Pokemon Sword and Shield discussion thread (spoiler-free) [see staff post]

[ArchedThunder]

Yet the paragraph after that:

So, with regards to the Pokédex issue in particular that you've mentioned, that was something that was a really hard decision internally, there were a lot of discussions about which direction we should take that in, and ultimately we felt that, for the overall game, focusing on creating the richest experience we could within that game, leaving the Pokédex as we did was the best solution overall.

The Pokédex removal was not a decision they like, they are well aware that fans don't like it, but it's just inevitable. They know there's no other option, they are not asking for feedback about that.

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He's saying it was the decision they felt was right for that game, that doesn't take away from the fact that they are taking criticism. The decisions they made for Let's Go they felt were the right ones for that game and they are still using that criticism in the development of future games.
The implication is pretty clear, they made this choice for this game feeling it was the right one but they will likely take the criticism of said decision into account when planning future games. He would not have brought up them taking criticism at all if it wasn't something they were thinking about.

 

[MoonToon]

I maintain that the games looking like cheeks, the models/animations being outdated and not having things like Camp would be preferable to the cut

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The game does look like cheeks (Partly cause they want to treat Pokemon like a small indie series apparently), but here's the thing.

So far we haven't seen new animations in camp. Camp uses Pokemon amie animations mixed with the walk and run animations they made for all Pokemon on the 3DS already. So it's not Pokemon Camp's fault.

It seems like a straight up choice on their part which would explain why they don't say it's not possible or w/e.

 

[Pokemaniac]

Models are future proofed. Textures and animations are not.

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They did some minor touch ups to the textures, but the animations thus far are identical. It's kind of a problem, because there's a bunch of cases where the existing walking animations don't fit the wild area very well.

 

[Atheerios]

They did some minor touch ups to the textures, but the animations thus far are identical. It's kind of a problem, because there's a bunch of cases where the existing walking animations don't fit the wild area very well.

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Yeah, in this case I agree with the animations, however I'm mostly referring to the future, depending on new features, they might need to have new animations.

And also it's not "minor touch ups" to the textures, Switch uses a totally different format and the required maps are very different, every texture has to be made from scratch.

 

[Scarlet Spider]

Yeah, in this case I agree with the animations, however I'm mostly referring to the future, depending on new features, they might need to have new animations.

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I can't see them updating the older Pokemon battle animations or their Amie ones. Altering maybe but not outright updating them. I feel the new animations apply to the new Pokemon only going forward since nothing I've seen so far regarding old Pokemon looks any different than what we've seen since 2013.

 

[ArchedThunder]

Yeah, in this case I agree with the animations, however I'm mostly referring to the future, depending on new features, they might need to have new animations.

And also it's not "minor touch ups" to the textures, Switch uses a totally different format and the required maps are very different, every texture has to be made from scratch.

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They aren't made from scratch, they are clearly made based on the original textures. They have to make elements from scratch, like stuff regarding how they interact with the lighting and shading, but the core textures are just upgraded versions of the 3DS ones.

 

[milkyway]

Team Shield

Team Digital

Team Grookey

Team Male Trainer

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I like the way you speak, I am not 100% committed but this is my current inclination! Unless Sobble or Scorbunny is amazing upon evolution and Sword gets too good exclusives.

 

[Atheerios]

They aren't made from scratch, they are clearly made based on the original textures. They have to make elements from scratch, like stuff regarding how they interact with the lighting and shading, but the core textures are just upgraded versions of the 3DS ones.

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You can't just "upgrade" bitmaps. And the maps are totally different, "stuff like how they interact with lighting and shadows" requires a lot of effort and has to be done individually for every single Pokémon.

 

[RebelDeux]

So, I'm buying this for the sake of the good old times (the last one I played was Gold and Go!) but I have the doubt that, in this entry we will finally be able to have battles with friends via NSO? if we can, then that will be awesome.

 

[Leo]

So, I'm buying this for the sake of the good old times (the last one I played was Gold and Go!) but I have the doubt that, in this entry we will finally be able to have battles with friends via NSO? if we can, then that will be awesome.

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...Online battles have been a thing since 2006.

 

[ArchedThunder]

You can't just "upgrade" bitmaps. And the maps are totally different, "stuff like how they interact with lighting and shadows" requires a lot of effort and has to be done individually for every single Pokémon.

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Yes you can, lmao, you can draw over the old one in a higher resolution, you can scale them up and then do touch ups or you can use AI upscaling. They likely did one of the first two options or a combination of the two and in the future they can rely on the third option.
Considering the artstyle they likely didn't have to do a whole lot in terms of normal maps and they likely use a global material set up for the majority of models because of the artstyle.

