Police Shootout With Jewelry Store Robbers Leads To Death Of UPS Driver Hostage And Bystander Motorist

Kendrid · Dec 6, 2019

ddd said:
It's just rational to accept that air holing a vehicle in the middle of a crowded intersection with rounds from 20 different firearms, from wildly different positions, is preferable to letting a jewelry store's insurance kick in and compensate them for the loss. This is good to me, because someone else got injured, and there are no alternative methods to resolving this situation.

they were being shot at following a hostage situation. If it were just diamonds they should have stood down. Easy to arm chair quarterback this. Should they have let them take a hostage and just wait to see what happens? Maybe but that is hard to determine without hindsight.

studyguy · Dec 6, 2019

The video of the chase had something like 80+ marked police vehicles plus like 5 helicopters, likely all aiming for a chance to get some of the action. At some point one has to wonder when it's too many cops. A UPS truck can't go past a certain speed. With how it ended and how many cops were shooting, shocked that more innocents weren't dead in the crossfire.

SapientWolf · Dec 6, 2019

RiOrius said:
What happens if they just say ok bye? Thieves drive off with the loot and the hostage. Maybe they kill him, maybe they don't.

What happens if the police keep the pressure on? Hostage and bystander dead.

Sounds like ok bye is the right play to call, chief. Unless you think those shiny rocks were worth an innocent's life?

The main reason to take hostages is to either negotiate a peaceful surrender or buy some time to escape (since the cops would be hesitant to shoot first). There was no rational reason for the robbers to initiate the shootout unless they wanted to be shot to death.

But if the robbers were allowed to escape they could just kill the hostages later, no one the wiser. It's a much worse situation for them.

ddd · Dec 6, 2019

Honestly shocked at how many people assume that someone stealing material wealth would just automatically and thoughtlessly kill a hostage for no material reason other than they're the Bad Guy, have video games finally rotted our brains?

Uncivilized Elk · Dec 6, 2019

ddd said:
Honestly shocked at how many people assume that someone stealing material wealth would just automatically and thoughtlessly kill a hostage for no material reason other than they're the Bad Guy, have video games finally rotted our brains?

Literally flabbergasted at going to the last page and seeing these "Well it's worse for the hostage if the police don't start a public shoot-out!" responses.

What the fuck.

Anustart · Dec 6, 2019

Fucking sucks. Going to work delivering packages then this happens. Fuck people.

LordDraven · Dec 6, 2019

You're all still blaming cops here? I've seen it all now...

JonesiiiFromtheMoon · Dec 6, 2019

All this for some damn jewelry. Some fucking shiny shit. Did we evolve from fucking crabs?

Einchy said:
They had already shot someone and you think the cops should just let those people go with a hostage?

Well they didnt do too well hostage wise.

pleaseinsertdisctwo · Dec 6, 2019

ddd said:
Honestly shocked at how many people assume that someone stealing material wealth would just automatically and thoughtlessly kill a hostage for no material reason other than they're the Bad Guy, have video games finally rotted our brains?

We get it you've been a thief.

Anustart · Dec 6, 2019

Kurdel said:
I had some american posters here insist that I should defend the 200$ till at my job with my life (or even keep a gun to shoot anyone who wants it lol), and were dumbfounded that the policy in Québec is mostly "let the robber take the cash".

Can't imagine what they think is appropriate to stop a jewelry theft that alread had a casualty. Usually that is license to kill in action movies.

We have quotes for this?

Deleted member 31817 · Dec 6, 2019

Jesus I know people in that area, sad to hear.

HeavenlyOne · Dec 6, 2019

*robs a jewelry store and takes a hostage*

"They were forced to do this!"

"They're just trying to survive!"

Garrett 2U · Dec 6, 2019

Kurdel said:
I had some american posters here insist that I should defend the 200$ till at my job with my life (or even keep a gun to shoot anyone who wants it lol), and were dumbfounded that the policy in Québec is mostly "let the robber take the cash".

Can't imagine what they think is appropriate to stop a jewelry theft that alread had a casualty. Usually that is license to kill in action movies.

Definitely not the case. Many companies have a "Don't be a hero policy."
The police, on the other hand, love to feel powerful.

HeavenlyOne · Dec 6, 2019

If you decide to commit armed robbery, you are not a good person.

If you take a hostage, using them as a human shield, you are not a good person.

The real world isn't good guys versus bad guys. Police being bad guys doesn't make criminals good guys.

"Let them go and take the hostage with them and hope we can catch them again in a secluded area" is as naive as "just shoot them in a limb".

phazedplasma · Dec 6, 2019

ACAB...wow

Our police force is so inept its truly amazing

Rover · Dec 6, 2019

HeavenlyOne said:
If you decide to commit armed robbery, you are not a good person.

