• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,130
Firstly: For or against, if any of y'all start arguing about the Dex outside of the gameplay context of this topic I will turn this car around, so help me god. Freely debate the actual subject matter of the topic at hand all you want, whether you agree or disagree, but stray into "my favorites didn't make it in this game sucks" or "whining about dexit is the same as gamer gate" and we're through. And I won't hesitate to report anyone doing it deliberately just to get the topic shut for trolling.

Now, with that out of the way, there's an aspect of this whole mess that I think goes under addressed that I want to discuss. More than anything else, and I do have other issues for other topics, it is the biggest problem with the limited dex being the norm going forward.

And that's format.

Let's look to Magic the Gathering for a moment. For those of you unaware, MtG is a trading card game with multiple new sets released every year. Because of this, the format primarily supported by Wizards of the Coast, makers of MtG, is Standard.

Standard is a rotating format that consists of the most recent sets, dropping the sets released prior to fall of the previous year every fall.

General consensus is that standard right now is fucking atrocious.

The good news, however, is that MtG has many formats, including a plethora of legacy formats. Very recently, in fact, the Pioneer format, wherein cards from every set starting at 2012's Return to Ravnica forward onward are legal, was introduced has been a smash hit.

There are other formats that alter the rules and card pools for the game, but let's set those aside for now. We'll get back to them.

So even in the event standard is bad, there are still other formats to enjoy.

But what does that have to do with Pokemon?

Well, up to and including Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon, Pokemon has had two major formats. One based on the regional dex (Standard) and ome based on the national dex (even when SuMo didn't have an in-game one) akin to Legacy.

With every game from here on out being limited to the regional dex, there will be no legacy options. The problems with this are twofold.

Less obviously is the fact that you will not be able to build teams of Pokemon that aren't in the same regional dex. If you see a cool combo Minior and one of the new SwSh Pokemon would be able to do together, too bad. You won't be able to try it until they're both in the same regional dex, if that ever happens.

And more obviously? For an entire year there will be no escaping a bad standard.

And yes, Pokemon has variant formats like little cup and singles (or doubles for those of you who don't consider vgc format the primary one). But that's in the same way MtG has its own variations such as Pauper or EDH (told you I'd get back to these). But the difference is that those can be (and usually are) also legacy formats. You can choose to play them with only cards in standard, but you don't have to. In Pokemon, tou'll still be limited to only the regional pool.

And while it's cool the competitive scene gets shaken up every year, that happened regardless. The regional dex was always changing and could always be played as the equivalent to standard
The difference is that now, as long as this remains policy, we will never have a legacy format again.

And that, in my view, is the real bummer.
 

IzzyRX

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
5,816
Honestly, there's no good way to look at this situation, but I do think the metagame would be better if TPCi used more bans, a 'usable' list and kept rotating to keep things fresh.
We know this franchise won't last forever, but I see this as move that may end up hurting the franchise in the long run.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,381
Honestly, there's no good way to look at this situation, but I do think the metagame would be better if TPCi used more bans, a 'usable' list and kept rotating to keep things fresh.
We know this franchise won't last forever, but I see this as move that may end up hurting the franchise in the long run.

Converting Pokémon to more of a live service and having rotating Pokémon and quarterly drops of new monsters seems like a brilliant idea that they would never go for.
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,515
UK
The idea of a Pokemon standard makes me feel sick.

Now fuck the Magic comparison, lets look at Yu-Gi-Oh. Everything is legal no matter when it release. Unless you're on banned list.

Edit: I missed an obvious joke. You want everything to become a 3/3 elk?
 

kaisere

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,283
The idea of a Pokemon standard makes me feel sick.

Now fuck the Magic comparison, lets look at Yu-Gi-Oh. Everything is legal no matter when it release. Unless you're on banned list.

Edit: I missed an obvious joke. You want everything to become a 3/3 elk?

Yugi isn't a great example though because the F/L list is essentially a soft rotation. Staple cards remain legal but there are always one or two key cards in archetypes that get hit that essentially remove them from the metagame.

