Thank you, I will have a look!If you're genuinely interested in how it's more than a single tweet then I wrote a post that would help provide context. It's pretty long but there's subheadings to make it easier to read.
Thank you, I will have a look!If you're genuinely interested in how it's more than a single tweet then I wrote a post that would help provide context. It's pretty long but there's subheadings to make it easier to read.
I just got finished reading this actually, and it's really comprehensive. Brilliant, arguably required reading for this thread.
There's one thing she missed, and frankly, that I missed as well until I read this article. And frankly, once I made the realization, the in-game ad only became worse.
The drink isn't "ChromantiCure", it's "ChroManticore", as in, "chromosomes" (a favorite argument of biotruthers) and "manticore". You know, the mythological monster that's a whole bunch of different animals collected into one abominable creature.
In other words, the drink is likening gender-non-conforming people to manticores, and directly acknowledges the concept of chromosomes.
I advise you read all my other posts in this thread, because I already addressed that PR excuse earlier, and I'm not keen on repeating myself for yet another person who wants to brush my grievances away.But that's exactly her point. She says that it's meant to be sexually exploitative and that it's meant to be viewed critically. Of course, it's impossible for us to say at this point whether the game will actually succeed at presenting it in a critical light (and after the tweets and stuff, I don't blame anyone for thinking it won't, I've got my doubts about it, too) but if we take her at her word, then at least the intention here is to criticise the very thing you're disgusted by.
I edited my post afterward to address the world, not in time to catch the reply though!It genuinely isn't a space for prolonged exploration of these themes more than any other single art asset in the game regardless of who it features. It's a part of a world, and one which clearly views trans people differently on some level than out own as per the latter part of the same post this is something that wouldn't happen in our current world for actually and blatantly homophobic reasons.
Whether it does lead into a wider nuanced theme and includes well written trans and non-binary characters is left to be seen, but there's nothing to suggest that's the case at the moment and they've earned the critical eye of the community over these issues.
It would be great if you could put the same energy your using to defend a transphobic company into defending trans people.I see one tweet and they apologized for it. Its really hard to navigate this space correctly, mistakes get made, but I wont vilify a developer just because they made one mistake before when handling a complex issue like this in a game where its really easy to pull things out of context. Its a brave thing to tackle these subjects and I think they deserve some slack, especially when positioning them in complex narrative political situations they are building in this world
The article Heartimecia posted is pretty thorough and includes both of their transphobic tweets. What it doesn't include is their refusal to publicly apologize for the second second one (which, considering the context behind that tweet, was especially cruel). The did (quietly) fire the asshole behind the tweets, however.I am genuinely not lying, I don't follow every developer to the teeth or envelop my life following 100% of all game news. I only know about that one tweet, but cool to attack me personally assuming my intelligence.
A friend and one of the most prominent trans voices in journalism (especially games journalism) just posted this piece, and it's a highly recommended read because she is super fab at dissecting these kinds of issues, exploring their nuances, and just generally at her job as a writer:
Some great quotes from the article are:
-"In other words, the ad isn't jarring because of its capitalist ideals. It's because of its trans model's penis."
-"So for players who read the model as a trans woman, it's as if she's visibly thrusting one of her most stigmatized body parts onto others, like she wants the viewer to recognize her penis in its entire length and girth. It makes the model, not the society they live in, seem predatory."
-"Even if the ad is supposed to depict a trans woman or a trans femme in good faith, it's terribly inaccurate in a way that furthers harmful stereotypes already existing in our society."
"But it's unlikely that Cyberpunk 2077 will bring about the change Cole or Baker-Whitelaw want, because its own creator seems happy with capitalism as it stands today."
-"So before CD Projekt starts playing with gender in hamfisted ways, perhaps the company should look to itself, and question whether it's perpetuating the very same capitalist dystopian fantasy Cyberpunk 2077 is, on the surface, trying to critique."
