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Polygon: CDPR responds to sexualized trans advertisement in CyberPunk 2077 (Read Staff Post Before Posting)
- Thread starter BAD
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Listen, having a poster of a person with a foot long metal cock isn't exactly all that thought provoking.
Considering how many posts there are on this forum dedicated to talking about it, I would disagree.
The entire issue is it's the first in-game representation of a non-binary person that in context of the game is pure fetishization that was featured in a tech demo by pure coincidence.
It's more than that, they have that same ad posted in their E3 booth.
You can't be so delusional you believe this conversation was their intention.
They do? The only time I've seen this was during the Nvidia demo/screen shots.
It's mentioned in the linked Polygon story, and there's pictures of it floating around on twitter.
It's easy to miss in the Polygon story, because it's part of a photo caption.
Not sure how they didn't think to call that out in the text of the piece.
l It literally provokes a 14 page thread here. so its provoking something.
And Milo trying to spew hate at a college causes dozens of pages in threads.
That doesn't mean the content is deep or insightful, it just means it's controversial to people
I'm on board with all that and I agree that with their history and lack of visible effort to genuinely improve on these issues their intention(or lack of intention) with this imagery is something to worry about.
The intent of the poster is fine, but it does not get to be viewed in a vacuum. Between the tweets and non apologies that have come out of the company, the use of stereotypes in how they are handling people of color, the lack of non binary options for players, there is no guarantee this poster is going to be anything more than an exploitative background asset. Discussion of fetishization and exploitation of the trans experience, how the corporations of this setting exploit body modification can be uncomfortable and thought provoking. However, not showing any other examples of the trans experience in any of their content, and choosing to lead with this poster indicates that they are more trying to be edgy and provocative then actually explore this subject in depth. Maybe I'll be wrong, and if so that will be great, but right now it looks like in their attempts to satirize exploitation they have just created more exploitation.
This post says a lot more, and way more eloquently than anything I could write:
One of the major problems with this kind of "intended message" is how CDPR hasn't made an effort to show us if this kind of social commentary is going to be a consistent theme of the game, or just edgy background dressing. If we had an idea about the kind of in-world advertisements could be seen in the game, I may sing a different tune, especially if the language of those ads aligns with the claims made by this artist. It feels like a shallow and undeserved piece of "commentary" (if that's their honest intent).
Additionally, the game really needs representation, and we need to see that in the marketing to know it's a matter they care about. Have characters directly discussing how gross and manipulative ads like this are. Even one dissenting voice goes a long way (as long as their existence in the game isn't another joke at the expense of others). That's not me saying "one token trans person is good enough", just "this is the bare minimum". As we've seen with reactions to this ad on Reddit and other awful forums, this kind of commentary has no meaning if people take it immediately at face value (and with alt-right jackasses, they love to mock trans people, so they're eating it up).
If there's one thing that's struck me about everything I've seen regarding Cyberpunk 2077, it's that CDPR's been showing off a lot more "cyber" than they have been "punk". I haven't exactly kept my eyes glued to every trickle of information about the game, but I have paid attention, and nothing's coming to my mind that immediately screams, "this game embodies the themes of cyberpunk", rather, it looks more like a surface-level, "wow, cool future!" reading of the genre. Tech-noir, if you will. They've showed body modification in the game, but the way marketing has pushed it, it seems to be more for "modifying your body to suit your interests is cool" than "the more you alter yourself, the more you distance yourself from your humanity".
i genuinely believe that this artist is attempting to portray the message that exploiting trans and gender non-conforming people in advertising is gross
that's a pretty salient message, especially this year with the stark contrast between rainbow capitalist celebrations of queer identity juxtaposed with the bankrolling of politicians dismantling LGBTQ+ protections
but i don't think they are succeeding in presenting that message, at all
the problem here is that they are just extrapolating current day social norms onto the cyberpunk future instead of thinking about how social norms would change due to the widespread availability of that technology
an edgy dystopian future advertisement wouldn't be called "ChroManticore ;)" or advertise the concept of "Mixing it up ;)" in a society where non-binary representation and transformative body-modifications are normalized... because there's nothing edgy about it in-universe any more! that sort of ad certainly wouldn't be trying to offend 2019 sensibilities in 2077, in the same way that our advertisements of today don't play Elvis songs when they're trying to be edgy.
