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Jaded Alyx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,350
That too, but, besides that, is it the same for everyone?

Because most games that are getting good rollback are the ones with less graphical fidelity it seems. Skullgirls, Power Rangers, Garou, SF3 Third Strike. MK was only half way through X's life, SFV seems to be flawed, Dragon Ball and Granblue do not have, and Guilty Gear was on it's way to not have also. I'm legit asking, i assumed the implementation could be harder depending on the game's engine.
At this point, with these current consoles, that doesn't really matter. Besides, despite how appealing they look, Dragon Ball, GG, and Granblue are all much less intensive graphically than MK11, Injustice 2, and SFV. Play them on a PC, they are all relatively lightweight in comparison.

And the engine? They're almost all using UE/4
 

Graven

Member
Oct 30, 2018
4,098
At this point, with these current consoles, that doesn't really matter. Besides, despite how appealing they look, Dragon Ball, GG, and Granblue are all much less intensive graphically than MK11, Injustice 2, and SFV. Play them on a PC, they are all relatively lightweight in comparison.

And the engine? They're almost all using UE/4

Indeed, i actually have them on PC, but they are still much more advanced than the games i mentioned previously. I'm just saying, maybe there are more intricacies to this.

I'm all in for GGPO for all fighting games, i'm just pondering that maybe it's not as simple, and would be good if the devs were more transparent concerning the topic, once GGPO becomes universal, maybe crossplay will be the next main topic on demand.
 

MechaX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,040
"additional capital" is laughable when this should have been industry standard for a while now. Its not right to defend developers skimping out on something so important, especially with efforts to demonstrate how its implemented via Japanese translated documentation.

100% agree with this. There is absolutely no reason this shouldn't have been industry standard for as long as GGPO has been around
 

Jaded Alyx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,350
Indeed, i actually have them on PC, but they are still much more advanced than the games i mentioned previously. I'm just saying, maybe there are more intricacies to this.

I'm all in for GGPO for all fighting games, i'm just pondering that maybe it's not as simple, and would be good if the devs were more transparent concerning the topic, once GGPO becomes universal, maybe crossplay will be the next main topic on demand.
My simple theory is that Japanese devs simply had/have very little knowledge of rollback netcode. Every single western developed fighting game of the past however many years, has rollback. From AAA to the smallest indie dev. When Japanese publishers want rollback implemented in retro titles, they use western devs. When certain Japanese execs comment on it, they sound clueless at times. The producer of Under-Night expressed interest due to fan requests, but had to ask on Twitter as he had no idea where to begin. It's only recently that GGPO's documentation and website were even translated into Japanese.

We've had developers on Twitter and this very forum say that it's not a difficult undertaking once it's been planned from the start. The problem has been convincing the Japanese developers to ditch their outdated methods and embrace something betterr.
 

Hanbei

Member
Nov 11, 2017
4,089
Tekken 7's netcode is getting worse and worse with every patch. With the release of 3.30 two days ago, it's now barely playable, even with people from your area, and it's simply not even possible to play at all in some cases. I think lots of Western players will give up on this game soon if nothing is done to fix this mess.
 

Deleted member 42472

User requested account closure
Banned
Apr 21, 2018
729
SFV, MK11 then a big drop off to Killer Instinct and Power Rangers Battle for the Grid and indie fighters below that. Doesn't really matter how popular or not they are as rollback helps in that area if there aren't too many people playing. Well, except SFV with it's ridiculously stingy matchmaking as of last night, but that's a different topic.
Yeah... kind of annoying that all the best fighting games are not that really all that online friendly
 

Snowby

Member
Dec 8, 2019
131
I really hope more fighting game developers start using rollback netcode for their games in the future.Its a shame that both granblue and Dragon ball are great games but have god awful netcode.
 

Keits

Designer at Iron Galaxy Studios
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
124
Orlando, FL
As always, tons of misinformation flying and lots of misinformed folks entering the conversation. I love that you are all passionate enough about this to discuss it, but sometimes I see a post so wildly uninformed that I feel like I need to comment. ArcadePC; I'm not trying to pick on you or anything, I just want to correct the things in your post that don't make any sense (which is pretty much all of it). Hopefully you'll keep learning about the topic. Much love!

Problem with fighting games and online is that you are not certain how things are on the other player side.
Did a move that appeared fine and smooth on your part also happened to the other player?
Did an input recognition register on your part but not to the other player or vice versa?
In cases where both player press multiple buttons and you are not able to hear the clicks, it becomes really confusing and you are not able to tell which ones were registered by the game online.

You aren't sure, but any well made game is sure. If things are different on each end, the game is desynced. Top tier netcode will detect this and end the match. Network engineers and designers work really hard to make sure the game wont desync online, and they do this with tools that let them play online side by side with simulated packet loss and as much delay as they want to really push it and try to break it.