I'd classify calling the existance of trans people as "politics we shouldn't talk about because all we have to say are negative things" as a transphobic tweet too, and that was the supposed apology, so really there are three offending tweets, but now I'm being pedanticThe article Heartimecia posted is pretty thorough and includes both of their transphobic tweets. What it doesn't include is their refusal to publicly apologize for the second second one (which, considering the context behind that tweet, was especially cruel). The did (quietly) fire the asshole behind the tweets, however.
I'd recommend you read the entire article.
that's some good shit right there
You're telling a trans woman to her face that she should just lie down and accept what this company is doing and I'm having none of it. No, I don't give a shit if you didn't know I was trans before. This site is supposed to be friendly to those issues as a default, and you are exceptionally unfriendly to them. I'm tried of people like you who think they've got it all figured out and are content to say "Hey, this is okay with me, therefore this should be okay for everybody".
Don't want to be caught out? Don't comment on shit you know nothing about as if you're an authority.
Good point. Agreed.I'd classify calling the existance of trans people as "politics we shouldn't talk about because all we have to say are negative things" as a transphobic tweet too, and that was the supposed apology, so really there are three offending tweets, but now I'm being pedantic
I imagine they wouldn't need to, but my point is more: if CDPR actually wanted to make transgender people commonly accepted in the game's world, they would have highlighted that. And considering that when asked about having more gender fluidity options in the character creator their answer was just that it's "something they looked at", I kinda doubt that they put that much thought into transgender people in their world.Not sure how to answer this given that life doesn't directly mirror of the blatant exaggerations things brands think we want or want to be now. I typically don't too closely follow games I'm interested in too closely because I want as much as possible to be revealed by the final product but in the reality portrayed by the game I'd expect that trans people don't just go around wearing bright neon badges advertizing anything more than anyone else.
Maybe that's an odd expectation on my part.
Only on twitter...and resetera ofc.I feel like any game that attempts to approach something uncomfortable seems to inevitably get backlash these days even if it was the intended message. I don't know but it's starting to feel like every dev needs to put a disclaimer with these things which would be unfortunate.
There's one thing she missed, and frankly, that I missed as well until I read this article. And frankly, once I made the realization, the in-game ad only became worse. On the drink in the ad, it's the first C and M that are larger than the rest of the logo, not both Cs. In other words, the drink isn't "ChromantiCure", it's "ChroManticore", as in, "chromosomes" (a favorite argument of biotruthers) and "manticore". You know, the mythological monster that's a whole bunch of different animals collected into one abominable creature.
In other words, the drink is likening gender-non-conforming people to manticores, and directly acknowledges the concept of chromosomes.
I'm happy to help.Update: she's updating the article. Linked her to your reply, as well. :) Thank you for that super eagle-eyed observation.
I edited my post afterward to address the world, not in time to catch the reply though!
Needs to be in the OP. Great article and can't wait to read the revision.A friend and one of the most prominent trans voices in journalism (especially games journalism) just posted this piece, and it's a highly recommended read because she is super fab at dissecting these kinds of issues, exploring their nuances, and just generally at her job as a writer:
Some great quotes from the article are:
-"In other words, the ad isn't jarring because of its capitalist ideals. It's because of its trans model's penis."
-"So for players who read the model as a trans woman, it's as if she's visibly thrusting one of her most stigmatized body parts onto others, like she wants the viewer to recognize her penis in its entire length and girth. It makes the model, not the society they live in, seem predatory."
-"Even if the ad is supposed to depict a trans woman or a trans femme in good faith, it's terribly inaccurate in a way that furthers harmful stereotypes already existing in our society."
"But it's unlikely that Cyberpunk 2077 will bring about the change Cole or Baker-Whitelaw want, because its own creator seems happy with capitalism as it stands today."
-"So before CD Projekt starts playing with gender in hamfisted ways, perhaps the company should look to itself, and question whether it's perpetuating the very same capitalist dystopian fantasy Cyberpunk 2077 is, on the surface, trying to critique."
My trans friends and myself are disgusted with how it's fetishizing and sexually exploitative, in addition to how it generalizes trans people with phrases like "mix it up" and the fact that the drink is called "Chromanticore", alluding to chromosomes (which is a common argument made by biotruthers).