 

[Pokemaniac]

Yeah, in this case I agree with the animations, however I'm mostly referring to the future, depending on new features, they might need to have new animations.

And also it's not "minor touch ups" to the textures, Switch uses a totally different format and the required maps are very different, every texture has to be made from scratch.

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You said that the animations weren't future proof, though, which has nothing to do with new animations. Having to create new animations is an entirely separate issue from future proofing.

Regarding the textures, I find it very hard to believe they couldn't do a programmatic conversion from whatever source art the downscaled 3DS textures were based on to use as a basis. These types of things are often authored at much higher quality than what appears in game. Obviously there are changes in details where things were edited, like the changed stripe on Arcanine, and they may have had to do a pass to get material info added depending on how the lighting works, but they're a bit too close to be "from scratch".

 

[RebelDeux]

...Online battles have been a thing since 2006.

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oh wow, good I know that, it's great to jump back after 15 years, I remembered that it was Ruby the last one I played, so I'm excited about all the new mechanics and gameplay to learn.

 

[Atheerios]

Regarding the textures, I find it very hard to believe they couldn't do a programmatic conversion from whatever source art the downscaled 3DS textures were based on to use as a basis

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Considering we have seen the exact same textures on Masters, Go and every single Pokémon 3D appearances, I don't think higher quality textures exists, only the ones used in 3DS.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

(Partly cause they want to treat Pokemon like a small indie series apparently)

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In what way is it comparable to a small indie series? First you're saying they should give their IP to someone else while they "get with the times" now this...

 

[WadeIt0ut]

Game has Umbreon so it's a lock for GOTY

 

[Mediking]

I like the way you speak, I am not 100% committed but this is my current inclination! Unless Sobble or Scorbunny is amazing upon evolution and Sword gets too good exclusives.

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Originally... I was Team Sword, Team Sobble, Team Female Trainer. But times have changed lol

 

[Pokemaniac]

Considering we have seen the exact same textures on Masters, Go and every single Pokémon 3D appearances, I don't think higher quality textures exists, only the ones used in 3DS.

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Pokédex 3D is ultimately still a 3DS game, and I wouldn't be surprised if they just shipped the ready to go textures they had for the mobile games. If those textures were actually all they had, that would be short sighted in the extreme.

 

[Atheerios]

If those textures were actually all they had, that would be short sighted in the extreme

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Don't overestimate them :P

 

[Ashflow]

The cut was inevitable, it just isn't feasible to keep supporting thousands of so unique creatures in a single game, literally no other game does this.

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"Thousands."

Hard to care about your arguments with gross hyperbole like this. They might reach a singular thousand with this gen. It'll take decades to reach multiple thousands.

And inevitable is simply not true. They made a development choice. You can't argue both sides. They can't have both made a deliberate decision and not had any other option.

 

[Atheerios]

"Thousands."

Hard to care about your arguments with gross hyperbole like this. They might reach a singular thousand with this gen. It'll take decades to reach multiple thousands.

And inevitable is simply not true. They made a development choice. You can't argue both sides. They can't have both made a deliberate decision and not had any other option.

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I meant hundreds, sorry. Most a thousand. And yes, it was inevitable. It's impossible to keep incrementing the Dex infinitely while keeping the same development time and while continuing introducing new freaturws.

 

[Ashflow]

I meant hundreds, sorry. Most a thousand. And yes, it was inevitable. It's impossible to keep incrementing the Dex infinitely while keeping the same development time and while continuing introducing new freaturws.

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They don't need to update models/animations/etc indefinitely. This is the gen they are making the transition to hd. By next gen they could pretty reasonably finish off revamping remaining pokemon as they'll have the vast majority of the hard parts out of the way. Heck, they could "get away" with only updating the assets every few generations now that they've reached a modern console.

They could even do something like having the first games of every gen focus solely on new pokemon while the third iteration/sequels/whatever will introduce the rest of the pokedex with the extra time to work on them. There are plenty of ways they could manage it.

 

[Lotus]

I always go Physical for Pokemon games because I like to sell them around the time the new game comes out

Game has Umbreon so it's a lock for GOTY

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You mean Espeon

 

[Dream Machine]

Game has Umbreon so it's a lock for GOTY

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You mean Espeon

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I bet it has both

 

[Lotus]

I bet it has both

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If it has all the evolutions, it'd be GOTG

 

[MoonToon]

In what way is it comparable to a small indie series? First you're saying they should give their IP to someone else while they "get with the times" now this...