The MTG comparison is highlighting one important thing that people ware ignoring though; the Pokemon meta does get shaken up every new Gen even with the National Dex in, because there format tends to only allow Pokemon that are bred/caught in the new region or who appear in the regional dex which is essentially the same thing as not including them competitively.
 

Busaiku

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,513
The idea of a Pokemon standard makes me feel sick.

Now fuck the Magic comparison, lets look at Yu-Gi-Oh. Everything is legal no matter when it release. Unless you're on banned list.

Edit: I missed an obvious joke. You want everything to become a 3/3 elk?
Pokémon's always had a "standard".
At the onset of every gen, you're only allowed to use Pokémon in that region's dex.
It opens up more every year, but the format always changed.
 

Jessie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,921
The problem with the dex cuts is Pokémon Home. If it offers battles and breeding and all of that, then there's not as much of a reason to be upset because the gameplay people expect will still exist.

But if you can't do anything with the cut Pokémon, then it's even worse than an optional MTG format because the format is forced on players and there's no alternative.
 

Deleted member 18857

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,083
The thing I like about this is that we're finally free from the most oppressive semi-legendaries. Bye-bye Heatran, Landorus and the rest, you will not be missed (until they're inevitably re-added). This is also why I don't mind mega evolutions to be gone: they were interesting while they lasted, but they were a bit too meta-defining. Same with the Tapus. See you again in a couple of years.
I know we had some outliers like the Pachirisu event, but the top tiers were really too powerful to allow for real inventive teams.

However, I haven't thought of this:
And more obviously? For an entire year there will be no escaping a bad standard.
This is indeed a very big issue. If the Pokémon that are in the game haven't been picked with competitive in mind (either because they focused on the balance during the campaign, or popularity, or personal preference), then we'll end up with something as bad as 2016 "Everything was Primals and Rayquaza".

Have they said anything about any balance change to the game? Like changes to the type weaknesses, or power/Accuracy changes to the most common moves?
 

Dolce

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,252
I don't want Game Freak to have to worry about bringing forward every single old Pokemon as this becomes more and more difficult. We're not talking about cards where you can just use old cards that were ALREADY PRINTED.

Comparing it to a physical card game is silly.
 

Maple

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,735
The problem with the dex cuts is Pokémon Home. If it offers battles and breeding and all of that, then there's not as much of a reason to be upset because the gameplay people expect will still exist.

People want to battle and trade and use their Pokemon in the games. I doubt many want to download a separete app for a subscription fee to make the trade they want or battle with their favorites.

If that's the direction then what's the point of the games? To experience the award winning storytelling?
 

kaisere

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,283
I don't want Game Freak to have to worry about bringing forward every single old Pokemon as this becomes more and more difficult. We're not talking about cards where you can just use old cards that were ALREADY PRINTED.

Comparing it to a physical card game is silly.

How is it different than balancing things around cards that haven't been printed in 15 years?
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,515
UK
Pokémon's always had a "standard".
At the onset of every gen, you're only allowed to use Pokémon in that region's dex.
It opens up more every year, but the format always changed.
Ah okay. I've never paid too close attention to the Pokemon competitive scene.

But all I'm getting from this is:
3f4d0ed2-3fc5-4cb0-b886-e30b21e76872.jpg

A bad standard drives people away. Hell I'm starting to not want to play MTGA because it's stuck in standard. There very much is a concern for people hating Pokemon because they're stuck with their 3/3 elks.
 

kaisere

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,283
Ah okay. I've never paid too close attention to the Pokemon competitive scene.

But all I'm getting from this is:

A bad standard drives people away. Hell I'm starting to not want to play MTGA because it's stuck in standard. There very much is a concern for people hating Pokemon because they're stuck with their 3/3 elks.

I think that's the point though, I believe the OP is trying to say that removing the rest of the Dex limits us to the current pool as if it were Standard, so if it is a bad format there's no way around it; whereas in games that have the full Dex, you can play other metas.
 

Dolce

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,252
Pokemon Go has 530 Pokémon on shitty $100 phones, and they brought back Shadow Pokémon from the GameCube games.

