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TetraGenesis

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,138
I like the constant "THIS IS WHAT WE ACTUALLY WANT" which is consistently contradicted on the same page.

Plenty forum dwellers hate Game Freak and have no interest in what Pokemon is. Its just seething hate, no further coherent idea what Pokemon should be beyond "WELL LIKE THIS GAME!" Logically, this thread had to be a lowpoint of the community.

You've been in this thread the entire time hurling accusations, responding extremely defensively, flexing that you're part of the elite majority, and generally just taking a persecution complex out for a ride. And this thread is a "lowpoint of the community" because of us?

Why does wanting something like what OP described (even as a spin off) induce such vitriol in currently satisfied pokemon fans?

You guys do realize you get the game you want, right? Like, the thread title itself says "will obviously never be made" but people come into this thread like we've got our hands wrapped around traditional pokemon's throat. You lose nothing in letting people fantasize about having something different, but the very idea that there are people out there who no longer love this series as much as you still do is simply too much apparently.

We aren't dissent that must be quelled. You can just... ignore... the thread full of disrespectful, tasteless churls like us.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Great posts that sum up how I feel pretty well.

Pokémon could be so much more. It should be more. People who want it to remain the same game it has always been confuse me so much. It's like wanting nothing but new super Mario brothers and flat out getting angry at the idea of Mario odyssey.

To the people saying that actually interacting with Pokémon wouldn't change that much from how it is now, I uh... huh? I imagine spotting a Pokémon far off in the distance, tracking it, trying not to startle it so you can get close enough to "track" it (I imagine this as similar to placing waypoints in BOTW but you have to be at a closer distance to it and the tracking will wear off) and once you're ready to use a sneak attack or throw a pokeball (which I feel could be a good mechanic to lock the Pokémon in a battle that can't retreat for a few attempts at weakening and catching it) it darts off and you have to keep up with it to keep track so you ride your Pokémon like flying, on the ground, some could do Spider-Man stuff with trees and mountains and the like only for it to lead you into a cave you never knew was in this area to explore.

That's a totally different gameplay loop from Walk In Tall grass and go through a selection of randomly generated Pokémon from a list in any given block of grass in mostly straight linear paths. This opens up a lot of gameplay potential and it's just one small example. There's so much you could do. You can get lost and feel like you're in that world instead of being on a straight path guided tour.

Apologies for the poor grammar and sentence structure. I mostly use the speech to text on my phone because I.. I can't type on these things.

Ok, here's the problem, what you want and what the main game series actually is are entirely different things. For all its talk about worlds and discovery, the main gameplay loop of pokemon revolves around the battles. As such everything is made to get you into these battles as quickly as possible. Its why the game's world is so gamey rather than organic, it is not interested in creating a "real world" as much as it is interested in making a world that funnels you towards battling.

Again, you all are asking for something the core games never were. That's fine, the idea of a Pokemon world is inherently appealing. But you're asking for something the game won't deliver because the mainline games aren't interested in that.
 
Jun 10, 2018
8,847
See stuff like this a really good discussion on ways to change the series. I'd also love to see an attempt to add in meaty side quests
Agreed. The common misconception about longtime Pokemon fans is that we're averse to change, when in reality we're averse to the same vapid puddle-deep arguments about how Pokemon's formula is stale yet never evolves beyond the game's graphics.
 

Ryengeku

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,662
Georgia, US
I like the constant "THIS IS WHAT WE ACTUALLY WANT" which is consistently contradicted on the same page.

Plenty forum dwellers hate Game Freak and have no interest in what Pokemon is. Its just seething hate, no further coherent idea what Pokemon should be beyond "WELL LIKE THIS GAME!" Logically, this thread had to be a lowpoint of the community.
There's that sweeping dismissive statement from someone losing ground.

Beautiful.
 

Sparks

Senior Games Artist
Verified
Dec 10, 2018
2,879
Los Angeles
🤤

This is all I want! But my last hope was Gen 8 taking this turn, I always assumed Handhelds were holding them back. I guess I was naive because this is literally just the hand-held title on a Switch.

Such a bummer! Pokemon are SO recognizable and it opens up so many possibilities for a large expansive game. All I want is a 3rd person perspective where you are controlling your character and actually throwing out your ball in real-time to send out your Poke.



Fast forward 8+ years and we'll have this. Mark my words.

This is what I was hoping when I was a kid playing Pokemon Red on my gameboy. I would have NEVER imagined that the game would play the exact same way and even use the same sound effects 14 years from then.

It blows my mind. Just imaging if Mario was still only 2D and Zelda was still only a Top Down game makes me feel weird.

At this point the mainline Pokemon titles should be this huge epic RPG style experience and this classic type of pokemon game is just a side game that they release once in a while (similiar to 2d marios and top-down Zelda's).
 