Yeah.
Trans rights are a hot-button issue right now, and especially considering CDPR's past history with sensitive topics like this, I wouldn't allow it at all. This in-game ad doesn't need to exist.
Thanks for sharing, very well written article.A friend and one of the most prominent trans voices in journalism (especially games journalism) just posted this piece, and it's a highly recommended read because she is super fab at dissecting these kinds of issues, exploring their nuances, and just generally at her job as a writer:
Some great quotes from the article are:
-"In other words, the ad isn't jarring because of its capitalist ideals. It's because of its trans model's penis."
-"So for players who read the model as a trans woman, it's as if she's visibly thrusting one of her most stigmatized body parts onto others, like she wants the viewer to recognize her penis in its entire length and girth. It makes the model, not the society they live in, seem predatory."
-"Even if the ad is supposed to depict a trans woman or a trans femme in good faith, it's terribly inaccurate in a way that furthers harmful stereotypes already existing in our society."
"But it's unlikely that Cyberpunk 2077 will bring about the change Cole or Baker-Whitelaw want, because its own creator seems happy with capitalism as it stands today."
-"So before CD Projekt starts playing with gender in hamfisted ways, perhaps the company should look to itself, and question whether it's perpetuating the very same capitalist dystopian fantasy Cyberpunk 2077 is, on the surface, trying to critique."
I know I'm not the person you are asking but: better representation.Hey thanks for your response! On my last question, I would like to know if you believe there is any acceptable way to depict the intended message that the designer stated in her responses?
Jigabachi @ Polygon said:almost like this company has a shit rep with the trans community and has to earn their trust again to do nuanced shit like this
Going back over your posts in this thread, it looks like your main grievance is the tweets? (But please correct me if I overlooked anything.) Which I've addressed in that post. I don't think that those tweets alone prove that this was done in bad faith. They definitely can and should cast doubt on the assertion that it wasn't but not more than that. I am certainly sceptical of their handling of LGBTQ issues (and racism, sexism, you name it) and one can, of course, find this ad offensive regardless of what its creators' intentions were but I disagree with the notion that we can know for a fact that it'll handle them badly based on the information we have at this point. And while I understand that this whole issue is a frustrating one, there's no need to get hostile with me.I advise you read all my other posts in this thread, because I already addressed that PR excuse earlier, and I'm not keen on repeating myself for yet another person who wants to brush my grievances away.
A friend and one of the most prominent trans voices in journalism (especially games journalism) just posted this piece, and it's a highly recommended read because she is super fab at dissecting these kinds of issues, exploring their nuances, and just generally at her job as a writer:
Some great quotes from the article are:
-"In other words, the ad isn't jarring because of its capitalist ideals. It's because of its trans model's penis."
-"So for players who read the model as a trans woman, it's as if she's visibly thrusting one of her most stigmatized body parts onto others, like she wants the viewer to recognize her penis in its entire length and girth. It makes the model, not the society they live in, seem predatory."
-"Even if the ad is supposed to depict a trans woman or a trans femme in good faith, it's terribly inaccurate in a way that furthers harmful stereotypes already existing in our society."
"But it's unlikely that Cyberpunk 2077 will bring about the change Cole or Baker-Whitelaw want, because its own creator seems happy with capitalism as it stands today."
-"So before CD Projekt starts playing with gender in hamfisted ways, perhaps the company should look to itself, and question whether it's perpetuating the very same capitalist dystopian fantasy Cyberpunk 2077 is, on the surface, trying to critique."
There's one thing she missed, and frankly, that I missed as well until I read this article. And frankly, once I made the realization, the in-game ad only became worse. On the drink in the ad, it's the first C and M that are larger than the rest of the logo, not both Cs. In other words, the drink isn't "ChromantiCure", it's "ChroManticore", as in, "chromosomes" (a favorite argument of biotruthers) and "manticore". You know, the mythological monster that's a whole bunch of different animals collected into one abominable creature.
In other words, the drink is likening gender-non-conforming people to manticores, and directly acknowledges the concept of chromosomes.