It also launched with 151 Pokemon and is a living game built around F2P microtransactions.

If you want Pokemon to become a F2P living game where they slowly add the old generation Pokemon, that could also be done I guess. They've never added all the old Pokemon in one go, and that game has made tons of money.

How is it different than balancing things around cards that haven't been printed in 15 years?

You're balancing around something that already exists, versus having to constantly move or recreate assets. SWSH is them drawing a line with each generation adding more and more new Pokemon.

There's no other game that brings back every single old enemy on the scale of Pokemon.
 

Yukiko

Member
Feb 21, 2019
904
Spain
DP remakes release next year so we play DP regional dex next year and then the year after that the ruleset is GS Cup in the DP remakes too. I wouldn't worry too much about it
 
OP
OP
The Adder

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,130
A bad standard drives people away. Hell I'm starting to not want to play MTGA because it's stuck in standard. There very much is a concern for people hating Pokemon because they're stuck with their 3/3 elks.
I think that's the point though, I believe the OP is trying to say that removing the rest of the Dex limits us to the current pool as if it were Standard, so if it is a bad format there's no way around it; whereas in games that have the full Dex, you can play other metas.
Moreover, it's worse in that even in a bad standard in MtG there are new cards added every 3-ish months. At worst the meta stays trash but changes. What I dread is Pokemon hitting a bad regional meta now. Because we'll be saddled with it, unchanged, for a year.
 

Yukiko

Member
Feb 21, 2019
904
Spain
Moreover, it's worse in that even in a bad standard in MtG there are new cards added every 3-ish months. At worst the meta stays trash but changes. What I dread is Pokemon hitting a bad regional meta now. Because we'll be saddled with it, unchanged, for a year.

Well, some VGC formats have been better than others, even when we had the national dex in the games. VGC17 ended up being a match up roulette and most players got tired of it towards the end of the meta
 
OP
OP
The Adder

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,130
Well, some VGC formats have been better than others, even when we had the national dex in the games. VGC17 ended up being a match up roulette and most players got tired of it towards the end of the meta
Yeah, but you had the freedom to play a different meta.

I'm not just talking tournaments. I'm also talking more general competitive.
 

Palidoozy

Concept Artist at Maxis Texas/EA
Verified
Sep 17, 2019
35
Austin, Texas
The thing I like about this is that we're finally free from the most oppressive semi-legendaries. Bye-bye Heatran, Landorus and the rest, you will not be missed (until they're inevitably re-added). This is also why I don't mind mega evolutions to be gone: they were interesting while they lasted, but they were a bit too meta-defining. Same with the Tapus. See you again in a couple of years.

As someone bummed by/disagrees with the cut, this is actually the one positive I see from it. It always struck me as weird that semi-legendaries (the tapus, Heatran, etc.) were accepted in mainline competitive play because I always just wrote them into the same category as... y'know, regular legendaries. There was also more incentive to just cheat these ones in rather than breed/raise them on your own, just because... while some folks might not like breeding, 'resetting the game thousands of times for a better nature/IV spread because you have only one chance at doing this' kind of sucks and it's far easier to mentally justify cheating it.

I dunno though, I'm not super involved in the competitive scene so I could be wrong.
 

Busaiku

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,513
I don't get your point then. Are you referring to OU?
You could play OU, UU, NU, PU, make up your own rules, etc.
Now there is only a single format you can follow. Smogon will have their own tier lists, but it's ultimately just a subset, whereas it was its own thing before.
 

Yukiko

Member
Feb 21, 2019
904
Spain
You could play OU, UU, NU, PU, make up your own rules, etc.

Yeah I still don't get OP's point. SwSh OU, SwSh UU and so on will be formats like any other, similar to DP OU, BW2 OU, ORAS NU...