Jan 10, 2018
6,327
You've been in this thread the entire time hurling accusations, responding extremely defensively, flexing that you're part of the elite majority, and generally just taking a persecution complex out for a ride. And this thread is a "lowpoint of the community" because of us?

Why does wanting something like what OP described (even as a spin off) induce such vitriol in currently satisfied pokemon fans?

You guys do realize you get the game you want, right? Like, the thread title itself says "will obviously never be made" but people come into this thread like we've got our hands wrapped around traditional pokemon's throat. You lose nothing in letting people fantasize about having something different, but the very idea that there are people out there who no longer love this series as much as you still do is simply too much apparently.

We aren't dissent that must be quelled. You can just... ignore... the thread full of disrespectful, tasteless churls like us.

For a second, stop with your condescending tone, even though I know how empowering that feels. So sorry for that. Instead, start reading. I have no real problem with OPs pipedream, would be actually pretty cool for a spinoff probably. I had issues with statements "this would sell so much better", I had problems with the insulting tone towards Pokemon fans, these poor clueless bastards who are used to mediocrity, holding the franchise back and far more so the insulting tone towards Game Freak. We have seen time and time again that developers suffer under these comments.

I know, at the end of the day Resetera is part of the gaming community and there aren't many more toxic communities than this one. Ryengeku was nice enough to provide another example. Thanks for that.

But atleast on Resetera a few of us can speak out against it.
 

HommePomme

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,052
🤤

This is all I want! But my last hope was Gen 8 taking this turn, I always assumed Handhelds were holding them back. I guess I was naive because this is literally just the hand-held title on a Switch.

Such a bummer! Pokemon are SO recognizable and it opens up so many possibilities for a large expansive game. All I want is a 3rd person perspective where you are controlling your character and actually throwing out your ball in real-time to send out your Poke.





This is what I was hoping when I was a kid playing Pokemon Red on my gameboy. I would have NEVER imagined that the game would play the exact same way and even use the same sound effects 14 years from then.

It blows my mind. Just imaging if Mario was still only 2D and Zelda was still only a Top Down game makes me feel weird.

At this point the mainline Pokemon titles should be this huge epic RPG style experience and this classic type of pokemon game is just a side game that they release once in a while (similiar to 2d marios and top-down Zelda's).

Yep, people say "wait a decade and we'll be there" but 10 years ago Black & White came out and this year's release barely has any meaningful changes to that same formula. Hard to imagine they're still selling so well but they should let a AAA studio at Nintendo spend 3-4 years making something massive in the universe. The fact they've been ignoring the potential that Pokemon has as an IP beyond the current mainline formula is absurd and they're honestly already years and years behind where the series should have evolved to by now. Unambitious is an understatement
 

jerk

Member
Nov 6, 2017
751
Ok, here's the problem, what you want and what the main game series actually is are entirely different things. For all its talk about worlds and discovery, the main gameplay loop of pokemon revolves around the battles. As such everything is made to get you into these battles as quickly as possible. Its why the game's world is so gamey rather than organic, it is not interested in creating a "real world" as much as it is interested in making a world that funnels you towards battling.

Again, you all are asking for something the core games never were. That's fine, the idea of a Pokemon world is inherently appealing. But you're asking for something the game won't deliver because the mainline games aren't interested in that.
Unless it had a shift in focus in moving to 3D as Mario did. It's ok for the gameplay style to change and evolve. It'd still be Pokémon and there would still be battles, just not as frequent. And it's not like they haven't shown they can't make multiple styles of games already. There's no universe in which they wouldn't make traditional style games in prettier HD as well. They would just take the NSMB position. Or the open exploration/interactive Pokémon word would be the "spinoff". Whichever helps us all sleep at night haha.
 

Sparks

Senior Games Artist
Verified
Dec 10, 2018
2,879
Los Angeles
Ok, here's the problem, what you want and what the main game series actually is are entirely different things. For all its talk about worlds and discovery, the main gameplay loop of pokemon revolves around the battles. As such everything is made to get you into these battles as quickly as possible. Its why the game's world is so gamey rather than organic, it is not interested in creating a "real world" as much as it is interested in making a world that funnels you towards battling.

Again, you all are asking for something the core games never were. That's fine, the idea of a Pokemon world is inherently appealing. But you're asking for something the game won't deliver because the mainline games aren't interested in that.
But are we really kidding ourselves that Nintendo or GameFreak does not have the budget for another Triple A team to make large expansive Pokemon titles along side the traditional type of handheld experience?

I can't imagine they are dying for money to fund these projects. Hell there are some small indie studios with larger ambitions than GameFreak.

