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ffdgh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,893
The Mushroom Kingdom
Why are there are only four skin tones for the player character? It's been the same thing since Sun and Moon. Why arent there more options?

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Is this supposed to be as ambitious as Game Freak can get? Do they realise that there's more variance in skin tone than this?
No kidding. At least give 7 skin options like splatoon does or a slider.
 

Hydrus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,298
The Pokemon Company holds all the cards does it not? They lend the IP company out to other companies like Game Freak.

Maybe they see all that money but maybe Game Freak only sees a tiny amount. How is that figure calculated? Is it the combined value of all the merchandise, anime etc?
LOL WTF?! Game Freak owns and created Pokemon. The Pokemon Company was formed so they can manage the IP. TCP is made up of Nintendo, GF, and Creatures inc., all copyright holders to Pokemon.
 

Pata Hikari

Banned
Jan 15, 2018
2,030
Do we reallllly have to go through a "mainline pokemon needs to stop being turn-based" episode?
There are a lot of people who got into Pokemon through the multi-media aspects.

These people like the aesthetics of Pokemon, but don't like the core gameplay of Monster Catching JRPG. They want Pokemon to be something they like more.
 

MetalBoi

Banned
Dec 21, 2017
3,176
Pokemon sells 15 million+ and has jumped $20 in price. What's wrong with having expectations that the most profitable series in gaming puts out adequate graphics for an HD system in 2019? Instead of looking like a game from an indie studio

Your opinion would only make sense if we're talking about a company like Compile Heart putting out a 50k selling game. It seems to me you're fine with Nintendo cutting corners to cash in on consumers, instead of pushing boundaries in a billion dollar franchise
Better graphics and resolution and frame rates and higher specs require additional time. I'd much rather have these games come out quicker and look like this instead of 5 years longer and looking like Witcher 3. You have three other systems that favor graphics over dev time. You don't need another.
 

Phendrana

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,042
Melbourne, Australia
Better graphics and resolution and frame rates and higher specs require additional time. I'd much rather have these games come out quicker and look like this instead of 5 years longer and looking like Witcher 3. You have three other systems that favor graphics over dev time. You don't need another.
Or they could do what other devs do, and just hire more staff. But that would hurt the profit margins of their billion dollar franchise!

Better just cut content instead.
 

Aleh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,268
Or they could do what other devs do, and just hire more staff. But that would hurt the profit margins of their billion dollar franchise!

Better just cut content instead.
More staff doesn't mean better looking games, especially if the existing staff doesn't have experience in HD development. They're getting help from Nintendo and they outsource already, but they need to learn HD development themselves first and foremost.
 

PonyStation

Banned
May 24, 2019
664
Better graphics and resolution and frame rates and higher specs require additional time. I'd much rather have these games come out quicker and look like this instead of 5 years longer and looking like Witcher 3. You have three other systems that favor graphics over dev time. You don't need another.

So? Double or triple the dev team. It's embarassing that a small 100 people staffed studio is treated Nintendo's top franchise like it's an indie game. It's become a game of how many corners they can cut and get away with it. We can't keep staying silent about this, when small time Japanese studio's are schooling GameFreak with far less money.

Adequate graphics for an AAA franchise and all Pokemon. That's literally the bare minimum to be expected and they're not hitting even that.

So I'll repeat again, you'd rather have Nintendo make as much money as they can, rather than GameFreak expand and use resources expected of a billion dollar franchise.
 

Phendrana

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,042
Melbourne, Australia
More staff doesn't mean better looking games, especially if the existing staff doesn't have experience in HD development. They're getting help from Nintendo and they outsource already, but they need to learn HD development themselves first and foremost.
Hire staff with experience in HD development. Get Nintendo involved to try and ease them through the process. Developers first struggled with HD development over a decade ago. This should not have been a surprise to them. They failed to plan for this properly - or just think that what they're doing is good enough.

They should be held to the standards of a Nintendo Switch game. Cutting them slack just gives them confidence to keep going the way they are. That's what I don't get about the people defending the graphics/animations/general presentation. Even if you think it's 'good enough' or genuinely like what you see...there has to be an acknowledgement that it's far behind other Nintendo franchises that make less money, right? So why try to stifle criticism of these aspects?

Edit: And this is like their fourth HD game btw.
 

Aleh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,268
Hire staff with experience in HD development. Get Nintendo involved to try and ease them through the process. Developers first struggled with HD development over a decade ago. This should not have been a surprise to them. They failed to plan for this properly - or just think that what they're doing is good enough.