Will these metas that have "SwSh" in their names have a narrower pool of pokémon to use? Yeah. But that's why it's SwSh OU and not Gen 8 National Dex OU. We're making a format off the games so we have to deal with what we have
 
OP
OP
The Adder

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,130
I don't get your point then. Are you referring to OU?
I am more referring to the ability to, as a hypothetical, if Alola regional and National weren't working for your play group, to decide that y'all were going to play Unova regional + Alola regional until the mext game. Or whatever permutation. Basically the flexibility to ad hoc formats to compete in. It's why I brought up Pioneer and not just Vintage or Legacy or Modern.
 

karnage10

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,505
Portugal
It also launched with 151 Pokemon and is a living game built around F2P microtransactions.

If you want Pokemon to become a F2P living game where they slowly add the old generation Pokemon, that could also be done I guess. They've never added all the old Pokemon in one go, and that game has made tons of money.



You're balancing around something that already exists, versus having to constantly move or recreate assets. SWSH is them drawing a line with each generation adding more and more new Pokemon.

There's no other game that brings back every single old enemy on the scale of Pokemon.
There is trilogy called total war warhammer that where each content you buy you can use it in the following game.
Or most of the PDS games that are developed for years adding content above each game. CK2 lasted 7 years.
XCOM 2 also brings almost everything the predecessor has and heavily builds above it.

I'm sorry but there are companies that do bring content from each version, unfortunately i guess people here don't hear about them because they are mostly PC games
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
Converting Pokémon to more of a live service and having rotating Pokémon and quarterly drops of new monsters seems like a brilliant idea that they would never go for.

I honestly don't think that's a good idea. That's way too frequently to get used to a set of new Pokemon and metagame. It's not 1:1 with a TCG.

In that a given card itself might be simple, with the complexity coming from its synergies with other cards and the deck. A given Pokemon, in comparison, still has those same aspects, but also adds a number of different movesets, each with their own EV spreads, ideal ability and ideal nature. Add on top of that whatever generational battle mechanic there is (ie. megas, dyna/gigantomax) and you then have possible form changes as well.

The current cadence of 2-3 years is fine
 

Yukiko

Member
Feb 21, 2019
904
Spain
I am more referring to the ability to, as a hypothetical, if Alola regional and National weren't working for your play group, to decide that y'all were going to play Unova regional + Alola regional until the mext game. Or whatever permutation. Basically the flexibility to ad hoc formats to compete in. It's why I brought up Pioneer and not just Vintage or Legacy or Modern.

Alright I understand it now. Yeah, as I said earlier, the fact that we're creating a metagame with SwSh as a reference will just mean that we have less pokémon to choose from.

Would it be cool to have more options? Yeah, I agree with that. But I'll be honest, most VGC players are already tired of adding Amoonguss, Incineroar, Landorus-T... to their teams.
 

Regiruler

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,298
United States
Yugi isn't a great example though because the F/L list is essentially a soft rotation. Staple cards remain legal but there are always one or two key cards in archetypes that get hit that essentially remove them from the metagame.

The MTG comparison is highlighting one important thing that people ware ignoring though; the Pokemon meta does get shaken up every new Gen even with the National Dex in, because there format tends to only allow Pokemon that are bred/caught in the new region or who appear in the regional dex which is essentially the same thing as not including them competitively.
Yugioh is rotated mostly by power creep. Most archetypes affected by the list get a lot, if not all, of their stuff back eventually/unfortunately.
 

Deleted member 18857

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,083
There is trilogy called total war warhammer that where each content you buy you can use it in the following game.
Or most of the PDS games that are developed for years adding content above each game. CK2 lasted 7 years.
XCOM 2 also brings almost everything the predecessor has and heavily builds above it.

I'm sorry but there are companies that do bring content from each version, unfortunately i guess people here don't hear about them because they are mostly PC games
Pokémon has over a thousand of different 3D models with god knows how many animations tied to them, most of them totally irrelevant to competitive play.
Total War and Xcom are so different in term of gameplay, number of assets and age of the series the comparison doesn't make any sense.
 

Deleted member 6230

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,118
idk as a competitive pokemon player, I'm kinda excited to see what the meta is going to look like with limited pokemon.
 
