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ThisIsBlitz21

Member
Oct 22, 2018
4,663
So, Pokemon generation 7 is a really controversial topic, some love it, others hate it.

.Now you might be looking at the title, and going "But Heartgold had two different regions!" or "Black/White 2 were full on sequels!", and you would sorta be right, but let me clarify that by ambition I dont mean how much content you can cram in the game. I mean getting more creative, taking more risks with the tried and true formula, even if they all dont pay off. As much as I like Heartgold and Black 2, way more than gen 7, they were still relatively safe games that follow the established formula closely.


Here's what Pokemon Sun/Moon did to really shake up the formula (not all of them are for the better, in my opinion):
- Remove gyms, add trials and kahuna battles instead. You fight a boss pokemon, the totems, that is of a bigger size than the normal species, instead of a gym leader. A lot of totems, at least in my experience, were way harder than gyms have ever been.
- Alolan forms: regional variants of pokemon from other regions, adding a sense of freshness to otherwise old creatures.
- Z-moves: Superpowered moves with a really cool animation, though you can only it once per battle, and it takes up the item slot. Most balanced and fair Pokemon "gimmick" so far. While X/Y only had you verse a mega only THREE TIMES in the story, Z-moves are used more abundantly, even with random ace trainers.
- Ultra Beasts, these weird other-worldly pokemon that are from other dimensions.
- Finally gets rid of HM's, with Pokemon
- Completely replaces the bottom screen features with a Rotom dex that talks to you, and has an included pokemon snap like minigame.
- Adds the Poke Pelago
- Adds the Festival Plaza, replaces the perfectly fine PSS (bad change)
- Make Alola the first non grid-based region, and improving the battle presentation significantly with way more detailed backgrounds and human triainers behind Pokemon.

This is not even an exhaustive list, by the way. The point is, Sun/Moon threw the Pokemon you knew out the window. The story is drastically different from past Pokemon games to, breaking traditions of the series.

There's more focus on story now, which also breaks some traditions, with there now being two different evil teams

Pokemon Ultra Sun, I feel like, is all about making Alola more lived in.
- You can interact and play with other people's pokemon.
- You can see more of them in the wild, like wingulls flying above the first route
- Short little vignettes, almost like side-missions, that breathe more life into the region

I think the USUM Alola, despite still being linear to a fault, feels like the most lived-in and believable region region.
In addition:
- 100 new pokemon added to the regional pokedex, including a few brand new ones.
- Side activities like Mantine Surf and Photo Club (which has surprisingly depth)
- Rainbow Rocket, Battle Agency, Ultra Warp Ride make the entire post-game drastically better.
- Ability to own totem sized pokemon (always wanted different sized pokemon of the same species, this was our first foray into it)
- QOL changes across the board (only one SOS call per battle, some pokemon evolve way earlier in the game)
- The mountainous area before Pokemon League has become a full fledged victory road.
- Added difficulty, probably some of the most difficult games in the series.

The main issue with the changes are, the most drastic ones are near the end of the game, meaning that the majority of it would largely feel the same. The same flaws remain. The handholding, the linearity, the slow as molasses cutscenes and dialogue.


The story, I admit it's worse, just not as focused. They completely butcher Lusamine's arc, in an attempt to tie in Necrozma to the plot. I think they could've kept her arc fine, and implement Necrozma at the same time. I think Lillie's story is a bit weaker too.

Even if you don't like US/UM, I don't see how you can call this game a cash-grab, and worship Crystal and Emerald at the same time. This changes more than those two games ever did. I think USUM is better in every way except than the originals except story.

This is one of my favourite moments from Ultra-Sun:



It's really weirdly disturbing, especially for Pokemon standards. I liked visiting the wierd-wacky envorinments these ultra beasts call their home (even if they were straight corridors)... but Guzzlord just takes the cake. It's in a ruined city. The music sounds like Hau'Oli city, but reversed and distorted, like it's coming from a broken radio, and Guzzlord has wreaking havoc there. And once it dawns on you, where exactly you are, (Hau'Oli but in a different dimension), it's really chilling.

This moment sort of encapsulates how weird and wacky Game Freak went with the 7th generation. And although I can't call these games much more that "good", due to huge flaws, I really appreciate Game Freak actually attempting to take risks, really try to up the ante compared to past games.

I hope they really go balls out creative again, for generation 9, cause I know the teams there are capable of something special. Hopefully they get enough to deliver finished and fully featured games this time around. Thoughts?
 

Rockets

Member
Sep 12, 2018
3,020
People will come around to loving Gen 7 just like how they came around Gen 5. Sun and Moon campaign is up there with BW, Emerald, and Platinum as one of the best campaigns in Pokémon. It's a shame the postgame never reached the same heights. Still a phenomenal gen though.
 