One of the major problems with this kind of "intended message" is how CDPR hasn't made an effort to show us if this kind of social commentary is going to be a consistent theme of the game, or just edgy background dressing. If we had an idea about the kind of in-world advertisements could be seen in the game, I may sing a different tune, especially if the language of those ads aligns with the claims made by this artist. It feels like a shallow and undeserved piece of "commentary" (if that's their honest intent).Hey thanks for your response! On my last question, I would like to know if you believe there is any acceptable way to depict the intended message that the designer stated in her responses?
Skimmed thread while formulating my response. It's been mentioned in this thread that the explanation, particularly the "there's a spectrum of people in this world" comment, rings really fuckin' hollow when there's a lack of genderfluidity in the character creator. And I agree. The fact there's significant noticeable sexual dimporhism on the gender select screen doesn't do favors either.
So, what, you can use trans people as objects for the sake of satire, but won't even let us play a nonbinary person or, presumably based on said dimorphism, someone who is gender non-conforming?
This is also notable wrt how this is the first definite LGBT character we've seen in game... A non-character. Lol
It's just... Disappointing.
If any trans person feels I'm off base here, say so, but it just feels so hollow.
One of the major problems with this kind of "intended message" is how CDPR hasn't made an effort to show us if this kind of social commentary is going to be a consistent theme of the game, or just edgy background dressing. If we had an idea about the kind of in-world advertisements could be seen in the game, I may sing a different tune, especially if the language of those ads aligns with the claims made by this artist. It feels like a shallow and undeserved piece of "commentary" (if that's their honest intent).
Additionally, the game really needs representation, and we need to see that in the marketing to know it's a matter they care about. Have characters directly discussing how gross and manipulative ads like this are. Even one dissenting voice goes a long way (as long as their existence in the game isn't another joke at the expense of others). That's not me saying "one token trans person is good enough", just "this is the bare minimum". As we've seen with reactions to this ad on Reddit and other awful forums, this kind of commentary has no meaning if people take it immediately at face value (and with alt-right jackasses, they love to mock trans people, so they're eating it up).
If there's one thing that's struck me about everything I've seen regarding Cyberpunk 2077, it's that CDPR's been showing off a lot more "cyber" than they have been "punk". I haven't exactly kept my eyes glued to every trickle of information about the game, but I have paid attention, and nothing's coming to my mind that immediately screams, "this game embodies the themes of cyberpunk", rather, it looks more like a surface-level, "wow, cool future!" reading of the genre. They've showed body modification in the game, but the way marketing has pushed it, it seems to be more for "modifying your body to suit your interests is cool" than "the more you alter yourself, the more you distance yourself from your humanity".
This is a great article thank you for posting it here.A friend and one of the most prominent trans voices in journalism (especially games journalism) just posted this piece, and it's a highly recommended read because she is super fab at dissecting these kinds of issues, exploring their nuances, and just generally at her job as a writer:
Some great quotes from the article are:
-"In other words, the ad isn't jarring because of its capitalist ideals. It's because of its trans model's penis."
-"So for players who read the model as a trans woman, it's as if she's visibly thrusting one of her most stigmatized body parts onto others, like she wants the viewer to recognize her penis in its entire length and girth. It makes the model, not the society they live in, seem predatory."
-"Even if the ad is supposed to depict a trans woman or a trans femme in good faith, it's terribly inaccurate in a way that furthers harmful stereotypes already existing in our society."
"But it's unlikely that Cyberpunk 2077 will bring about the change Cole or Baker-Whitelaw want, because its own creator seems happy with capitalism as it stands today."
-"So before CD Projekt starts playing with gender in hamfisted ways, perhaps the company should look to itself, and question whether it's perpetuating the very same capitalist dystopian fantasy Cyberpunk 2077 is, on the surface, trying to critique."
Interesting so to show how absurdly sexualized ads are they use an overly sexualized minority group to get the point across. Because this group is seen as a vile and disgusting group of people by most men in the world and what better way to depict it then to use this group of people.