They should be held to the standards of a Nintendo Switch game. Cutting them slack just gives them confidence to keep going the way they are. That's what I don't get about the people defending the graphics/animations/general presentation. Even if you think it's 'good enough' or genuinely like what you see...there has to be an acknowledgement that it's far behind other Nintendo franchises that make less money, right? So why try to stifle criticism of these aspects?

Edit: And this is like their fourth HD game btw.
This is their first 3D HD game. Let's Go started development afterwards.
Also you have to take my word for granted when I say I think the game looks good, even though I too think it can look better. The amount of abuse directed towards them for it is uncalled for, and it was happening before the Dex debacle too. They will keep improving with each new game as they have always done, they won't stop improving because this game is gonna sell well, all their games have sold well and they kept improving the graphics regardless.
That being said, Nintendo does help with development. If Nintendo thought the game didn't look good enough for their own standards they had all the possibilities in this world to correct course, GameFreak isn't against external help as they've been receiving help all these years. I don't get why people act as if GameFreak didn't ask for help or even went out of their way to refuse it, that's insane.
 

Phendrana

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,042
Melbourne, Australia
I don't get why people act as if GameFreak didn't ask for help or even went out of their way to refuse it, that's insane.
As far as I'm concerned - if they were getting adequate help, then it wouldn't look this way. And by that I don't just mean in the polygons and textures sense - it's their world design in particular that is genuinely ass. I mean their big reveal for this game (and seemingly a response to fans hoping for a more open Pokemon game) is to have just a big empty open section that isn't too far removed from Twilight Princess's Hyrule Field. The individual routes look just as corridor-like as Sun and Moon.

Obviously it's possible that they've managed to hide some aspects of this for future trailers, but knowing GF...I just don't have faith. You can say 'they will improve with each new game' and that may be true, but it won't be quick enough to stop the comparisons between Pokemon and other, lesser franchises from being kind of embarrassing.
 

Aleh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,268
As far as I'm concerned - if they were getting adequate help, then it wouldn't look this way. And by that I don't just mean in the polygons and textures sense - it's their world design in particular that is genuinely ass. I mean their big reveal for this game (and seemingly a response to fans hoping for a more open Pokemon game) is to have just a big empty open section that isn't too far removed from Twilight Princess's Hyrule Field. The individual routes look just as corridor-like as Sun and Moon.

Obviously it's possible that they've managed to hide some aspects of this for future trailers, but knowing GF...I just don't have faith.
Let's not act like even BOTW is devoid of big empty areas. That's a common criticism of the game. I'll wait until I can play the game to judge the level design, the Wild area also has tighter areas within itself as is obvious from the map.
 

zMiiChy-

Member
Dec 12, 2017
1,881
I'm surprised about how much disdain the Pokémon franchise has received lately.

It felt like critics were the minority when Let's Go released, but not complaints seem to be blowing up everywhere.

It really seems like confirmation of only selected Pokémon for future entries and Pokémon home were the last straw for a lot of fans.
 

Phendrana

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,042
Melbourne, Australia
Let's not act like even BOTW is devoid of big empty areas. That's a common criticism of the game. I'll wait until I can play the game to judge the level design, the Wild area also has tighter areas within itself as is obvious from the map.
Breath of the Wild is an actual open-world game, though. It's a massive environment, and the negative space only serves to highlight actual points of interest.

Game Freak's attempt with the Wild Area seems to completely misunderstand why people actually like open-world games. I'll be very surprised it remains interesting throughout an entire playthrough. It basically seems like they just needed a bigger area so some of the larger Pokemon would be able to walk around, since you couldn't have a Steelix on their regular corridor routes.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,607
So? Double or triple the dev team. It's embarassing that a small 100 people staffed studio is treated Nintendo's top franchise like it's an indie game. It's become a game of how many corners they can cut and get away with it. We can't keep staying silent about this, when small time Japanese studio's are schooling GameFreak with far less money.

Adequate graphics for an AAA franchise and all Pokemon. That's literally the bare minimum to be expected and they're not hitting even that.

So I'll repeat again, you'd rather have Nintendo make as much money as they can, rather than GameFreak expand and use resources expected of a billion dollar franchise.

it's not. These games still cost millions despite what memes might have you believe. The move to 3D models was probably one of the boldest and most expensive changes to an IP I can think of in terms of investment, and you can be sure they were going to make a whole lot of use from that type of thing. Its not just the older models either, since these games will likely have hundreds of models and thousands of animations.
 

