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Pokémon Black and White: Used to be hated when it launched, but now it's beloved. What happened?
- Thread starter SalvaPot
- Start date
I was not super online in 2011, but for what it's worth, I always loved Black and White. I distinctly remember thinking that I was impressed with the story of the games compared to previous gens.
As for why they may have come to be loved, though...I mean, in some ways they were the last traditional Pokemon games, right? To the extent that they were the last to incorporate 2D graphics in a meaningful way, IMO. Gen 6 (at least in my mind) is when Game Freak really began in earnest to try transitioning the series to 3D...a transition they have arguably yet to master. So, in a sense, you can kind of read Black and White/Gen 5 as the last of the "classic" Pokemon games. That is something that can definitely breed nostalgia, especially for those fans who might not be fond of the directions more recent gens have taken.
As for why they may have come to be loved, though...I mean, in some ways they were the last traditional Pokemon games, right? To the extent that they were the last to incorporate 2D graphics in a meaningful way, IMO. Gen 6 (at least in my mind) is when Game Freak really began in earnest to try transitioning the series to 3D...a transition they have arguably yet to master. So, in a sense, you can kind of read Black and White/Gen 5 as the last of the "classic" Pokemon games. That is something that can definitely breed nostalgia, especially for those fans who might not be fond of the directions more recent gens have taken.
I don't recall Gen 5 as a whole getting a ton of hate, at launch or later. Certain aspects of it (read: Garbodor and Vanilluxe) were mocked, sure, and maybe some people weren't too big on the "old pokémon only after the first League win" thing. But the story in particular was incredibly well received. B2W2 was also an instant hit because of the bigger variety of new and old pokémon, the new gym leaders and the PWT. Even the movie side thing was a lot better than most people expected.
The first time I noticed people disliking the current gen was in Gen 6 with XY. It had gotten worse since, but then again... so have the games.
The first time I noticed people disliking the current gen was in Gen 6 with XY. It had gotten worse since, but then again... so have the games.
Other than the garbage/ice cream Pokemon complaints, I don't recall much hate at all.
As far as Gen 4 hate goes, I think it's genuinely people forgetting about how weak Diamond and Pearl were. Platinum was fantastic and is potentially the best in the series and while I personally think HGSS are poor remakes most people seem to really like them.
As far as Gen 4 hate goes, I think it's genuinely people forgetting about how weak Diamond and Pearl were. Platinum was fantastic and is potentially the best in the series and while I personally think HGSS are poor remakes most people seem to really like them.
I only remember there being hate from genwunners since BW1 didn't let you catch any of the Pokemon prior to that gen during its campaign. But then genwunners will have that complaint about every game that's not Red/Blue/Yellow.
I remember a good amount of ire was because it launched so close to the 3ds, and so it didn't have the graphical/gameplay overhaul people were excited a 3ds entry would bring.
BW/BW2 as games are amazing, but in saying that Gen 5 has personally some of the most ugliest pokemon, but also some of the best designs its always been a mixed bag for me in terms of the monsters.
the bad:
the good:
the best:
Durant is the most badass they could make an ant Pokemon look, and I really appreciate that. Munna is cute.
I don't personally recall the vitriol against Gen 5 at the time of their release, but this is mostly because I only knew two people at the time who were still remotely interested in Pokémon. All three of us loved BW and speak well of them still, but Pokémon was very much not a hot topic among high-school/college-age folks in 2010/2011.
As for its current resurgence as the fan-favorite generation, I think it's a matter of it being the last iterative generation, where the focus was honing the material of previous generations, rather than some new technological leap. It was still based on a simple and relatively cheap 2.5D gridded overworld, as opposed to full 3D environments; sprites were recycled in great part from Gen 4 rather than needing to model or remodel everything; there was no gimmick in the battle system to soak up development time. All those resources went to building directly within the core formula instead. As a result, it's extremely polished in a way that's easy to appreciate, though it's admittedly not a massive advancement from Gen 4 in any single area.
As for its current resurgence as the fan-favorite generation, I think it's a matter of it being the last iterative generation, where the focus was honing the material of previous generations, rather than some new technological leap. It was still based on a simple and relatively cheap 2.5D gridded overworld, as opposed to full 3D environments; sprites were recycled in great part from Gen 4 rather than needing to model or remodel everything; there was no gimmick in the battle system to soak up development time. All those resources went to building directly within the core formula instead. As a result, it's extremely polished in a way that's easy to appreciate, though it's admittedly not a massive advancement from Gen 4 in any single area.
Although importing Pokémon from prior generations was a postgame feature in BW, you absolutely could import your older Pokémon and do a playthrough with them in the exact same way as it had been done in Gen 4, and as would be done in the next two generations as well.
I think it was only ever mocked for certain Pokemon designs like Garbodor, and some people didn't like Black/White locking you to new Pokemon only for the main game.
I think people look back at them with a particular fondness now because of them being unusually story focused by Pokemon standards, especially given the lackluster plots of later entries like X/Y and Sword/Shield. Essentially, Black/White tried something new, and people like that, at least in retrospect.
I think people look back at them with a particular fondness now because of them being unusually story focused by Pokemon standards, especially given the lackluster plots of later entries like X/Y and Sword/Shield. Essentially, Black/White tried something new, and people like that, at least in retrospect.