Even the best made games may have desyncs, but those get discovered and patched out as the game gets updated like any other bug removal.

If your inputs are getting lost, its because you are playing a game with poorly made netcode (delay based does this all the time with packet loss). Rollback is built in a way to specifically avoid this from ever happening to you.

Bottom line, this way of thinking about being unsure as to what is happening on the other side is needless. The simulations are synced, you are both playing the same game and seeing the same results. If you are playing a game with well made rollbacks, you are not dropping inputs unless you and your opponent have an absolute nightmare connection, the kind no netcode could hide.

Does you being the host work more favorably when it comes to delay and response time?
Does one player have a better computer with different settings ?

In cases the other player is better such things play a minor part but in case of equal players, even in casual mode, this can make a difference. This happens also on rollback.

Fighting games are Peer to Peer. There is no host and there is no client. Your data comes to me at the same speed my data goes to you. We both run an authoritative version of the game and only send each other inputs and timestamps and such. You don't ever need to worry about host advantage, it isn't a thing.

Fighting games are frame locked. Having a better PC wont give you any advantage. It is possible that having a worse PC that cannot run the game at full framerate could give you an advantage, but many games force you to run a performance test to ensure your rig can run at full framerate before you are even allowed to play online. So you also don't need to worry about PC power.

So, in summary, none of these things are actual worries you need to have and don't actually play a part in P2P online fighting games.
 

Keits

Designer at Iron Galaxy Studios
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
124
Orlando, FL
afaik some games do use servers like Brawlhalla which is a mix of rollback + server

Nearly all server based games use something like rollbacks, usually called corrections. The server is authoritative and if any game client has the game in any position other than the one the server says is the right and real one, it warps things into the place they should be.

I'm pretty sure Brawlhalla is still Peer to Peer, but it uses a server as a connection point to ensure all the players can communicate even if they have direct connection issues (like if your NAT wont let you hit a certain friend, you can use the server as an intermediary because you can both hit that. I think I've read that SFV will do this, falling back on an intermediary server, if two players cannot connect). In this case I'm pretty sure the server isnt running the game and isn't authoritative, its just helping you pass inputs along and the game is doing its P2P rollback thing. Maybe someone from their dev team can correct me if I'm wrong.

Using a server will always add ping time, but it also has the benefit in a 4 player game of having you send your inputs to the server, and having the server send them to the other players. So in this case, you send one set of packets out, and get one set back from the server with everyone else's inputs. Without that, you'd be sending 3 sets of packets with your input out, one to each other player, and getting 3 back from them separately, increasing the bandwidth use of the game by a lot.
 

arcadepc

Banned
Dec 28, 2019
1,925
Keits
Thanks for explanation

I use an example, since you were also involved in the game and also tested it

(edit: my mistake, it was Code Mystics)

I was playing Garou motw on old GGPO and later Fightcade and had issues with doing a specific move, Terry's cancel move (Dragon punch+ab). Didn't use a button shortcut, just pressed 2 keys simultaneously.
I noticed that while offline I could do it, online it would not register at all even if there was no opponent pressure. Opponents could do it though I am not sure if they used more convenient shortcut buttons. Though I know usually player of that lobby are also very good. Does that have more to do with totally different timing or emulation not registering the input correctly requiring different way of input? They were using an outdated version of fba at that time, better suited for WinXP.
When I tried the new version, I noticed inputs where smoother but there was still a difference between timings in online and offline input.
Or is this specific input more sensitive, affected by packet loss?


2nd edit:

Since you were involved in DS Resurrection, I remember back then some discussions at Shoryuken where a user (jedpossum) sent you feedback regarding emulation issues and after the patches released there were still few left. He was the guy who created a hitframebox for the fba version and other hacks for vampire Savior. You answered on the lines that because game is aimed at the commercial market you can not focus on such technical details and minor issues. Thanks for your time!
 
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Keits

Designer at Iron Galaxy Studios
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
124
Orlando, FL
Timings are different online, kinda. The amount of delay you set changes them, but really pushes them back. If delay never changes, like in rollback, and it's always 3, your just frame is always 22 frames or whatever after your special input. Offline that's frame 0 then frame 22. Online you input on 0 and 22 and it comes out on 3 and 25. Same timing for your hands, just feels different visually.

If the delay changes, then all bets are off.
 

Sorel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,518
Timings are different online, kinda. The amount of delay you set changes them, but really pushes them back. If delay never changes, like in rollback, and it's always 3, your just frame is always 22 frames or whatever after your special input. Offline that's frame 0 then frame 22. Online you input on 0 and 22 and it comes out on 3 and 25. Same timing for your hands, just feels different visually.

If the delay changes, then all bets are off.
Thank you for your input :)