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When did I say they should give this series to someone else?

Are you referring to the other thread where I said they should have worked with another studio for this game as they do what they're already doing (Pokemon Lets Go was an attempt to get a better grasp of these changes that have to come with going HD. Little Town Hero also seems like another smaller scope game being developed to gain experience and understanding. This is new ground for them) because it's presentation suffers from shit that's been figured out by others many years ago already?

Did you not read my post detailing how that's exactly how FE:3H came about and how Smash is made?

Also that was just referencing the much memed "They're just a small-indie" line. Ya know, cause it's funny when big devs can't or don't bother to make seemingly small fixes. It's funny when the biggest Rpg and game franchise of all time can't manage to look up to par with high profile games by having a noticeable short draw distance and bad textures/ animations.

What I'm getting at is that this series is big as fuck yet they apparently didn't have much more people working on this "HD Pokemon" than usual(according to the devs in these recent interviews). It doesn't look to have the star treatment or polish one would expect and from what I've seen some things look flat out worse than Lets Go.

 

[Scarlet Spider]

I think Pokemon should be forward compatible within a generation. For example if we get Diamond and Pearl remakes this year then all the Pokemon from Sword and Shield should be able to be transferred to them.

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That would be ideal but apparently it's a no go due to balance and the theme of the region. Even if they have updated models/animations, etc. This is their choice going forward. Not really sure specifically what balance they're referring to specifically. Vs AI? Or PVP? People in the competitive scene make up all kinds of rule sets and tiers, and all the other Pokemon can only be transferred post game.

Anyways, we first we get the explanation that the dex cut happened because they wanted to focus on higher quality animations, the battle system balancing and just the sheer number of Pokemon. It's new hardware for them, it's understandable for them to be unfamiliar with it. Though it sucks these future proofed models will forever drag down past games framerate.

"There are a couple of different parts to the thinking behind it, but really the biggest reason for it is just the sheer number of Pokemon. We already have well over 800 Pokemon species, and there's going to be more added in these games. And now that they're on the Nintendo Switch, we're creating it with much higher fidelity with higher quality animations. But even more than that, it's coming down to the battle system. We're making sure we can keep everything balanced and give all the Pokemon that appear in the games a chance to shine."

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"We knew at some point we weren't going to be able to indefinitely keep supporting all of the Pokemon, and we just found that Sword and Shield would probably be a good point to go back and reevaluate what would be the best selection of Pokemon that appeal to the widest audience while keeping into consideration the balance of the battle system. It isn't just going to be all-new Pokemon in the Galar region Pokedex; there's still going to be a lot of favorites that fans will be able to bring over that they've adventured with previously. But yeah, it was pretty much just balancing and getting this optimal selection of Pokemon for the adventure we wanted to provide."

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Masuda and Ohmori told Famitsu that they rebuilt every model for Pokémon Sword and Shield. They also said that it was difficult to bring the more than 800 Pokémon into Sun and Moon on the 3DS and that the Nintendo Switch's improved graphics caused the development cycle of these games to take longer than expected. So the decision was made to cut the Pokedex within Sword and Shield since it was going to happen sooner or later as the number of total Pokémon will continue to grow with every new region.

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Later we learn these models were rebuilt apparently, looking identical to their 3DS counterparts at that. (Bravo Creatures Inc.?) Datamine will probably confirm if they really did redo them all or just touched up the 3DS model's textures. I look forward to that day. All in all, I am disappointed by the choice to cut Pokemon and the creative choice to have most Pokemon out of scale in battles for SwSh. All I can do is wait and see how they do in gen 9. I'll be playing Sword for free thanks to cousin's stubbornness to get me to play with him.

 

[PokémonSpears]

It's impossible to keep incrementing the Dex infinitely.

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And that's the the thing I believe is truly inevitable.

People in here are like "it was inevitable to cut old Pokémon" and I just keep thinking, that if anything has to be cut, it should be the new Pokémon instead.

I'd understand if Pokémon were disposable, every generation there's a bunch of new creatures, and by the next generation, 90% are gone, and the rest is carried over onto the next generation, with the new Pokémon, and maybe a few returning ones (like what Tamagotchi Connection did in the mid 2000's in a smaller scale, with every new version), but no. Any new Pokémon that they add, becomes part of the franchise, forever, independently of which games they're in or not. Starting with Pokémon Home which would have to be updated to host every single Pokémon, for God knows how many more generations, but there's also the TCG, the anime, and any kind of merch. What are they gonna do with so many Pokémon in a few years when they finally hit the 2000, or more? Like, it's gonna become unsustainable to keep track of every Pokémon, and decide which ones to feature among the different aspects of the franchise.