What I'm saying is, hire me Nintendo I'll run up a studio to make a Triple A Pokemon title.
 

jerk

Member
Nov 6, 2017
751
For a second, stop with your condescending tone, even though I know how empowering that feels. So sorry for that. Instead, start reading. I have no real problem with OPs pipedream, would be actually pretty cool for a spinoff probably. I had issues with statements "this would sell so much better", I had problems with the insulting tone towards Pokemon fans, these poor clueless bastards who are used to mediocrity, holding the franchise back and far more so the insulting tone towards Game Freak. We have seen time and time again that developers suffer under these comments.

I know, at the end of the day Resetera is part of the gaming community and there aren't many more toxic communities than this one. Ryengeku was nice enough to provide another example. Thanks for that.

But atleast on Resetera a few of us can speak out against it.
Why are people who criticize the games "toxic gamers" but the people who say "if you want it to be any different it wouldn't be Pokémon stfu and go play other games then!" not?
 

jerk

Member
Nov 6, 2017
751
But are we really kidding ourselves that Nintendo or GameFreak does not have the budget for another Triple A team to make large expansive Pokemon titles along side the traditional type of handheld experience?

I can't imagine they are dying for money to fund these projects. Hell there are some small indie studios with larger ambitions than GameFreak.

What I'm saying is, hire me Nintendo I'll run up a studio to make a Triple A Pokemon title.
You have to think about their terrible financial situation. They're just a small studio! This is their first HD console... I swear for how people say we trash on gamefreak for being shitty lazy devs, they're often the ones who act like they're babies who can't do any better.

for the record I don't think they're shitty lazy devs. Just uninspired and on autopilot
 
Jan 10, 2018
6,327
But are we really kidding ourselves that Nintendo or GameFreak does not have the budget for another Triple A team to make large expansive Pokemon titles along side the traditional type of handheld experience?

I can't imagine they are dying for money to fund these projects. Hell there are some small indie studios with larger ambitions than GameFreak.

What I'm saying is, hire me Nintendo I'll run up a studio to make a Triple A Pokemon title.

Pokemon Company, not Nintendo. But hey, you are almost there.
Why are people who criticize the games "toxic gamers" but the people who say "if you want it to be any different it wouldn't be Pokémon stfu and go play other games then!" not?

I appreciate your honesty that this isn't about pipedreams, but just another way to critize the game. Very appreciate.

But how you came from" I had problems with the insulting tone towards Pokemon fans, these poor clueless bastards who are used to mediocrity, holding the franchise back and far more so the insulting tone towards Game Freak." to the conclusion I'm against criticism is something you should never explain to me.
 

MP!

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,198
Las Vegas
2019-03-01.png


Made this super rough fake photoshop of xenoblade/pokemon
even this is a little overpopulated though... but it gets the idea across.

I'll try to make a battle one if I have time
 

jerk

Member
Nov 6, 2017
751
Pokemon Company, not Nintendo. But hey, you are almost there.
This is getting to be "um it's actually Frankenstein's monster." territory.
I appreciate your honesty that this isn't about pipedreams, but just another way to critize the game. Very appreciate.

But how you came from" I had problems with the insulting tone towards Pokemon fans, these poor clueless bastards who are used to mediocrity, holding the franchise back and far more so the insulting tone towards Game Freak." to the conclusion I'm against criticism is something you should never explain to me.

I really don't see how you're getting from point a to b on this. Are you saying I'm not sincere about what I want from Pokémon and that I just like trashing on it for some reason? You can check my post history if you like I don't post often at all and when I do it's usually about Pokémon.
 

Razor Mom

Member
Jan 2, 2018
2,547
United Kingdom
Pokemon of the Wild? Let's be honest, Pokemon hasn't even had its Ocarina of Time moment.

It's amazing to me when people claim Pokemon doesn't need to be more than what it is now, or that it's not worth it from a financial perspective. If you were to take Pokemon, give it a freely explorable world with big cities and plenty of different large environments that you could get lost in, then imagine later on they offer paid DLC that adds a new area to the world, filled with Pokemon from previous gens that you couldn't catch in the game before, and it's own side story. Do you have any idea how much money that would make?

Instead, what we get with Sword and Shield appears to be identical to what we have with Sun and Moon. Linear, fenced paths funneling the player in the direction the game wants them to go, fixed camera angles, and visuals that look about like what an HD remaster of the 3DS games would be. Even the art direction and animations are extremely similar to Sun and Moon. To be frank, as someone who isn't a hardcore fan of Pokemon, it's not even the slightest bit exciting. Do I think SnS will be a bad game? No, I think it will be fine, and Pokemon fans will enjoy them as they the last few games. But aiming for "fine" when we're talking about the literal biggest IP in all of video games is not acceptable to me.