If you take a hostage, using them as a human shield, you are not a good person.

The real world isn't good guys versus bad guys. Police being bad guys doesn't make criminals good guys.

"Let them go and take the hostage with them and hope we can catch them again in a secluded area" is as naive as "just shoot them in a limb".

I don't think anybody is calling the thieves and hostage takers good people. But we have courts and trials to deal with them, not a hunt and firing line execution in the streets with a bunch of innocent people at risk of getting caught up in a car wreck or a hail of bullets from the cops.

That was the opposite of good police work and people are dead because of it.

Deleted member 56580 · Dec 6, 2019

Billfisto said:
I mean, yes?

The van most likely had GPS and they had a chopper on it. Don't give them a reason to shoot.

If you're really gung-ho about getting in a big movie shootout, maybe hold off pressuring them until you're not surrounded by civilians.

Also, it's jewellery. People don't steal jewelry to keep it. There's always a chance to try and track it down further down the line.

Also, if you do get involved in a big movie shootout, maybe try and not draw fire towards civilians.

you watch too many movies man

data · Dec 6, 2019

I'm sad to see that this had to happen.

I'm also sad to see that people assume it wouldn't have gone south even if they did let them go.

I definitely think the police shouldn't have been so excessive with the chase but as others have said, everyone wants in on the action and to be the hero.

However, people are way too optimistic about the other scenario. Who's going togl guarantee tha tthey don't kill the hostage? Think about it. They would have to be speaking with him so he can be pulled in as a witness if they needed someone after the trial. If these people are willing to Rob and shoot a bit wildly in the store, no signs show they wouldn't resort to removing their hostage as a potential witness.

However, we would never know. There's just too many factors and usually people act on the moment and not as tactically as we can looking at the situation after it happens since it can be a potentially time sensitive rescue

BabyMurloc · Dec 6, 2019

I like to call it Warhammer 40k logic: better some innocents die, than risk the escape of a ~~heretic~~ criminal.

Geoff · Dec 6, 2019

data said:
I'm sad to see that this had to happen.

I'm also sad to see that people assume it wouldn't have gone south even if they did let them go.

I definitely think the police shouldn't have been so excessive with the chase but as others have said, everyone wants in on the action and to be the hero.

However, people are way too optimistic about the other scenario. Who's going togl guarantee tha tthey don't kill the hostage? Think about it. They would have to be speaking with him so he can be pulled in as a witness if they needed someone after the trial. If these people are willing to Rob and shoot a bit wildly in the store, no signs show they wouldn't resort to removing their hostage as a potential witness.

However, we would never know. There's just too many factors and usually people act on the moment and not as tactically as we can looking at the situation after it happens since it can be a potentially time sensitive rescue

The hostage is in grave danger whatever happens. There is no way to make him safe. Of the possible options, engineering a situation where the Police are firing guns at the hostage, seems sub-optimal. Especially in a crowded public area where other civilians can't easily escape.

Patapuf · Dec 6, 2019

data said:
I'm sad to see that this had to happen.

I'm also sad to see that people assume it wouldn't have gone south even if they did let them go.

I definitely think the police shouldn't have been so excessive with the chase but as others have said, everyone wants in on the action and to be the hero.

However, people are way too optimistic about the other scenario. Who's going togl guarantee tha tthey don't kill the hostage? Think about it. They would have to be speaking with him so he can be pulled in as a witness if they needed someone after the trial. If these people are willing to Rob and shoot a bit wildly in the store, no signs show they wouldn't resort to removing their hostage as a potential witness.

However, we would never know. There's just too many factors and usually people act on the moment and not as tactically as we can looking at the situation after it happens since it can be a potentially time sensitive rescue

The police not only killed the hostage, a bystander died because of the shottout too. Even if we assume the criminals would have killed the hostage anyway that's one person dead that shouldn't have been. And if we want to be technical you could couln't the criminals in that too.

"the job is hard" is not a excuse when people die due to your failure. That amount of people firing live ammunition on a busy street is something not even the military does. That's not being wiser in hindsight, it's basic gun safety rules.

bricewgilbert · Dec 6, 2019

The thieves and the police are both murderers. Only morally clear answer.

GMM · Dec 6, 2019

Seems almost certain that the police killed the poor UPS driver when looking at the videos, the amount of police gunfire could very well have been the reason for the motorist being killed.

All around fucked up situation, but the police did move very recklessly in on the vehicle once it hit the traffic block, just a massive un-coordinated barrage of gunfire in dense traffic. Cops should have stayed their distance once the robbers opened fire on them and planned ahead while following on the helicopter.