similarly, i think the issue with non-binary representation is going to be that the game is going to look at the topic from today's viewpoint and the analysis will end at "wow, in the future some people are non-binary and no one judges them! wow!" only to be contradicted by a villain who hates non-binary people and inexplicably sounds like an extremely online trad from 2019 because he's a stand-in for the bigots of today
maybe we'll also get "but maybe too much human augmentation results in people losing their Capital H Humanity, though we're not going to draw a clear stance on this because cool future!" but my expectations are set very low
i haven't actually played that game, but this reminds me of the controversy surrounding David Cage's Robot Martin Luther King: The Game - an attempt was made to make a positive statement like "racism is bad" but the attempt was so contrived and bungled it managed to do much more harm than good and managed to invoke a bunch of racist imagery in the process
i'd really love a game where you can just Be Non-Binary and no one gives you shit for it, but i have a feeling this won't be that game
that's a pretty salient message, especially this year with the stark contrast between rainbow capitalist celebrations of queer identity juxtaposed with the bankrolling of politicians dismantling LGBTQ+ protections
but i don't think they are succeeding in presenting that message, at all
the problem here is that they are just extrapolating current day social norms onto the cyberpunk future instead of thinking about how social norms would change due to the widespread availability of that technology
an edgy dystopian future advertisement wouldn't be called "ChroManticore ;)" or advertise the concept of "Mixing it up ;)" in a society where non-binary representation and transformative body-modifications are normalized... because there's nothing edgy about it in-universe any more! that sort of ad certainly wouldn't be trying to offend 2019 sensibilities in 2077, in the same way that our advertisements of today don't play Elvis songs when they're trying to be edgy.
similarly, i think the issue with non-binary representation is going to be that the game is going to look at the topic from today's viewpoint and the analysis will end at "wow, in the future some people are non-binary and no one judges them! wow!" only to be contradicted by a villain who hates non-binary people and inexplicably sounds like an extremely online trad from 2019 because he's a stand-in for the bigots of today
maybe we'll also get "but maybe too much human augmentation results in people losing their Capital H Humanity, though we're not going to draw a clear stance on this because cool future!" but my expectations are set very low
i haven't actually played that game, but this reminds me of the controversy surrounding David Cage's Robot Martin Luther King: The Game - an attempt was made to make a positive statement like "racism is bad" but the attempt was so contrived and bungled it managed to do much more harm than good and managed to invoke a bunch of racist imagery in the process
i'd really love a game where you can just Be Non-Binary and no one gives you shit for it, but i have a feeling this won't be that game
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The question here is, does the character interact with this, can we be negative towards it, can we do more? Or is this, at the end of the day, just set dressing? <- worst case scenario, and right now, I think what's gonna happen.
First, Ana Valens' Daily Dot piece, shared here earlier, is really excellent. It's the #1 thing to read about this, that I've found so far.
Also found myself nodding along to her tweet here (couldn't make it embed correctly so I took a screencap) and the embedded snippet from her article:
Nice to see another trans person comin' away thinkin' the CDPR artist doesn't know the first thing about real-life trans people. It really feels that way. It's like she's talking about theoretical gender aliens or something. And let's note what kind of depiction that resulted in.
Also found myself nodding along to her tweet here (couldn't make it embed correctly so I took a screencap) and the embedded snippet from her article:
main tweet:
To quote@jaffameister: "Ultimately, the lesson here is that in order for trans representation to be done right, trans people need to be involved in the decision-making process." Want to talk about us? Put us in the room. We know how to talk about gender in a meaningful way.
text of tweet's embedded screencap, a quote from Valens' Daily Dot article:
"Redesiuk talks in such a way as it feels like she rarely interacts with trans people, if at all," Johnson explained. "I think she genuinely does want to make an earnest and genuine portrayal of representation in Cyberpunk. She clearly needs to talk to us more and understand us better before trying to act on that, but I think she wants to do good. That desire to do something good for trans people doesn't seem to be shared with the rest of the studio, though."
The problem here isn't the trans body. It's how the game depicts that body, frames it for cis players' amusement, and does so at trans peoples' expense. In Johnson's case, CD Projekt's past behavior weighed heavily on her initial interpretation of the joke, and she called it a "continuation of CD Projekt Red's tone-deaf disregard for trans people." For players who miss Redesiuk's commentary, it's likely they'd walk away with the same first impression she did.
"Ultimately, the lesson here is that in order for trans representation to be done right, trans people need to be involved in the decision-making process," she explained. "It's pretty apparent that CD Projekt Red hasn't consulted trans people when making these decisions, and in a genre that has evolved to where it is today—rich with queer culture—that's a deeply disappointing oversight."