Aleh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,268
Breath of the Wild is an actual open-world game, though. It's a massive environment, and the negative space only serves to highlight actual points of interest.

Game Freak's attempt with the Wild Area seems to completely misunderstand why people actually like open-world games. I'll be very surprised it remains interesting throughout an entire playthrough. It basically seems like they just needed a bigger area so some of the larger Pokemon would be able to walk around, since you couldn't have a Steelix on their regular corridor routes.
The Wild Area feels like a natural environment in which Pokémon can actually live, and it's designed more organically than the rest of the game. I think it's clear what the appeal is. Everyone was really happy when it was shown, it seems once again unnecessary to downplay it just because of the Dex controversy.
I personally think open world games that are too big for their own good aren't great design, I much prefer the approach Xenoblade 1/2 are going for.
 

The Emperor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,790
Expecting it to look as good as Dragon Quest XI on Switch does would be a good 'hypothetical utopian' barometer

But reality is this is Game Freak's first proper HD, 3D pokemon. What did you expect?

I think they have somewhat failed in making the art style good/consistent. It looks a bit bare bones atm.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,624
canada
Didnt Gamefreak make HD pokemon spin offs on Wii U

They should have experience in this.

Gamefreak shouldve put BOTW in the first slot of their team and worn a exp share or something.
 

IzzyRX

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
5,814
There's a gif like this, but starting from gen 1 I think?

If someone find it, send it to me please.
 

Weeniekuns

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,111
User Warned: Lazy Dev Rhetoric
They are lazy but it honestly doesnt matter because it will sell like crazy, why waste the effort?
 

Soran

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
697
The Wild Area feels like a natural environment in which Pokémon can actually live, and it's designed more organically than the rest of the game. I think it's clear what the appeal is. Everyone was really happy when it was shown, it seems once again unnecessary to downplay it just because of the Dex controversy.
I personally think open world games that are too big for their own good aren't great design, I much prefer the approach Xenoblade 1/2 are going for.
Stop trivializing abuse. Calling out a multimillion company is not fucking abuse.
 

jerk

Member
Nov 6, 2017
751
Better graphics and resolution and frame rates and higher specs require additional time. I'd much rather have these games come out quicker and look like this instead of 5 years longer and looking like Witcher 3. You have three other systems that favor graphics over dev time. You don't need another.
Dev time would so so much more than just make the graphics pretty. They could add tons of worthwhile content as well. It's not like the other 90 Pokémon games that play identically are going anywhere while we wait.
Oh spare me the lecture. I have seen actual abuse both here and on Twitter especially. You're not being smart or original by trying to paint others as corporate apologists.
Here? Where? Show it. I've seen mean comments and some Lazy Dev Rhetoric, not any abuse.


Indie games looks better than this lmao.
There's one post here that made me laugh that said it looks like a budget PS Vita hentai game
 

Soran

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
697
Oh spare me the lecture. I have seen actual abuse both here and on Twitter especially. You're not being smart or original by trying to paint others as corporate apologists.
Examples? Maybe your bar for "abuse" is different than the one for the rest of us. I still yet to see someone saying they are going to kill Masuda mom.
 

TyraZaurus

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,439
Joe Merrick came onto this forum and said he'd actually been harassed, and this forum's response was to basically say people are mad and it's the internet and he should get used to it.
 

JetBazooka

Banned
Jan 25, 2018
336
For me, I would prefer if they didn't cut gameplay mechanics that people liked from gen to gen. I enjoyed cross-gen evolutions, triple battles, rotation battles, inverse battles, mega evolutions, and Z-Moves. They're all out in favor of mechanics like Dynamaxing, which are less interesting to me. Cutting mechanics doesn't make a series evolve. These are all changes to the general battle mechanics that have been cut in favor of making your Pokemon bigger for three turns, or just cut because Game Freak wanted them to be cut. The series has been stagnant, and this game doesn't look to be fixing anything particularly well.
also Id like hard mode, new game+, etc, multiple game save files would be nice as well.
 

jerk

Member
Nov 6, 2017
751
There are a lot of people who got into Pokemon through the multi-media aspects.

These people like the aesthetics of Pokemon, but don't like the core gameplay of Monster Catching JRPG. They want Pokemon to be something they like more.
I've seen the "you want them to change genres completely!" posts before and they're usually just depressing to read.
Like. Even if Pokemon's overworld exploration and side content was 100% identical to Breath Of The Wild in terms of abilities and the like.... if its battles remained turn based and you caught pokemon (perhaps in a bigger variety of ways) it'd still be an rpg.