So to me, it's more obvious, or more "inevitable" that they'll eventually reach a point where they'll have to start making new games, without introducing new Pokémon, or at least not as many. That's what I would've expected before them cutting the old, already existing and beloved Pokémon. Or wait longer between generations.

I don't know, I just think that this direction they're trying, starting with Gen VIII, it's just a temporary solution, but they'll eventually have to stop anyway, or slow down with their releases.

It's just so weird to think about it, the future of Pokémon. They've created a monster with this franchise, there really isn't anything like it out there.

 

[Sandfox]

And that's the the thing I believe is truly inevitable.

People in here are like "it was inevitable to cut old Pokémon" and I just keep thinking, that if anything has to be cut, it should be the new Pokémon instead.

I'd understand if Pokémon were disposable, every generation there's a bunch of new creatures, and by the next generation, 90% are gone, and the rest is carried over onto the next generation, with the new Pokémon, and maybe a few returning ones (like what Tamagotchi Connection did in the mid 2000's in a smaller scale, with every new version), but no. Any new Pokémon that they add, becomes part of the franchise, forever, independently of which games they're in or not. Starting with Pokémon Home which would have to be updated to host every single Pokémon, for God knows how many more generations, but there's also the TCG, the anime, and any kind of merch. What are they gonna do with so many Pokémon in a few years when they finally hit the 2000, or more? Like, it's gonna become unsustainable to keep track of every Pokémon, and decide which ones to feature among the different aspects of the franchise.

So to me, it's more obvious, or more "inevitable" that they'll eventually reach a point where they'll have to start making new games, without introducing new Pokémon, or at least not as many. That's what I would've expected before them cutting the old, already existing and beloved Pokémon. Or wait longer between generations.

I don't know, I just think that this direction they're trying, starting with Gen VIII, it's just a temporary solution, but they'll eventually have to stop anyway, or slow down with their releases.

It's just so weird to think about it, the future of Pokémon. They've created a monster with this franchise, there really isn't anything like it out there.

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That's never going to happen because a lot of the merch money and appeal for new games comes from the new Pokemon.

 

[Fendoreo1]

By the way if you check the preview thread and look at the japanese previews it confirms that they are intentionally holding back reveals and there are a ton of new pokemon, and the other new thing that I could glean is that Raid Battles are story locked in terms of what star level you have access too (e.g, 1st gym 1 star raids, 3rd gym 2 star raids etc) there might be more new stuff revealed, but thats all I could get from google translate(besides the great music)

 

[mnk]

Eliminating new Pokemon is the worst thing they could possibly do.

 

[Dwebble]

I'd cut every old Pokémon before I stopped adding new ones. That's the very lifeblood of the franchise.

 

[Deleted member 51691]

And that's the the thing I believe is truly inevitable.

People in here are like "it was inevitable to cut old Pokémon" and I just keep thinking, that if anything has to be cut, it should be the new Pokémon instead.

I'd understand if Pokémon were disposable, every generation there's a bunch of new creatures, and by the next generation, 90% are gone, and the rest is carried over onto the next generation, with the new Pokémon, and maybe a few returning ones (like what Tamagotchi Connection did in the mid 2000's in a smaller scale, with every new version), but no. Any new Pokémon that they add, becomes part of the franchise, forever, independently of which games they're in or not. Starting with Pokémon Home which would have to be updated to host every single Pokémon, for God knows how many more generations, but there's also the TCG, the anime, and any kind of merch. What are they gonna do with so many Pokémon in a few years when they finally hit the 2000, or more? Like, it's gonna become unsustainable to keep track of every Pokémon, and decide which ones to feature among the different aspects of the franchise.

So to me, it's more obvious, or more "inevitable" that they'll eventually reach a point where they'll have to start making new games, without introducing new Pokémon, or at least not as many. That's what I would've expected before them cutting the old, already existing and beloved Pokémon. Or wait longer between generations.

I don't know, I just think that this direction they're trying, starting with Gen VIII, it's just a temporary solution, but they'll eventually have to stop anyway, or slow down with their releases.

It's just so weird to think about it, the future of Pokémon. They've created a monster with this franchise, there really isn't anything like it out there.

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I'd rather have a Pokemon game with all new Pokemon and no old Pokemon than all old Pokemon with no new Pokemon.