Because it's hard to show a vile and disgusting depiction of an ad by using overly sexualised women to get the point across. Since most men would just find it socially acceptable and ok because it's a beautiful woman.
The irony in this is fucked up.
You're welcome. I appreciate your respectful responses. It means a lot.Thank you for your response and POV, I have a lot of thinking to do regarding this.
You can't play as non binary?
Wow, I thought I would finally be able to do it.
Based on the creation screen, you can't. It may change, but I'm not holding my breath.You can't play as non binary?
Wow, I thought I would finally be able to do it.
Really hoping so.If im remembering correctly the last time they spoke of non binary PCs was last year where they said nothing was in stone.
Hopefully they add very easy to include customization options
I'm concerned as to whether or not they'll be able to successfully convey the fact that it's meant to be a contemptible ad within the game's narrative, and whether or not they'll have more positive trans representation to counterbalance it.
I don't think it's reasonable to demand that media should be designed around the possibility that unsavory people might take it out of context and weaponize it.One of the most damning things from the article IMO is how it points out that the ad was almost immediately weaponized by the alt right. They're eating that shit up right now. So even if, somehow, the game ends up delivering the fabled context that makes this work, the fact that they didn't do so now has already given ammunition to the transphobic hate machine.
When you're talking about a community that is as marginalized as trans people are, it's a fucking requirement. Put in the effort or GTFO, imo.I don't think it's reasonable to demand that media should be designed around the possibility that unsavory people might take it out of context and weaponize it.
Yep. If you're going to even consider tackling the subject, consult and constantly be checking yourself on the messaging. Otherwise fuck off with the half-baked shit.When you're talking about a community that is as marginalized as trans people are, it's a fucking requirement. Put in the effort or GTFO, imo.
One of the major problems with this kind of "intended message" is how CDPR hasn't made an effort to show us if this kind of social commentary is going to be a consistent theme of the game, or just edgy background dressing. If we had an idea about the kind of in-world advertisements could be seen in the game, I may sing a different tune, especially if the language of those ads aligns with the claims made by this artist. It feels like a shallow and undeserved piece of "commentary" (if that's their honest intent).
Additionally, the game really needs representation, and we need to see that in the marketing to know it's a matter they care about. Have characters directly discussing how gross and manipulative ads like this are. Even one dissenting voice goes a long way (as long as their existence in the game isn't another joke at the expense of others). That's not me saying "one token trans person is good enough", just "this is the bare minimum". As we've seen with reactions to this ad on Reddit and other awful forums, this kind of commentary has no meaning if people take it immediately at face value (and with alt-right jackasses, they love to mock trans people, so they're eating it up).
If there's one thing that's struck me about everything I've seen regarding Cyberpunk 2077, it's that CDPR's been showing off a lot more "cyber" than they have been "punk". I haven't exactly kept my eyes glued to every trickle of information about the game, but I have paid attention, and nothing's coming to my mind that immediately screams, "this game embodies the themes of cyberpunk", rather, it looks more like a surface-level, "wow, cool future!" reading of the genre. Tech-noir, if you will. They've showed body modification in the game, but the way marketing has pushed it, it seems to be more for "modifying your body to suit your interests is cool" than "the more you alter yourself, the more you distance yourself from your humanity".
I don't think it's reasonable to demand that media should be designed around the possibility that unsavory people might take it out of context and weaponize it.
I don't think it's reasonable to demand that media should be designed around the possibility that unsavory people might take it out of context and weaponize it.
I initially thought the artist's response was a good one, but I couldn't shake the feeling that there was a lot still wrong with it. After sitting with it and thinking about it more, this article reflects where I am now on the subject.A friend and one of the most prominent trans voices in journalism (especially games journalism) just posted this piece, and it's a highly recommended read because she is super fab at dissecting these kinds of issues, exploring their nuances, and just generally at her job as a writer:
[/URL]
Some great quotes from the article are:
-"In other words, the ad isn't jarring because of its capitalist ideals. It's because of its trans model's penis."
-"So for players who read the model as a trans woman, it's as if she's visibly thrusting one of her most stigmatized body parts onto others, like she wants the viewer to recognize her penis in its entire length and girth. It makes the model, not the society they live in, seem predatory."