Pokemon Red and Blue sold over 30 million copies. Gold and Silver sold over 20 million, and every mainline Pokemon game since then has sold roughly 15 million. TPC and Game Freak seem to be completely content with selling on that bottom edge, doing the same thing over and over again, evolving the series at a glacial pace. Pokemon could be so, so much greater than what it is now, and it's frustrating that it will never happen.
Some of the ideas in this thread are pretty cool, but Christ the fact that some people want:
"paid dlc to catch previous Gen Pokémon" "getting lost in big cities"
Makes me so glad they'll never have a say in what goes into these games. Somehow there are people out there who think fur shaders and"450 square kilometres!" On the back of the box will serve the franchise best.

"Pick up the johto season pass now!"

Why.
 

Moltres006

Banned
Jan 5, 2019
1,818
The masses won't stop so please dude. People can criticize and say wth they want without a defense force.
I'm not defending Im just telling it how it is. I didnt purchase let's go eevee/pikachu, kirby star allies or super Mario party because I was not satisfied with Nintendo and gamefreak did with those games.
 
Jan 10, 2018
6,327
This is getting to be "um it's actually Frankenstein's monster." territory.


I really don't see how you're getting from point a to b on this. Are you saying I'm not sincere about what I want from Pokémon and that I just like trashing on it for some reason? You can check my post history if you like I don't post often at all and when I do it's usually about Pokémon.

No. You and me are saying this thread is about critizing Pokemon. I will never imply or care about your motivations for it.
 

jerk

Member
Nov 6, 2017
751
Some of the ideas in this thread are pretty cool, but Christ the fact that some people want:
"paid dlc to catch previous Gen Pokémon" "getting lost in big cities"
Makes me so glad they'll never have a say in what goes into these games. Somehow there are people out there who think fur shaders and"450 square kilometres!" On the back of the box will serve the franchise best.

"Pick up the johto season pass now!"

Why.
yeah pokemon would never do any sleazy explosive
Editing this to point out that should've said exploitative
but honestly I like explosive too so I'm keeping it
business practices.

Anyway can't wait for $60 Pokémon Armor in a couple of years. If I get it at GameStop they'll even give me a free Mew. That sure doesn't suck any atmosphere out of these games. :P

To be clear I'm against that and one of the biggest changes to the games I want is non of this store exclusive legendary dumps and what not. Make it something the player discovers while exploring, a secret. So many side quests you can do with legendaries. (and normal Pokémon)
 
Last edited:

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
But are we really kidding ourselves that Nintendo or GameFreak does not have the budget for another Triple A team to make large expansive Pokemon titles along side the traditional type of handheld experience?

I can't imagine they are dying for money to fund these projects. Hell there are some small indie studios with larger ambitions than GameFreak.

What I'm saying is, hire me Nintendo I'll run up a studio to make a Triple A Pokemon title.
You have to think about their terrible financial situation. They're just a small studio! This is their first HD console... I swear for how people say we trash on gamefreak for being shitty lazy devs, they're often the ones who act like they're babies who can't do any better.

for the record I don't think they're shitty lazy devs. Just uninspired and on autopilot

...where in that did I talk about finances. Where in that post did I say that they did not have the budget? What I am saying is that what you want and what game freak focuses on are two different things. How did you get "lol this loser just wants to baby gamefreak"?
 

Mr.Gamerson

Member
Oct 27, 2017
906
Nintendo should try to create a dedicated Pokemon RPG team that can make a spinoff Pokemon game not limited by Gamefreak/Pokemon Company from a scope, production value, and release schedule standpoint. What they could do is make one large immersive open world Pokemon game and have this team constantly update it with Pokemon,gyms etc. over the course of a console generation. The game could launch with 200+ Pokemon from any of the previous gens and then continue adding the rest over time. Considering how well the Let's Go games have sold, this game would print money easily provided it doesn't suck, but considering Nintendo was willing to delay prime 4 to ensure it's quality i'm pretty confident they wouldn't mess this game up.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,609
North Carolina
As someone who's happy with what they've shown of Gen 8, and who does not think there's a need for drastic change in the mainline series, I will say that it's disappointing that nobody seems to have learned a thing from the Let's Go discourse. You can like what you see, but shouting down negativity on the basis of "it'll sell anyway so you're wrong" and "it's not for you" is never, ever going to accomplish anything other than making discussion shitty. It's reasonable to have greater expectations of Gamefreak, or to not agree with their decisions, so just let people say their piece.
Aside from all the anti-random encounter stuff, the blaming traditional fans for the series not being to one's liking stuff, and the wanting the mainline games as they are to stop being a thing stuff, I ain't your boy if that's how you feel
 

jerk

Member
Nov 6, 2017
751
No. You and me are saying this thread is about critizing Pokemon. I will never imply or care about your motivations for it.
uh

ok

Have you considered the reason someone may criticize something is because they want it to be different?