I do see people say they'd like a real time combat system so perhaps that's what you're taking about but i've had posters say to me that that alone would constitute a genre change that kills the appeal of pokemon.
 

jerk

Member
Nov 6, 2017
751
Im pretty sure the people threatening the official twitter count as abuse toward employees.
Not sure why Joe is exempt from this issue as someone who runs the biggest fan site.
I'm sure that exists on twitter, but what about here? People here have posted abusive messages to nintendo employees?
Threatened Joe?
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,607
I'm sure that exists on twitter, but what about here? People here have posted abusive messages to nintendo employees?
Threatened Joe?

Oh, specifically here? I don't know. I've seen some really mean spirited stuff that I wouldn't call abuse necessarily.
You can bet that on the discords and twitters, those same people would be a lot more unrestrained.
 

jerk

Member
Nov 6, 2017
751
qXkK2tT.png



I also have another one full of homophobic language, but that's just after a cursory search.
That looks an awfully lot like a twitter screenshot. And a pretty mean comment! But. I mean. Abuse? Someone being mean to you isn't abuse. The homophonic apple i swear to god homophobic is a word one sounds pretty bad though. Was that here?
 

TyraZaurus

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,439
I didn't knew Joe worked for GameFreak? We are talking about the devs not regular users

Spamming the official twitter, who doesn't have anything to do with these decisions, isn't exactly what I'd call "fair"

Or maybe you haven't seen the QAnon style infographics or other bullshit about how bad GF and Masuda are, and the fact that communities are banning people who don't run with the prevailing opinion.

That looks an awfully lot like a twitter screenshot. And a pretty mean comment! But. I mean. Abuse? Someone being mean to you isn't abuse. The homophonic one sounds pretty bad though. Was that here?

How many goal posts are you gonna move before you accept that a large majority of the backlash has people being assholes? You're not doing your side any favors by downplaying this stuff happening all over the place - especially since this frothing mass is part of the "fans" GameFreak is supposed to listen to. It's certainly not being favorable or courteous to people who have experienced this kind of harassment, to say "it's not here so it's not our problem", or telling the individual in question that it's his responsibility to endure it or to tell people what they're supposed to do instead of scream at him or demand he help get their message across, like I saw on this forum yesterday. Not to mention, it may not be "abusive", but to dismiss other people's arguments as them being shills, capitalist apologists, or whatever the hell else instead of respectfully engaging them as fellow posters isn't showing them the same courtesy you're asking them to show you.

And what's more, "lazy dev" style criticism has dominated these discussions since the outset. That shit's against the rules, so saying it's been present is pretty much damning with faint praise.
 
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Soran

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
697
Spamming the official twitter, who doesn't have anything to do with these decisions, isn't exactly what I'd call "fair"

Or maybe you haven't seen the QAnon style infographics or other bullshit about how bad GF and Masuda are, and the fact that communities are banning people who don't run with the prevailing opinion.



How many goal posts are you gonna move before you accept that a large majority of the backlash has people being assholes? You're not doing your side any favors by downplaying this stuff happening all over the place - especially since this frothing mass is part of the "fans" GameFreak is supposed to listen to. It's certainly not being favorable or courteous to people who have experienced this kind of harassment, to say "it's not here so it's not our problem", or telling the individual in question that it's his responsibility to endure it or to tell people what they're supposed to do instead of scream at him or demand he help get their message across, like I saw on this forum yesterday. Not to mention, it may not be "abusive", but to dismiss other people's arguments as them being shills, capitalist apologists, or whatever the hell else instead of respectfully engaging them as fellow posters isn't showing them the same courtesy you're asking them to show you.

And what's more, "lazy dev" style criticism has dominated these discussions since the outset. That shit's against the rules, so saying it's been present is pretty much damning with faint praise.
And in the other hand the fans have called people manchildren, entitled, inmature, bigots(lol) and other things for daring to gasp! cancel their own pre-orders.
 

TyraZaurus

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,439
And in the other hand the fans have called people manchildren, entitled, inmature, bigots(lol) and other things for daring to gasp! cancel their own pre-orders.

Not really gonna pretend that isn't happening, but when it's being inflicted on one of the pillars of the community whose given as much as he's received for this fandom, you really have to stop and ask yourself who doesn't have the most negative reach.
 
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