No doubt the robbers caused all this, but the police response didn't seem to have helped anything, now some dude doing his job and someone driving somewhere is dead because of it. I'm curious if the cops even knew the UPS driver was being held hostage, or they just assumed everyone in the van was a target.

And as usual the police will not be found to have done anything wrong because they can do no wrong in the US since they are the law.

Geoff · Dec 6, 2019

Queen Calanthe · Dec 6, 2019

*reads thread title* US?

*opens thread* yep, US

Zvonimir Boban · Dec 6, 2019

ACAB.

Also the posts defending the police are mind-boggling. Yeah the robbers might have shot the hostage anyway but that's a maybe.

The police 100% signed his death certificate once they decided they wanted to recreate the Heat shootout scene, as well as that of the bystander killed. They started a shootout in an area full of civilians who had no way of getting away and not only that, THEY TOOK COVER BEHIND CARS THAT HAD CIVILIANS INSIDE.

Anybody defending the actions of the police needs to think again.

Billfisto · Dec 6, 2019

Stabbie said:
you watch too many movies man

It's pretty clear that the cops watch too many movies.

krazen · Dec 6, 2019

https://twitter.com/geneviemerino/status/1202823454178848768?s=21

obv take with a grain of salt like anything on social media, but it hopefully helps the abstract 'ups worker' as if the cops aint murder an actual human

Deleted member 11985 · Dec 6, 2019

Why in the ever living fuck would you start a shootout when the suspect is surrounded by like 30 civilians?

Queen Calanthe · Dec 6, 2019

krazen said:
https://twitter.com/geneviemerino/status/1202823454178848768?s=21

obv take with a grain of salt like anything on social media, but it hopefully helps the abstract 'ups worker' as if the cops aint murder an actual human

Ok, I might be cynical or whatever, but who the fuck finds the time to a montage with music the day her brother died and posts it on twitter?

The hell?

Akira86 · Dec 6, 2019

Queen Calanthe said:
Ok, I might be cynical or whatever, but who the fuck finds the time to a montage with music the day her brother died and posts it on twitter?

The hell?

they have them at funerals all the time, and they aren't that hard to do, and don't take a lot of time if you are familiar with social media.
they call them memorials, or do you think it was the Russians, instead?

Dest · Dec 6, 2019

compo said:
Why in the ever living fuck would you start a shootout when the suspect is surrounded by like 30 civilians?

Police chase, got caught in a traffic jam, suspects sat between the seats, police began to approach the vehicle, suspect fires, they return fire. Eliminate the threat ESPECIALLY when there are more than just the police and the suspect at risk. They just robbed a jewelry store and took a hostage and stole a truck. You have absolutely zero idea what else they were going to do. Video wasn't the clearest, but it looked like the suspects had fired first.

Boogins · Dec 6, 2019

Absolute shame that innocent lives were lost.

Zvonimir Boban · Dec 6, 2019

Dest said:
Police chase, got caught in a traffic jam, suspects sat between the seats, police began to approach the vehicle, suspect fires, they return fire. Eliminate the threat ESPECIALLY when there are more than just the police and the suspect at risk. They just robbed a jewelry store and took a hostage and stole a truck. You have absolutely zero idea what else they were going to do. Video wasn't the clearest, but it looked like the suspects had fired first.

You back the fuck off so the suspects don't feel they have to start shooting.

These cops wanted to be action movie stars instead of helping keep civilians safe.

Deleted member 11985 · Dec 6, 2019

Dest said:
Police chase, got caught in a traffic jam, suspects sat between the seats, police began to approach the vehicle, suspect fires, they return fire. Eliminate the threat ESPECIALLY when there are more than just the police and the suspect at risk. They just robbed a jewelry store and took a hostage and stole a truck. You have absolutely zero idea what else they were going to do. Video wasn't the clearest, but it looked like the suspects had fired first.

I don't know hostage situation tactics, but I'm willing to bet that "eliminate the threat" isn't supposed to be the number one priority. These cops just got all gung-ho and ended up killing two civilians as a result.

Queen Calanthe · Dec 6, 2019

Akira86 said:
they have them at funerals all the time, and they aren't that hard to do, and don't take a lot of time if you are familiar with social media.
they call them memorials, or do you think it was the Russians, instead?

Yes, but I got the impression this happened today, am I wrong? who does this the same day? How do you even function enough to do this

Queen Calanthe · Dec 6, 2019

compo said:
I don't know hostage situation tactics, but I'm willing to bet that "eliminate the threat" isn't supposed to be the number one priority. These cops just got all gung-ho and ended up killing two civilians as a result.

I mean, if they really shot first, what should the cop do?

Akira86 · Dec 6, 2019

Queen Calanthe said:
I mean, if they really shot first, what should the cop do?

duck. clear all bystanders. first things that come to mind.

return all of the fire and maybe include some extra? not my first go to.
which safety algorithm were they running is my only remaining question.
literal public safety, virtual public safety? conceptual public safety?