...where in that did I talk about finances. Where in that post did I say that they did not have the budget? What I am saying is that what you want and what game freak focuses on are two different things. How did you get "lol this loser just wants to baby gamefreak"?
I wasn't quoting you, just making a joke about common defenses I see for Gamefreak.
 

Tuorom

Member
Oct 30, 2017
10,915
The gaming worlds greatest mystery:

Why haven't they made a Pokemon MMO yet?

No one knows. All are perplexed.
 

timrtabor123

Member
Feb 11, 2019
1,020
The Pxelmon mod for Minecraft is pretty close to an open world pokemon albeit without any quest or mission design.
 

timrtabor123

Member
Feb 11, 2019
1,020
Of course they can, but they have no competition and face no sales downturns so they won't.
Adding on to this point. I find it interesting arguably the most ambitious pokemon games after gen 1 were created back before the series growth was sorta capped (gen 2) or a big competitor arose (gen 7 would've entered development around the time Yokai Watch hit it big).
 

Deffers

Banned
Mar 4, 2018
2,402
I mean, one of the best Pokemon games was Pokemon Snap. I think the series could and does have success outside of its core gameplay loop. So for me, a Pokemon of the Wild represents an open-world spinoff. And I think that could be highly successful. Also, having the game be a spinoff frees us from necessarily having all seven hundred and something Pokemon, which vastly reduces asset requirements to "whatever would work for this game."

I've actually been hearing about open-world Pokemon game ideas since, of all games, Phantom Pain came out-- 'cos of D-Dog. The gameplay loop of that game involved completing missions in an open world while also capturing guards for your base where you navigate the environment with a companion whose actions you can bring up via radial wheel in real time. In a similar way, an open-world Pokemon game would then lean on the same ideas-- complete missions in an open world while capturing Pokemon who can then become new companions for you to bring on missions whose actions are selectable in real time. But you gotta tweak the formula a LOT. Fittingly for the title of the thread, I think Breath of the Wild provides some of the missing pieces that turn the idea from half-baked into workable.

There are of course challenges. For one, Phantom Pain is good but it also kinda sucks due to its own open world. In this case, a smaller and more compact open world would probably be better. Secondly, in PP you are still the primary mover-- you move around, you fight, you shoot. In a Pokemon game, I'd suspect having your Pokemon NOT be the primary mover would be a bad thing. So you'd have this scenario where a character you don't have primary control over is your primary means of interacting with the world. This brings with it major concerns about things like enemies-- would wild Pokemon target you or your Pokemon? How about a villainous team? In an open-world scenario it's easy to abstract these questions away; you're standing behind your Pokemon who is simultaneously protecting you and attacking the enemy. A real-time or open-world scenario actually brings these questions to the fore. You start asking design questions like "should my character have their own health bar?" In this sense I can understand why people would instead prefer for the combat to be turn-based. It's a vast simplifier even if I feel it's limiting the promise of the idea, but I still feel like a commitment to a real-time paradigm could pay dividends when freed from the requirement to include all the Pokemon and do moves for all of them.

I feel like the main draw of an open-world Pokemon game, though, is the idea of being able to see Pokemon interact with the environment. People want to see Pokemon actually dynamically living in an environment when they say they want an open world Pokemon game-- they want interactions and maybe even an ecosystem. They want those moments from the anime where you got to see Butterfree flying in the air and migrating, or a Nidoqueen hanging out with her Nidorans. Similarly, I think people likely see potential for Pokemon-assisted physics-based sandbox play and world traversal. Stuff like solving puzzles at a power station by using your electrical Pokemon to power generators, or using a Fire-type Pokemon to cook food, or finding buried treasure with your Ground-type Pokemon. Exploring the ocean with your Water type Pokemon by Surfing or Diving. A move from the top-down perspective to something like third person might also capture the intensity of riding on a speedy Pokemon, or the rush of flying on the back of one.