-"Even if the ad is supposed to depict a trans woman or a trans femme in good faith, it's terribly inaccurate in a way that furthers harmful stereotypes already existing in our society."
"But it's unlikely that Cyberpunk 2077 will bring about the change Cole or Baker-Whitelaw want, because its own creator seems happy with capitalism as it stands today."
-"So before CD Projekt starts playing with gender in hamfisted ways, perhaps the company should look to itself, and question whether it's perpetuating the very same capitalist dystopian fantasy Cyberpunk 2077 is, on the surface, trying to critique."
One of the major problems with this kind of "intended message" is how CDPR hasn't made an effort to show us if this kind of social commentary is going to be a consistent theme of the game, or just edgy background dressing. If we had an idea about the kind of in-world advertisements could be seen in the game, I may sing a different tune, especially if the language of those ads aligns with the claims made by this artist. It feels like a shallow and undeserved piece of "commentary" (if that's their honest intent).
Additionally, the game really needs representation, and we need to see that in the marketing to know it's a matter they care about. Have characters directly discussing how gross and manipulative ads like this are. Even one dissenting voice goes a long way (as long as their existence in the game isn't another joke at the expense of others). That's not me saying "one token trans person is good enough", just "this is the bare minimum". As we've seen with reactions to this ad on Reddit and other awful forums, this kind of commentary has no meaning if people take it immediately at face value (and with alt-right jackasses, they love to mock trans people, so they're eating it up).
If there's one thing that's struck me about everything I've seen regarding Cyberpunk 2077, it's that CDPR's been showing off a lot more "cyber" than they have been "punk". I haven't exactly kept my eyes glued to every trickle of information about the game, but I have paid attention, and nothing's coming to my mind that immediately screams, "this game embodies the themes of cyberpunk", rather, it looks more like a surface-level, "wow, cool future!" reading of the genre. Tech-noir, if you will. They've showed body modification in the game, but the way marketing has pushed it, it seems to be more for "modifying your body to suit your interests is cool" than "the more you alter yourself, the more you distance yourself from your humanity".
I'm all for putting in an effort to understand and be respectful. I'm saying that I don't like the idea of demanding that a piece of content or media should be crafted and designed with the assumption that some alt right fuckers might take it out of context and misrepresent it to hurt people. I actually haven't seen whatever this thing is about so I'm not saying CDPR are without blame, if anything I think there's a good chance this is another fuckup on their part. I'm merely expressing that I don't think changing something - assuming it's well intended and well executed within the full context - just because it might be abused and taken out of context is the right way.When you're talking about a community that is as marginalized as trans people are, it's a fucking requirement. Put in the effort or GTFO, imo.
people would call for a ban of Cyberpunk and all CD Projekt games on ERAWhat's the end goal here? Removal of any and all sexualised assets? How would you respond if CDPR just told us to fuck off?
I'm all for putting in an effort to understand and be respectful. I'm saying that I don't like the idea of demanding that a piece of content or media should be crafted and designed with the assumption that some alt right fuckers might take it out of context and misrepresent it to hurt people. I actually haven't seen whatever this thing is about so I'm not saying CDPR are without blame, if anything I think there's a good chance this is another fuckup on their part. I'm merely expressing that I don't think changing something - assuming it's well intended and well executed within the full context - just because it might be abused and taken out of context is the right way.
There's one thing she missed, and frankly, that I missed as well until I read this article. And frankly, once I made the realization, the in-game ad only became worse. On the drink in the ad, it's the first C and M that are larger than the rest of the logo, not both Cs. In other words, the drink isn't "ChromantiCure", it's "ChroManticore", as in, "chromosomes" (a favorite argument of biotruthers) and "manticore". You know, the mythological monster that's a whole bunch of different animals collected into one abominable creature.
In other words, the drink is likening gender-non-conforming people to manticores, and directly acknowledges the concept of chromosomes.
Oh, now that you point it out, I can see you're right. BIG YIKES. I'll DM her about this right now.