ignoring their past history regarding these issues where they have repeatedly refused to take criticism.

No, at that point, they ask themselves if it's worth even attempting to implement it in the first place.

From a business point of view, Cyberpunk doesn't need anything but the usual white-hetero themes to be "safe" and successful.

We don't really know what that game poster portends yet. I think we should give them a chance instead of just assuming derogatory intentions.

The type of backlash we've seen won't make developers more empathetic about it. It'll make them shy away from even attempting to include it.

At least we're having a conversation because of it. That's a good thing, IMO.
 

Hugare

Banned
Aug 31, 2018
1,853
i genuinely believe that this artist is attempting to portray the message that exploiting trans and gender non-conforming people in advertising is gross

that's a pretty salient message, especially this year with the stark contrast between rainbow capitalist celebrations of queer identity juxtaposed with the bankrolling of politicians dismantling LGBTQ+ protections

but i don't think they are succeeding in presenting that message, at all

You are reaching this conclusion from just one ad in a 30+ hours RPG that have not been released yet.

Her explanation was good, but also kinda obvious. In every trailer and bit of info we have, the game sends the message that the main enemies are going to be the big corporations. The ad is overly sexualised in order to sell products. You are not suposed to relate or feel good about it.
 

Alice

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,867
If she's Polish, all nouns and adjectives in the language are gendered. There's a male, female, and "neutral"

That kind of predisposes how you think about the world, if that's your native language.

I'm Ukrainian and even though I've been living in Canada for most of my life, I also struggle with this- simply because my brain's been wired from childhood to categorize things a a certain way. And I've been using English as primary everyday language for the last 19 years of my life.

Don't expect someone who probably doesn't use English regularly to be super gender sensitive oftentimes there's no offense meant through it- your brain just translates things from your native language into English, word-for-word.

I'm German, all our words are gendered in the same fashion, and I've never had these issues? I'd say it's more the general climate in Poland, it's not really all that much of an inclusive country. It's also why I don't really trust CDPR to actually tackle those themes in a satisfactory manner.
 

Yata

Member
Feb 1, 2019
2,959
Spain
This Twitter thread explains why the "we should see what this is like in the context of the game before really judging how well it's handled" arguments don't really do much for me pretty well:


So, what is the solution here? Should this poster be removed from the game to create more outrage, attention and transphobia towards it?
 

Capra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,586
"This ad that plays into existing stereotypes that define how most straight male gamers see trans people is totally going to make them stop and reevaluate their views when they see it in the context of a dystopian future with pretty lights"

Yeah sounds legit
 

Double 0

Member
Nov 5, 2017
7,427
So, what is the solution here? Should this poster be removed from the game to create more outrage, attention and transphobia towards it?

That's a start. They could also hire trans creators and or consultants to assist on ways to make the marketing, overall setting and details within it more inclusive.

Or at the very least, not actively harmful.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,705
You are reaching this conclusion from just one ad in a 30+ hours RPG that have not been released yet.

Her explanation was good, but also kinda obvious. In every trailer and bit of info we have, the game sends the message that the main enemies are going to be the big corporations. The ad is overly sexualised in order to sell products. You are not suposed to relate or feel good about it.

i said they "are" not succeeding, in the present tense

but i don't expect them to do very on the social commentary front in general - i expect it to be treated as set dressing even if the individual artists and writers intend for more

i'm open to being pleasantly surprised, but i'm not getting my hopes up