To quote
text of tweet's embedded screencap, a quote from Valens' Daily Dot article:
"Redesiuk talks in such a way as it feels like she rarely interacts with trans people, if at all," Johnson explained. "I think she genuinely does want to make an earnest and genuine portrayal of representation in Cyberpunk. She clearly needs to talk to us more and understand us better before trying to act on that, but I think she wants to do good. That desire to do something good for trans people doesn't seem to be shared with the rest of the studio, though."
The problem here isn't the trans body. It's how the game depicts that body, frames it for cis players' amusement, and does so at trans peoples' expense. In Johnson's case, CD Projekt's past behavior weighed heavily on her initial interpretation of the joke, and she called it a "continuation of CD Projekt Red's tone-deaf disregard for trans people." For players who miss Redesiuk's commentary, it's likely they'd walk away with the same first impression she did.
"Ultimately, the lesson here is that in order for trans representation to be done right, trans people need to be involved in the decision-making process," she explained. "It's pretty apparent that CD Projekt Red hasn't consulted trans people when making these decisions, and in a genre that has evolved to where it is today—rich with queer culture—that's a deeply disappointing oversight."
Nice to see another trans person comin' away thinkin' the CDPR artist doesn't know the first thing about real-life trans people. It really feels that way. It's like she's talking about theoretical gender aliens or something. And let's note what kind of depiction that resulted in.
Yeah.
I'm actually really curious if any of the numerous people who said "Oh, this seems reasonable." on the first page have changed their minds since some trans voices chimed in.
YES, like, I'm not someone's futuristic fucking social experiment.
I'm a human being and I'd like to see someone in a video game who's even a little bit like me without a huge pink arrow calling attention to a body part that A) it's clearly nobody's business to ask about, and B) DOES NOT DEFINE ME OR ANY OTHER TRANS PERSON
Solid post.One of the major problems with this kind of "intended message" is how CDPR hasn't made an effort to show us if this kind of social commentary is going to be a consistent theme of the game, or just edgy background dressing. If we had an idea about the kind of in-world advertisements could be seen in the game, I may sing a different tune, especially if the language of those ads aligns with the claims made by this artist. It feels like a shallow and undeserved piece of "commentary" (if that's their honest intent).
Additionally, the game really needs representation, and we need to see that in the marketing to know it's a matter they care about. Have characters directly discussing how gross and manipulative ads like this are. Even one dissenting voice goes a long way (as long as their existence in the game isn't another joke at the expense of others). That's not me saying "one token trans person is good enough", just "this is the bare minimum". As we've seen with reactions to this ad on Reddit and other awful forums, this kind of commentary has no meaning if people take it immediately at face value (and with alt-right jackasses, they love to mock trans people, so they're eating it up).
If there's one thing that's struck me about everything I've seen regarding Cyberpunk 2077, it's that CDPR's been showing off a lot more "cyber" than they have been "punk". I haven't exactly kept my eyes glued to every trickle of information about the game, but I have paid attention, and nothing's coming to my mind that immediately screams, "this game embodies the themes of cyberpunk", rather, it looks more like a surface-level, "wow, cool future!" reading of the genre. Tech-noir, if you will. They've showed body modification in the game, but the way marketing has pushed it, it seems to be more for "modifying your body to suit your interests is cool" than "the more you alter yourself, the more you distance yourself from your humanity".
Even if CDPR didn't have the questionable history in regards with their public mentions of race and transphobia, they (and the industry at large) warrant the scrutiny in how they approach these topics. And right now, their approach is purely an ad "for flavor". If we saw the game have a dialogue about gender identity or body modification through quest design or dialogue? That would be something to back up their intent. Right now, it's hard to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Straight white dude here. I thought the statement was good, but there was a lot about it that bothered me and kept mulling it over but couldn't articulate what it was that bothered me. I appreciated the continuing discussion and the Daily Dot piece and I have since come back around. It's perspective I needed and wouldn't have been able to find myself.
There should be a rule that whenever companies try to depict something about minorities that there should be at least 5 people from that minority group in the room to offer insight. Otherwise... just don't do it.
Absolutely yes, thank you for taking the time to write great posts on the subject. I'm sorry for belittling the trans community's experience.
This is a wildly outdated concept that has no place in modern cyberpunk (not that it ever belonged in it). Detachment from humanity shouldn't be simplified into something that could be induced through prosthetics. It's the kind of short-sighted interpretation of body modification that led a Cyberpunk 2020 spin-off sourcebook to assign a "humanity cost" to sex reassignment surgery.
If that actually was a core theme of the genre, then holy cow, did Neuromancer miss the point of cyberpunk.