Weebos

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,060
The gen 7 games are my favorite by far. I absolutely fell in love with Alola.
 

DNAbro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,016
Fuck yeah it was. The amount of effort when it came to world building is far above the other Pokémon games and is a large part of why Sword/Shield disappointed me. Felt like such a step back in that regard.

Yes, there are some issues gameplay wise and wish some locations were more fleshed out but hell I loved actually being in Alola. Give me another region that feels like it has its own culture and that have locations that actually make sense.

Also yeah Sun/Moon's story is the best in the series. USUM's extra side stories/quests livened up the world and the series needs that desperately.
 

Bedameister

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,945
Germany
I really loved SM. Really cool world with interesting characters. A little bit too much cut-scenes imo but the rest was great.
 

GeeseHoward

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
928
Alola was really ambitions thats for sure, i had a grand old time with it.

I'm not quite sure if Gen 5 wasnt more ambitious, but i think that was more the case of game freak just doing what it does best with thet echnology they were most confortable with rather than pure ambition in attempting new things.
 

EvilChameleon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,793
Ohio
I was glad they made it so Lillie could be your battle partner in the Ultra games instead of shipping her off to Kanto.
 

Aprikurt

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 29, 2017
18,806
All that ambition in glorious 15fps. I wished Pokemon Stars had been true, I'd love to play a technically competent version of this game.
 

oldzac

Member
Jan 22, 2020
186
I came in ready to shit on Sw/Sh and hype up S/M because I misremembered which number we're on. Yes, Sun and Moon were very ambitious for mainline entry Pokemon games, and charming as hell. I wish the Galar region had felt as lived in as Alola, rather than the empty and lifeless shell that we got.
 

sweetie

Alt account
Banned
May 19, 2020
334
I tried so hard to get into this gen because it seemed like it was trying to change things up, but couldn't. The constant cut scenes with the endless dialogue and boring plot, the trials which accomplished nothing but make me wish they just brought gyms back, and the...Z-moves? Which I don't think I ever used once in the entire game.
 

Phellps

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,872
My only issue with Alola is how the game interrupts you every 5 to 10 minutes to make you watch characters talk. Everything else was amazing.
 

Starlatine

533.489 paid youtubers cant be wrong
Member
Oct 28, 2017
30,534
sun and moon were okay, but i really didnt like USUM retcons to the story

i also enjoyed the totem battles but i feel like they can coexist with gyms, no need to be an either/or

and i feel that despite streamlining HMs (which is a good thing) they didnt make proper use of their timing in the story to encourage exploration (which is a bad thing)

But most of the downsides i had with SM vanished when i saw what SWSH did. at least as basic as they were SM still had dungeons

and obligatory "fuck that dude on the large dog blocking the road"
 

dunkzilla

alt account
Banned
Dec 13, 2018
4,762
My least favourite generation by a huge distance and the only mainline Pokémon games I dropped and didn't finish.
 

Axe

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,780
United Kingdom
I've always liked Sun and Moon, despite its flaws. Gen 7 was a huge step up from X & Y, which is the most milquetoast adventure in the series looking back on it.
 

Galkinator

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,010
First pokemon games I started and haven't finished. The amount of hand holding, cut-scenes, tutorials etc the game throws at you and the overall slow pace is just ridiculous and off-putting. I appreciate the changes to the formula but personally I felt like the game tries really hard to not make me play the damn thing. (I only played the ultra versions dunno if it's better/worse in the base games)
 

Poltergust

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,882
Orlando, FL
Literally the only reason I picked up Sun/Moon was because it was the first truly 3D Pokemon game that finally got rid of the grid-based movement.

X/Y don't exist to me.
 

Wise

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,228
Gen 7 had a lot of good ideas and the concept was very cool. In the end the execution was a disaster imo. They tried making a traditional JRPG "cinematic" experience and it did not work imo.
 

GuitarGuruu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,521
I liked it enough but man it really is a drag to replay the games due to all the constant stopping for needless cutscenes. (Ones that aren't related to story, literally camera pans)
 

Oswen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
806
Overall I liked gen 7 more than 6 and 8.
Ambitious? The games had some nice ideas, like regional forms, a great starter trio, colorful region and UBs but were also plagued by a few issues that couldn't be solved even in US/UM, like the excessive handholding and a storyline that is not bad but a bit too intrusive.
Oh and good music, but that has always been good in Pokémon games, with a few exceptions.
 

EVA UNIT 01

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,741
CA
I'll never come around on 7.
Hate the setting and the vibe.
Hate the cast.
Hate the gym replacements.