Nov 23, 2017
4,302
As someone who plays on Showdown primarily, I fuckin' hate most of the pokemon like the genies, heatran/groudon, magearna, some UBs that are broken as fuck and Tapu's that were cut, so it's honestly whatever if they had a standard list. Smogon already does tiers.
 

Busaiku

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,513
Alright I understand it now. Yeah, as I said earlier, the fact that we're creating a metagame with SwSh as a reference will just mean that we have less pokémon to choose from.

Would it be cool to have more options? Yeah, I agree with that. But I'll be honest, most VGC players are already tired of adding Amoonguss, Incineroar, Landorus-T... to their teams.
Now every single team will have Weezing, and probably another few staples instead.
 

Deleted member 6230

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,118
Now every single team will have Weezing, and probably another few staples instead.
I think there's gonna be more team variety in the new format. Weather teams, particularly sand and rain, are going to be strong. Trick Room has a lot of potential. Terrain/Unburden is weaker without auto terrain and losing some unburden users but Max moves setting terrains is not to be overlooked. Not to mention new team synergies with Dynamax and Max moves cause wild field affects.

But that would still be regional dex only when the game releases regardless.

until it's not.

essentially I'm very comfortable with pokemon doing set rotation.
 

Busaiku

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,513
until it's not.

essentially I'm very comfortable with pokemon doing set rotation.
Before, Regional was only a subset of the available Pokémon, now it's all the Pokémon.
think there's gonna be more team variety in the new format. Weather teams, particularly sand and rain, are going to be strong. Trick Room has a lot of potential. Terrain/Unburden is weaker without auto terrain and losing some unburden users but Max moves setting terrains is not to be overlooked. Not to mention new team synergies with Dynamax and Max moves cause wild field affects.
Trick Room and Weather were everywhere in 7th gen.
7th gen's meta was super diverse.
 

Dolce

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,252
There is trilogy called total war warhammer that where each content you buy you can use it in the following game.
Or most of the PDS games that are developed for years adding content above each game. CK2 lasted 7 years.
XCOM 2 also brings almost everything the predecessor has and heavily builds above it.

I'm sorry but there are companies that do bring content from each version, unfortunately i guess people here don't hear about them because they are mostly PC games

Crusader Kings II has over 300 USD worth of DLC. You could buy one version of every Pokemon game in a 7 year span and spend much less than that.

Again, if you want Pokemon to be a living game I can understand that.
 

affeinvasion

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,953
I think it will be interesting to see if the competitive scene starts to use legacy titles for competitions just for the larger or different pool of pokemon available, similar to how Melee is still done competitively even though Smash Bros has had several new iterations since then.
 

Denryu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
860
Brazil
same. but there's going to be a legacy format on showdown. Idk if Im going to play in a format that has zmoves megas and dynamax tho
I wonder what they are gonna do with that, especially since we don't know how z-moves and megas interact with dynamax. That format feels like a hell of a shitshow if you need to have a mega, z-user, gigamax and tapu on your team all the time lol. Either that or dynamaxing your mega to sweep half the enemy team.
 

Busaiku

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,513
I'm not exactly saying it wasn't. Just that there will be more variety in 8th gen
I doubt it.
With the presence of Weezing, the stats leaked and the new items and everything, I see it being far more offense oriented than before.

Whimsicott is basically useless now.
 
Jun 23, 2019
6,446
Standard is atrocious now? Well excuse the fuck out of me. I haven't heard this sentiment at all since Throne of Eldraine dropped.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,381
I honestly don't think that's a good idea. That's way too frequently to get used to a set of new Pokemon and metagame. It's not 1:1 with a TCG.

In that a given card itself might be simple, with the complexity coming from its synergies with other cards and the deck. A given Pokemon, in comparison, still has those same aspects, but also adds a number of different movesets, each with their own EV spreads, ideal ability and ideal nature. Add on top of that whatever generational battle mechanic there is (ie. megas, dyna/gigantomax) and you then have possible form changes as well.

The current cadence of 2-3 years is fine

Magic currently drops 4 new sets a year for standard. That's a quarterly release. Each set stays in for 2 years.