Projecting out where this philosophy leads (not being a 100% original birth-state human leads to madness and disconnect from existence,) I bet the world of Cyberpunk 2077 treats clones and sentient AIs like dogshit, either subtly or overtly.
And if it doesn't, it probably should.
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Appreciate hearing some trans folks explaining their reactions to this.
Feels like a lot of the trouble here ultimately stems from not giving non-binary people any agency as characters to play within a game world that depicts them.
Really wish the devs would clearly include that level of player customization as an option from the get go.
(Do we know for a fact that they don't? That artist's interview — which I read as honest and thoughtful despite the clumsy language — is confusing on this matter.)
Feels like a lot of the trouble here ultimately stems from not giving non-binary people any agency as characters to play within a game world that depicts them.
Really wish the devs would clearly include that level of player customization as an option from the get go.
(Do we know for a fact that they don't? That artist's interview — which I read as honest and thoughtful despite the clumsy language — is confusing on this matter.)
The "ChroMantic0re" ad shows a feminine presenting person drinking a fictional product called ChroManticore, with the phrases "MIX IT UP" and "16 flavours you'd love to mix" surrounding their bottom half. The puns don't necessarily make sense at first. But then you look down at the model's crotch where they have an enormous erection in their leotard. Nothing is left to the imagination in the photo. It's extremely sexually explicit.
There is no player customisation when you have a main character who is a *character* not a blank slate.
If you want customisation you give up on characterisation and vice versa, you can't have both. Nobody should be forced to make every main character of a game a blank slate just to be inclusive.
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Honestly it seems there is not much to be said about this, it seems like people are overreacting about how trans people are portrayed because they can *only* see a single piece of sexualisation, because they don't actually have the game.
The overreaction stems from the fact currently 100% of all material related to trans people in Cyberpunk is sexualised.
...and yeah the game isn't out yet, go figure the one and only piece of content is being treated as representative of the whole experience.
Just seems like a gross overreaction from mining every single scrap of visible content for click throughs and something to talk about.
Judge a game when it is actually out, there's far too much attention paid to pre-release material IMO and not enough to all the games that are actually released.
You've got no idea if that is the case. The 48 minute demo isn't necessarily the start of the game. It's a short part of what is probably going to be a 30-50 hour title.
As for pure coincidence, well, they wanted to show off a snippet of the city and advertising is going to be prominent in said scene. No one even noticed it at first either considering that demo has been out since August 2018.
The artist is probably happy with her work, I'll assume that, and given she appears to be lead art director I'll also assume they want the sexually explicit nature of the world to be well known.
I mean, they're the ones putting out this material. If there is more representation to be seen, they could have put anything other than a sexually explicit one out there. This is what they wanted the public to see, hell they've apparently put it on the wall of the E3 section. Asking people not to judge based on what is being presented, not to mention the transphobic tweets, is nuts.
They could have shown any kind of positive representation, if it exists in the game, and it probably would have done a lot to make people feel like they were turning the page after the shitty tweets and garbage apology. Instead they put this out there, and there are plenty of accounts from trans users about why they don't like it. I think making a judgment on the material presented is fair game.
For those who still find the image offensive, how would the developer portray an advert from an in game mega corporation in a cyberpunk world that is designed to be lurid and grab your attention without also creating an image that is offensive?
I can see where those who do find it offensive are coming from, but I'm struggling to see how they can make the same point without just removing the trans person
As a cis man this isn't really an area I'm an expert on, so any insight would be appreciated
I can see where those who do find it offensive are coming from, but I'm struggling to see how they can make the same point without just removing the trans person
As a cis man this isn't really an area I'm an expert on, so any insight would be appreciated
Wtf are you talking about?
Do even realize what kind of game this is? Do you have any idea how important that customization is to the experience of playing a cyberpunk role-playing game? Do you even know what this game is supposed to be based on?
It's like you're completely erasing the origins of the whole game, and why character creation is even included in the first place.
So, what, they're allowed to put out whatever the fuck they want and we're not allowed to criticize any of it? Yeah, nah, not havin' it.
And it's so fuckin' grand to see yet another cis person proclaiming our genuine reactions as "overreaction". So fuckin' grand.
Simple: show positive representation alongside the negative. They chose to show this as the only piece of trans representation we have in the pre-release marketing materials. That says a whole hell of a lot.
and?
the game is 18+ and plays in a cyberpunk world which is sexually explicit as a default. sex sells-also in this future. this is an advertisement.
i still think that this energy drink gives you a boner all night like a liquid viagra drink and therefore it is an explicit ad.
people are taking this ad out of the context, you can´t look at the advertisement without looking at the ingame universe where this ad makes sense.