So, what sorts of stories and settings accommodate these gameplay scenarios? Well, if we want a spinoff series, and we don't want all seven hundred plus Pokemon, we probably don't want the usual preteen trainer story. We don't want them to be the primary mover, so someone with a civilian-type role is probably preferable as opposed to, say, like, a cop or whatever Lieutenant Surge's deal is. We could go with a Pokemon Ranger, or we could go with a photographer-type like in Snap. Either works, and either gives us an out to de-emphasize combat over the main series. Our ranger could be focused on helping people and Pokemon who need rescue, while our photographer could be focused on exploring and documenting an island they washed up on. Just like in Breath of the Wild, moment-to-moment gameplay could favor exploration and traversal over combat, and gameplay would heavily feature both observing Pokemon interacting with the world as well as using your Pokemon to interact with the world. Another innovation from Breath of the Wild would be a consistent framework of physics rules-- stuff like conducting electricity with metal, or making wood burn. This would give typed moves all sorts of sandboxy interactions and could assist with the aforementioned puzzles. Using this as your framework for the gameplay loop gives you an excuse to effectively reduce the goal of the game to a secondary concern much like it was in Breath of the Wild. Have some quests, set an arbitrary goal for players to work towards, and little else matters. A ranger game could involve having a bunch of active distress calls after a natural disaster, while a photographer could just have washed up on an uninhabited island and have to explore to find a way back home.

Ultimately, I think that people who want a mainline Pokemon game to focus on the open world experience are limiting themselves by technical constraints and the demands of mainline fans. Thinking about "Pokemon of the Wild" as a spinoff series lets you think wayyyyyy outside the box, and I think that lets you frame an argument and construct a sketch for a compelling experience that stays compelling moment to moment.
 

DIE BART DIE

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,847
It wouldn't be appreciated if you guys could write these things in a less insulting manner.

Pokemon Company, not Nintendo. But hey, you are almost there.

ca5.png


Anyway, lots of great ideas in this thread. For me, one of the weakest arguments against shaking up this series is the statement "that's not what Pokémon is about".

If Nintendo had said "that's not what Zelda is about" or "that's not what Metroid is about" or "that's not what Mario is about", we would never have been able to play Ocarina of Time (let alone Majora's Mask), Metroid Prime or Mario 64.
 
Jan 10, 2018
6,327
ca5.png


Anyway, lots of great ideas in this thread. For me, one of the weakest arguments against shaking up this series is the statement "that's not what Pokémon is about".

If Nintendo had said "that's not what Zelda is about" or "that's not what Metroid is about" or "that's not what Mario is about", we would never have been able to play Ocarina of Time (let alone Majora's Mask), Metroid Prime or Mario 64.

Its funny how you guys dogpile a harmless observation. And yes, I wouldn't have appreciated it.

But I'm curious, why should TPC abandon well...

this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuYeHPFR3f0
 
Jun 10, 2018
8,847
I mean, one of the best Pokemon games was Pokemon Snap. I think the series could and does have success outside of its core gameplay loop. So for me, a Pokemon of the Wild represents an open-world spinoff. And I think that could be highly successful. Also, having the game be a spinoff frees us from necessarily having all seven hundred and something Pokemon, which vastly reduces asset requirements to "whatever would work for this game."

I've actually been hearing about open-world Pokemon game ideas since, of all games, Phantom Pain came out-- 'cos of D-Dog. The gameplay loop of that game involved completing missions in an open world while also capturing guards for your base where you navigate the environment with a companion whose actions you can bring up via radial wheel in real time. In a similar way, an open-world Pokemon game would then lean on the same ideas-- complete missions in an open world while capturing Pokemon who can then become new companions for you to bring on missions whose actions are selectable in real time. But you gotta tweak the formula a LOT. Fittingly for the title of the thread, I think Breath of the Wild provides some of the missing pieces that turn the idea from half-baked into workable.

There are of course challenges. For one, Phantom Pain is good but it also kinda sucks due to its own open world. In this case, a smaller and more compact open world would probably be better. Secondly, in PP you are still the primary mover-- you move around, you fight, you shoot. In a Pokemon game, I'd suspect having your Pokemon NOT be the primary mover would be a bad thing. So you'd have this scenario where a character you don't have primary control over is your primary means of interacting with the world. This brings with it major concerns about things like enemies-- would wild Pokemon target you or your Pokemon? How about a villainous team? In an open-world scenario it's easy to abstract these questions away; you're standing behind your Pokemon who is simultaneously protecting you and attacking the enemy. A real-time or open-world scenario actually brings these questions to the fore. You start asking design questions like "should my character have their own health bar?" In this sense I can understand why people would instead prefer for the combat to be turn-based. It's a vast simplifier even if I feel it's limiting the promise of the idea, but I still feel like a commitment to a real-time paradigm could pay dividends when freed from the requirement to include all the Pokemon and do moves for all of them.

I feel like the main draw of an open-world Pokemon game, though, is the idea of being able to see Pokemon interact with the environment. People want to see Pokemon actually dynamically living in an environment when they say they want an open world Pokemon game-- they want interactions and maybe even an ecosystem. They want those moments from the anime where you got to see Butterfree flying in the air and migrating, or a Nidoqueen hanging out with her Nidorans. Similarly, I think people likely see potential for Pokemon-assisted physics-based sandbox play and world traversal. Stuff like solving puzzles at a power station by using your electrical Pokemon to power generators, or using a Fire-type Pokemon to cook food, or finding buried treasure with your Ground-type Pokemon. Exploring the ocean with your Water type Pokemon by Surfing or Diving. A move from the top-down perspective to something like third person might also capture the intensity of riding on a speedy Pokemon, or the rush of flying on the back of one.