Wasn't for me.
 

Deleted member 25140

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,076
Games were great, one of my favourite Pokemon's for sure. The story was so good, Alola was a fantastic region and the new Pokemon designs are some of the best we've ever seen.

Still wish the Ultra games had been a BW2 like sequel or even just had you take a different route through Alola but I loved Gen 7 none the less.
 
Jun 10, 2019
449
One of my goals next year is to sit down and finish USUM.

I've tried twice to finish these games and never been able to do it.

They took the wrong lesson from BW and made the game to story driven.
 
OP
OP

ThisIsBlitz21

Member
Oct 22, 2018
4,663
My main point, in this thread, isnt even to convince you that theyre good (even though I liked them).

Its to convince people that Game Freak really tried. They didnt rest on their laurels like they did with X/Y. A huge notion before Sun/Moons release was "theyre all the same game" and "its getting stale", and these games represented a huge pushback towards that.
 
Last edited:
Jun 10, 2019
449
My main point, in this thread, isnt even to convince you that theyre good (even though I liked them).

Its to convince people that Game Freak really tried. They didnt rest on their laurels like they did with X/Y. A huge notion before Sun/Moons release was "theyre all the same game" and "its getting stale", and these games were a huge pushback towards that.

They did that with BW/BW2 and they succeeded.

They created some of the most well received Pokemon games and immediately sled backwards.
 

pokéfan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,305
I've loved gen 7 from day 1, i never understood the backlash for it, it's the most refreshing and innovating experience for a mainline title. It changes alot up for the better.
 

sweetie

Alt account
Banned
May 19, 2020
334
They did that with BW/BW2 and they succeeded.

They created some of the most well received Pokemon games and immediately sled backwards.
Yup. Gen 5 as a whole felt like a "ok, you want different? Fine, here's different" from Gamefreak, and they did it almost flawlessly. The fact that we went from that to Gen 6-8 is shocking.
 

milkyway

One Winged Slayer
Member
May 17, 2018
3,017
Alola is for me one of the most refreshing campaigns in the series. I'm not offended by cutscenes so I found a lot to love in the setting, the music, the characters, the pokemon variety, even the well balanced difficulty. Significant post game failings and minimal QOL aside, I've gotta agree that it did shake the formula up as far as the main campaign and succeeded.
 

Oswen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
806
They did that with BW/BW2 and they succeeded.

They created some of the most well received Pokemon games and immediately sled backwards.

They did but the response they got at that time wasn't extremely encouraging.
Gen 5 is highly regarded now (and for good reasons) but B/W received alot of criticism back in the days mostly because they "ditched" old pokémon (but you could transfer them) and because of "bad knock-off" like designs.
B/W ended up not selling that well either, for Pokémon standards that is.

They tried to correct that in B/W2 by adding old pokémon right from the bat and I fear that's what pushed them to the blatant older gens (specially Gen 1) pandering in X/Y that still lingers in other forms to this day.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,893
A lot of those changes don't seem to be any more drastic than the changes between previous games and some of them are purely just from tech advances (like more detailed battle backgrounds). They didn't really seem much more ambitious. If anything they just seemed like another attempt at changing things which they succeeded to some degree. I still believe Gen 5 (since you're including SM + USUM) were the most ambitious. They region still retained its complexity, and it was still getting badges + the league, but the way they changed the story was excellent. It's telling when you look at the Pokemon Special video how tonally different Gen 5 is. All the other scenes are really cheery and with Gen 5 it's just Hilbert, Hilda, and N looking serious
 
Jun 10, 2019
449
They did but the response they got at that time wasn't extremely encouraging.
Gen 5 is highly regarded now (and for good reasons) but B/W received alot of criticism back in the days mostly because they "ditched" old pokémon (but you could transfer them) and because of "bad knock-off" like designs.
B/W ended up not selling that well either, for Pokémon standards that is.

They tried to correct that in B/W2 by adding old pokémon right from the bat and I fear that's what pushed them to the blatant older gens (specially Gen 1) pandering in X/Y that still lingers in other forms to this day.

I'm aware. I was of the party who defended Game Freaks decision to wipe the slate clean and try a different approach with their games. Even went to the launch party for BW at Nintendo World.

I'd have to agree with you on the pandering. When XY was released they aired Origins which wasn't even subtle about who it was trying to appeal to.

I wonder if GF knows the people buying their games wouldn't mind a BW esque game again. Considering the demographic of older Pokemon fans.
 

King Kingo

Banned
Dec 3, 2019
7,656
I loved Sun and Moon. I just wish that Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon were on the Nintendo Switch as opposed to being stuck on the 3DS.