This has been broken down and elaborated upon repeatedly throughout two threads.
That was an assumption, and some people like myself thought it because another ad is for breast and penis implants.
But going on what the artist said this one literally is just a soda ad that uses sex appeal to sell like any generic ad for something today. Like the old diet coke ads I guess that had naked dudes in them. Straight of course.
The difference in the Cyberpunk world is supposed to be not only cis men and women are used in sexual advertising.
"Taking it out of context", meanwhile CDPR are doing zero to provide context or elaborate upon their allegedly well considered and nuanced take on gender identity and trans and non-binary people. Despite knowing full well their relationship with the LGBTQ+ community and past comments.
They've earned zero reason to be given the benefit of the doubt, they're not outwardly reassuring the community they've previously mocked and what has been shown isn't great.
They've earned zero reason to be given the benefit of the doubt, they're not outwardly reassuring the community they've previously mocked and what has been shown isn't great.
Yeah and I'm hoping the game does do this, but does that mean if the game does show positive trans representation in the final product, that the picture no longer becomes offensive, or is it less so with context?
I appreciate the point that this is the only thing they have really highlighted so far, and when coupled with some of the companies previous comments it doesn't bode well, so I can completely understand why anyone would be suspicious or wary of how this will be expressed in the final product
I'm cis and I thought the image was pretty on the nose, and then after the explanation from the developer decided to wait and see how the game as a whole deals with these issues before either praising or condemning it
User Banned (1 Month): Dismissing Concerns About Transphobia and Misrepresenting Other Users; Prior Severe Infraction Related to Transphobia
The fact that developers can't explore themes like this without being immediately attacked is fucking sad, imo. It's shameful. Especially a developer like CDPR that explores themes other developers don't even dare to explore. It's all about grey zones and letting you decide for yourself: what's good, what's wrong (if that even exists).
What does everyone expect? A super safe, focus tested game? No cursing, nudity, violence, exploration of LGBT+ themes? Just a bland, PG13 game?
Extreme violence? Let's make a thread about how developers / artists should tone back the violence. They must be condoning this behaviour.
Cursing? Let's make a thread about it. How dare this - obviously written as an evil, villainous character - use curse words that they would probably fucking use IRL?! How do they fucking DARE?!
Exploration of LGBT+ themes? Let's immediately attack them, they must be homophobic / transphobic as fuck.
Does anyone realize that it's disrespectful to the people working there that you are all attacking them without giving them the benefit of the doubt? That there are LGBT+ people working there that are now immediately cornered by a mob as if they're working at a shitty, disrespectful place?
I think this trend of immediately ASSUMING the absolute worst is EXTREMELY toxic, and that's what we want to avoid in the first place, right? Stop jumping the gun.
What does everyone expect? A super safe, focus tested game? No cursing, nudity, violence, exploration of LGBT+ themes? Just a bland, PG13 game?
Extreme violence? Let's make a thread about how developers / artists should tone back the violence. They must be condoning this behaviour.
Cursing? Let's make a thread about it. How dare this - obviously written as an evil, villainous character - use curse words that they would probably fucking use IRL?! How do they fucking DARE?!
Exploration of LGBT+ themes? Let's immediately attack them, they must be homophobic / transphobic as fuck.
Does anyone realize that it's disrespectful to the people working there that you are all attacking them without giving them the benefit of the doubt? That there are LGBT+ people working there that are now immediately cornered by a mob as if they're working at a shitty, disrespectful place?
I think this trend of immediately ASSUMING the absolute worst is EXTREMELY toxic, and that's what we want to avoid in the first place, right? Stop jumping the gun.
She says that person in the ad is powerful and sexy, but ad in itself is ugly and exploitative. So ad can be... both? Kinda. She is bold and empowered, but used for something ugly.
User Banned (1 Week): Dismissing Concerns About Transphobia and Misrepresenting Other Users
Totally agree with this post and kudos to cd project red for responding so quickly and with such a great answer.
This is madness... their making a videogame, their not re-writing the law or something.
Its 18+ for a reason and if people are easilly offended its better for them to stay away from certain products.
I think it's sad and shameful you're having a meltdown over people discussing something on an enthusiast gaming forum.
Especially when that discussion is about trans and non binary representation in a game made by a company that has outwardly mocked that community in the past.
You know it's super revealing when people praise a big vidja company for "exploring" LGBT themes based on a single interview without actually knowing what's in the game, and then turn around and tell actual trans posters to shut the fuck up because their anxieties over being negatively represented by a company that has publically shat on them in the past were always totally unfounded outrage culture