So, what sorts of stories and settings accommodate these gameplay scenarios? Well, if we want a spinoff series, and we don't want all seven hundred plus Pokemon, we probably don't want the usual preteen trainer story. We don't want them to be the primary mover, so someone with a civilian-type role is probably preferable as opposed to, say, like, a cop or whatever Lieutenant Surge's deal is. We could go with a Pokemon Ranger, or we could go with a photographer-type like in Snap. Either works, and either gives us an out to de-emphasize combat over the main series. Our ranger could be focused on helping people and Pokemon who need rescue, while our photographer could be focused on exploring and documenting an island they washed up on. Just like in Breath of the Wild, moment-to-moment gameplay could favor exploration and traversal over combat, and gameplay would heavily feature both observing Pokemon interacting with the world as well as using your Pokemon to interact with the world. Another innovation from Breath of the Wild would be a consistent framework of physics rules-- stuff like conducting electricity with metal, or making wood burn. This would give typed moves all sorts of sandboxy interactions and could assist with the aforementioned puzzles. Using this as your framework for the gameplay loop gives you an excuse to effectively reduce the goal of the game to a secondary concern much like it was in Breath of the Wild. Have some quests, set an arbitrary goal for players to work towards, and little else matters. A ranger game could involve having a bunch of active distress calls after a natural disaster, while a photographer could just have washed up on an uninhabited island and have to explore to find a way back home.

Ultimately, I think that people who want a mainline Pokemon game to focus on the open world experience are limiting themselves by technical constraints and the demands of mainline fans. Thinking about "Pokemon of the Wild" as a spinoff series lets you think wayyyyyy outside the box, and I think that lets you frame an argument and construct a sketch for a compelling experience that stays compelling moment to moment.
What you describe in your post is exactly why I feel fans who want that exploratory Pokemon game need to look at the PMD games as the basis for a "BOTW like" pipe dream. They don't entirely play like everyone's dream game, but the series foundation more closely resembles, and could be improved into, the eventual experience fans have been clamoring for IMO, far more than the mainline series

The PMD games have better stories (and hinestly way better OSTs) than the mainline games anyway, so they're not a bad place to start.
 

jerk

Member
Nov 6, 2017
751
Its funny how you guys dogpile a harmless observation. And yes, I wouldn't have appreciated it.

But I'm curious, why should TPC abandon well...

this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuYeHPFR3f0
Ash was well known for catching every Pokémon and winning the Pokémon league. The Pokémon anime is lots of people's example for what they want the games to be more like. Ponyta racing, tons of side quests, exploring the world and bonding with your Pikachu and 30 Taurus.
 

DIE BART DIE

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,847
Some of the ideas in this thread are pretty cool, but Christ the fact that some people want:
"paid dlc to catch previous Gen Pokémon" "getting lost in big cities"
Makes me so glad they'll never have a say in what goes into these games. Somehow there are people out there who think fur shaders and"450 square kilometres!" On the back of the box will serve the franchise best.

"Pick up the johto season pass now!"

Why.

I mean, Game Freak are the OGs of monetizing locked content before it was cool.

"Hey kids, if you don't buy Pokémon Red and Pokémon Blue, how will you ever catch 'em all?"
 

Deffers

Banned
Mar 4, 2018
2,402
What you describe in your post is exactly why I feel fans who want that exploratory Pokemon game need to look at the PMD games. They don't entirely play like everyone's dream game, but the series foundation more closely resembles, and could be improved into, the eventual experience fans have been clamoring for.

The PMD games have better stories (and hinestly way better OSTs) than the mainline games anyway, so they're not a bad place to start.

Mystery Dungeon is definitely cool, the main problem being Spike Chunsoft is about as good at gameplay innovation as Game Freak itself. That series is going to die as the same gridbased roguelike it began, IMO. So if we're having to bring in some kind of secondary developer for this spinoff and we want to end someplace more complex, Spike Chunsoft's only as good as any other possible dev, IMO.

PMD is definitely one of the series that makes me think a big, ambitious Pokemon spinoff is not only possible but almost inevitable. There's also stuff like Pokken, Pokemon Snap, and I keep telling myself there was a Pokemon Ranger series but I keep thinking I made that one up.
 