 

[Slamtastic]

That's never going to happen because a lot of the merch money and appeal for new games comes from the new Pokemon.

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One might even point out that "core" "mainline" Pokemon video games have, as the franchise has grown, become merely a means to the end goal of merch sales

 

[Lotus]

I'd cut every old Pokémon before I stopped adding new ones. That's the very lifeblood of the franchise.

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I'd rather have a Pokemon game with all new Pokemon and no old Pokemon than all old Pokemon with no new Pokemon.

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Same

 

[Sandfox]

One might even point out that "core" "mainline" Pokemon video games have, as the franchise has grown, become merely a means to the end goal of merch sales

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They obviously care about the games, but merch makes a lot of money.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

I don't buy their reasoning that keeping the simple sounds as Pokemon voices makes them "more alive" at all.

 

[ClickyCal']

I don't buy their reasoning that keeping the simple sounds as Pokemon voices makes them "more alive" at all.

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Yea. It's one of the lamest things still lingering around in the series and just takes away immersion. Gen 5 was the first time when cries at least gave some identity. Still better than just shouting their name I guess.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

Yea. It's one of the lamest things still lingering around in the series and just takes away immersion. Gen 5 was the first time when cries at least gave some identity. Still better than just shouting their name I guess.

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I don't even agree with that, its just not possible to do well. Pokken and Smash Bros are the most alive they have ever seemed but its not really viable to have thousands of voices, and all of them having the same voices also makes them seem more like clones of the same character.

 

[Phellps]

Game Freak literally said that they decided to choose other sides of the game over maintaining a full National Dex because it was way too time and resource-consuming and they had to forgo gameplay ideas in the past.

I don't know why y'all are still hung up trying to debate what is the "true" reason for this and insisting on the graphics side of things. There is always more to this stuff than we know.

 

[Mekanos]

I'd rather have a hard reboot but they are obviously never going to do that.

I still feel like post-launch support for the Nat Dex would be ideal but I guess they don't want to do that.

 

[perfectchaos007]

Since there's no national dex I'm assuming the regional dex will be the largest ever.

 

[Robbin__]

I don't even agree with that, its just not possible to do well. Pokken and Smash Bros are the most alive they have ever seemed but its not really viable to have thousands of voices, and all of them having the same voices also makes them seem more like clones of the same character.

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Are you proposing ~10 different cries for each pokemon to represent different emotions?

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

Are you proposing ~10 different cries for each pokemon to represent different emotions?

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"not possible to do well" is not a proposition. If they could make them as expressive as fighting game characters, great, but I don't think that's really a realistic thing to ever expect.

 

[PokémonSpears]

That's never going to happen because a lot of the merch money and appeal for new games comes from the new Pokemon.

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And a lot of merch comes from the older Pokémon too. There's an entire collection of shirts inspired in the original 151. There's the entire collection of plushies of Kanto and Johto Pokémon in the official store right now. Older Pokémon get constantly featured in the TCG sets, action figures, the anime, and so on.

They can do whatever they want with the main games, and cut all the Pokémon they want to, but the rest of the franchise keeps making use of all the existing Pokémon and that's where things will get messy sooner rather than later. Just keeping the copyright of every Pokémon, will eventually become a trouble. I don't know if in 10 years, 15 years, or 20. But it'll happen some day. They just can't keep creating new Pokémon indefinitely, nor can they pretend that an older Pokémon never existed.

 

[Deleted member 2793]

I'd rather they just reuse the same models forever, never add stuff like curry and camping and keep all Pokémon in, while still having a few new ones every gen.

 

[diakyu]

Official confirmation that they're showing restraint is getting me a little hype not gonna lie.

 

[Deleted member 51691]

Restraint was exactly what I wanted from Gamefreak this time. Can't wait to discover a bunch of new Pokemon I've never seen.

 

[Twister]

I've been saying this since Gen 4, but I'd rather have a Pokémon game with ONLY new starters and that's it every gen. I have no need for these new Pokémon and would rather see my old favorites return. Just my opinion, but it's what I would do with the series were it under my control.

 

[Dogenzaka]

Honestly, I'm so excited to see all the clothes in this game. The fact that you can layer clothing is amazing to me.

 

[Dwebble]

I've been saying this since Gen 4, but I'd rather have a Pokémon game with ONLY new starters and that's it every gen. I have no need for these new Pokémon and would rather see my old favorites return. Just my opinion, but it's what I would do with the series were it under my control.

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You've had plenty of games with those old favourites.
My favourites come from later generations, by and large, and the franchise would be far less appealing to me if you got your wish.