Queen Calanthe said:
Yes, but I got the impression this happened today, am I wrong? who does this the same day? How do you even function enough to do this

happened yesterday, and she published just after midnight I think.

SliceSabre · Dec 6, 2019

Zvonimir Boban said:
You back the fuck off so the suspects don't feel they have to start shooting.

These cops wanted to be action movie stars instead of helping keep civilians safe.

You are coming at this at the wrong angle because you make it seem like the suspect deserve to not be approach. Of course the police are going to approach the vehicle of robbers.

"don't feel they have to start shooting"

What the fuck is going through your mind to say something like this when they just robbed a bank and carjacked a UPS truck!? Holy shit there's hating the police and just having aggressively bad hot takes like this. If you don't want the police to approach the UPS truck you just carjacked maybe don't rob a jewelry store then carjack and kidnap someone!!!

I don't even like the police but your thoughts on this are insanely naive, crazy and downright dangerous.

LBsquared · Dec 6, 2019

Zvonimir Boban said:
You back the fuck off so the suspects don't feel they have to start shooting.

These cops wanted to be action movie stars instead of helping keep civilians safe.

The suspects shot someone before there was a police presence. There was no way in hell they were just going to let them get away.

Deleted member 11985 · Dec 6, 2019

Queen Calanthe said:
I mean, if they really shot first, what should the cop do?

They shot first because the cops swarmed them. If the hostage situation was in a building and the cops stormed the building, then of course there's going to be a shootout there too.

I guess hindsight is 20/20, but the first thing they should have done is not even allowed a roaming hostage situation to possibly end up in a place where more hostages could be taken. So the UPS truck should've never made it to that intersection in the first place.

But since it did get there, then they should have closed down the intersection and worked on getting all the civilians out of there first.

Queen Calanthe · Dec 6, 2019

Akira86 said:
duck. clear all bystanders. first things that come to mind.

return all of the fire and maybe include some extra? not my first go to.
which safety algorithm were they running is my only remaining question.
literal public safety, virtual public safety? conceptual public safety?

Of course, you duck, but you let a shooter shot in a public area full of people?

If the witnessing is true this seems like a lose lose situation either way. Public safety is threatened is somebody is already shooting

GMM · Dec 6, 2019

Queen Calanthe said:
I mean, if they really shot first, what should the cop do?

Back the fuck up and reassess the situation while they monitor the vehicle, best case scenario would be that the robbers abandon the vehicle once they got off the highway or back them into a corner where there isn't as many civilians all around. The UPS driver was in a fucked situation, but the police signed his death certificate since they moved on the vehicle in a way he was certain to be hit with gunfire from like 20 officers.

Akira86 · Dec 6, 2019

in my opinion the police botched this. but this will ultimately go down as "eh, madworld, isn't it?"

there used to be a desire to avoid public shootouts like this, exactly because you can't control all the variables.
unfortunately, two innocent people became collateral damage in a system of property crime protection services.

I just hope the jewels are safe now.

stumblebee · Dec 6, 2019

It's mind-boggling that some of the answers to 'what should the cops do when the robber shoots first' is to let them keep shooting.

Tpallidum · Dec 6, 2019

Holy shit. You can clearly see the UPS worker trying to crawl out and the police straight up shoot at him because the perp is in front of him. Cops didn't give a fuck that an innocent man was trying to escape behind him

Akira86 · Dec 6, 2019

stumblebee said:
It's mind-boggling that some of the answers to 'what should the cops do when the robber shoots first' is to let them keep shooting.

"shoots first" is your first problem.

it isn't about "oh they shot first, now all kinds of lethal force is authorized. public safety is now a non-factor, as there are guns involved."

Deleted member 11985 · Dec 6, 2019

stumblebee said:
It's mind-boggling that some of the answers to 'what should the cops do when the robber shoots first' is to let them keep shooting.

You have a specific reply in mind you want to attribute to this post, where the person only said "the cops should just let them keep shooting"?

Kurdel · Dec 6, 2019

Anustart said:
We have quotes for this?

lol I am not going tomstart pulling receipts for stupid shit people argued on here, feel free to google my username to track it down if you are skeptical of the dumb takes on this forum

Zvonimir Boban · Dec 6, 2019

stumblebee said:
It's mind-boggling that some of the answers to 'what should the cops do when the robber shoots first' is to let them keep shooting.

No what is mind boggling is that the only thing American police can do is escalate the situation until lethal force is the only option and that people are so willing to defend this insane approach.

Police Shootout With Jewelry Store Robbers Leads To Death Of UPS Driver Hostage And Bystander Motorist

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