Sparks

Senior Games Artist
Verified
Dec 10, 2018
2,879
Los Angeles
[
...where in that did I talk about finances. Where in that post did I say that they did not have the budget? What I am saying is that what you want and what game freak focuses on are two different things. How did you get "lol this loser just wants to baby gamefreak"?
I'm sorry if you took it as an attack, I was just stating in GENERAL that I understand the focus of these games is what you described, but I'm sure they have the potential to branch off and create multiple projects and convert the main-line titles to something more ambitious, while still keeping the "Traditional" Style Pokemon game alive as a separate product.
 

Cronogear

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,982
Some of the ideas in this thread are pretty cool, but Christ the fact that some people want:
"paid dlc to catch previous Gen Pokémon" "getting lost in big cities"
Makes me so glad they'll never have a say in what goes into these games. Somehow there are people out there who think fur shaders and"450 square kilometres!" On the back of the box will serve the franchise best.

"Pick up the johto season pass now!"

Why.
You do realize we're talking about a series that invented the nonsense of having to buy both versions if you want all the Pokemon, right?

And christ, you completely missed the point of the original post.
 

Doskoi Panda

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,965
I'm sorry if you took it as an attack, I was just stating in GENERAL that I understand the focus of these games is what you described, but I'm sure they have the potential to branch off and create multiple projects and convert the main-line titles to something more ambitious, while still keeping the "Traditional" Style Pokemon game alive as a separate product.
As someone who used to balk at the thought of turning the mainline series into this PoTW fever dream, I've been giving this a lot of thought lately.

It's like, not only CAN the owners of Pokemon do this... they should be doing it. Now is the time to be doing it. I think that a lot of the ideas being shared for a bigger and more ambitious Pokemon experience are fundamentally incompatible with the original appeal and accessibility of the mainline Pokemon game franchise, but would be awesome in their own game that isn't held back by Pokemon traditions.
 

Spinluck

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
28,472
Chicago
And that's honestly why I hate this discussion. Because I know for a damn fact if S&S played the exact same as all of the previous Pokemon titles but merely LOOKED like Xeno or BOTW, the very same detractors would hail it as the greatest evolution the series has seen.

What about reincluding and expanding on the PSS from gen 6 so that the people you interact with actual populate your world? What about allowing experienced Pokemon players to choose their difficulty at the start of the game so they can jump right in and avoid the tutorials? What about allowing players to choose which town they start from, ergo permissing the player to tackle the map in any order? What about utilizing online profiles and data so that, when you are champion of the league and are challenged, there's a constant rotation of new trainers to face? What about allowing the player to choose what path they want to take, whether it be gym leader, ranger, evil henchmen, or what have you, and allow the story, as well as goals, shaped around that path?

I mean, I could keep goin, but there's so so SO much more ways you can ask to improve the immersiveness of Pokemon without so lazily and unimaginatively always pointing to graphics.

Pretty much this. A true reimagining would rework the key root qualities in Pokemon games.

BoTW isn't praised for it's technical prowess--actually many on here hound it for that, yet you have the same people asking for BoTWmon while simultaneously eviscerating the game's presentation.

There's so many ways the series can evolve beyond open fields for the sake of openness and visuals. So many interesting mechanics and design choices to be thought up but it's always the same superficial fluff that's brought up.
 

Kaitos

Tens across the board!
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
14,707
I don't really need the gameplay loop of Pokemon to change, but I do think you can make fundamental shifts in certain designs that would open it up a lot without tinkering with the parts of Pokemon that people love.
 

MagnusGman

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,041
Dallas
I was hoping for something more in the announcement. Not even really something on the scale of Breath of the Wild. But just maybe a bit more radical than just another Pokemon game. It's kind of how I felt after Twilight Princess. I'm really waning on the tried and true formula.
 

jerk

Member
Nov 6, 2017
751
Pretty much this. A true reimagining would rework the key root qualities in Pokemon games.

BoTW isn't praised for it's technical prowess--actually many on here hound it for that, yet you have the same people asking for BoTWmon while simultaneously eviscerating the game's presentation.

There's so many ways the series can evolve beyond open fields for the sake of openness and visuals. So many interesting mechanics and design choices to be thought up but it's always the same superficial fluff that's brought up.
This makes sense as long as you just ignore tons of posts in this thread that do just that.
You trade with someone who has the other version.

Boy that was easy.
Unless you have to mail in your cart to gamefreak to get Mew, or go to Pokémon distribution events to have legendary Pokémon handed to you fresh from the factory line.

Granted with DLC they could (and would unless there's a strong direction against it) do the same thing just digitally for a price. I'd like to think with the creative direction this fabled POTW would take, it'd have a sizable chunk of content with it including side quests leading to maybe a new area with the legendaries.


At the same time I have to say having two versions of the game in 2019 is silly.