I love these games. The idea of "every Pokemon is new" was so refreshing, not to mention the wonderful music, the fully animated sprites, and the evolution of pixel art graphics in 3D environments (which Platinum delve into with the Distortion World). Generation 5 had such a great aesthetic IMO. Feel like a lot of love went into these games (and the sequels).
Couldn't be meImagine hating this king
It really was the peak. Gen 7 is better than 6 but the overall trend is down from 5.
The only thing poor about HGSS is the fact that they remade GSC, warts and all. It's still a decent example on Pokemon remakes compared to ORAS and FRLGR
I was a weird one who grew up on gen 1 and 2, but stopped playing after that. I was in college and picked up Pokémon Black because I only had my DS with me at school. The game was always great to me, I loved how you could only catch Gen 5 Pokémon. I loved the storyline with N and how he wasn't like Team Rocket. It also helped that the Gen 5 Pokémon designs are awesome. They are only behind 1 and 2 for me.
I think these games were always great, but people are adverse to new entries in beloved franchises. Taking a break made it new for me. I think this is why the Zelda/Mario/Pokémon cycle exists.
I think these games were always great, but people are adverse to new entries in beloved franchises. Taking a break made it new for me. I think this is why the Zelda/Mario/Pokémon cycle exists.
Loved them day 1. On repeat playthroughs the flaws become a bit more evident, like the 156 Pokemon selection. Very cool for the first playthrough, but limits team variety by quite a bit when there isn't access to any older mons until post game (outside of trading with another copy). Still easily my favorite gen though. Helps that newer games have really boosted my opinions of the older games.
A mix of them being great and ambitious games to begin with and the followups being basura. That being said, I was never a fan of the fully animated sprites, made battles too blurry for my eyes.
You are not wrong and I am not biased!Best designs across the gens don't @ me
I think it's part conflating pre-release worries to what people's thoughts on the actual games themselves were, part looking back after where the franchise has gone since.
Black/White came out in Japan (and a few other parts of Asia) six months before the rest of the world, so western fans had plenty of time to take in all the new Pokemon designs, and a lot of focus went onto some of the.. less good ones. I will say that, personally, since more Gen V monsters have grown on me, but that's generally true with monsters from most generations.
I felt like most people enjoyed the games themselves. I liked the campaign quite a bit, and while Unova's layout and progression wasn't bad at all, the region was held back by it's... "America Theme Park" feeling. On one hand, it's a very diverse region, but on the other, being the first games not specifically based on a Japanese landmass, it was all over the place.
Only new Pokemon was refreshing, especially after too many years regional pokedexes having precious slots occupied by the same damn pokemon every time. But there were still issues with the new monsters being pretty hit and miss, and a 150 limit on the regional pokedex greatly limiting variety, even if all the pokemon were "new".
And then, of course, since then the campaign aspect of the franchise has gone way downhill so you're definitely getting people either nostalgic or with a greater appreciation of the more traditional campaigns.
Black/White came out in Japan (and a few other parts of Asia) six months before the rest of the world, so western fans had plenty of time to take in all the new Pokemon designs, and a lot of focus went onto some of the.. less good ones. I will say that, personally, since more Gen V monsters have grown on me, but that's generally true with monsters from most generations.
I felt like most people enjoyed the games themselves. I liked the campaign quite a bit, and while Unova's layout and progression wasn't bad at all, the region was held back by it's... "America Theme Park" feeling. On one hand, it's a very diverse region, but on the other, being the first games not specifically based on a Japanese landmass, it was all over the place.
Only new Pokemon was refreshing, especially after too many years regional pokedexes having precious slots occupied by the same damn pokemon every time. But there were still issues with the new monsters being pretty hit and miss, and a 150 limit on the regional pokedex greatly limiting variety, even if all the pokemon were "new".
And then, of course, since then the campaign aspect of the franchise has gone way downhill so you're definitely getting people either nostalgic or with a greater appreciation of the more traditional campaigns.
Honestly the biggest complaint I can think of for X and Y is that they're too easy.
The irony being that all Pokemon games are easy, even "legendarily hard" encounters like Whitney in Gold and Silver and Cynthia in Diamond and Pearl can be overcome with basic stratagem or power-leveling.
Well that and they're French. And Americans hate the French for some reason.
They know what they did.
Title of the thread can literally be applied to at least half of the game threads I see on the forum Lol. Every time I'm scratching my head. I even asked in one of the threads and got a pretty good response along the lines of, the thread is pretty much only attracting the fans of the game to begin with so of course the inside of the thread is filled with people who enjoyed it.
But it's definitely interesting seeing so many games that came out and were received with a 'eh', or worse, seemingly be classics here, Haha. It's great though, why not.
But it's definitely interesting seeing so many games that came out and were received with a 'eh', or worse, seemingly be classics here, Haha. It's great though, why not.
Gen 5 has gotten a lot of respect recently as many believe that it was the last game in the series that didn't have all the crippling flaws that ruined Gens 6-8.
The same could be said of X/Y, albeit to a lesser extent (at least it didn't waste hours of our time with terrible writing, at least it had some exploration, at least it had good online, etc.)
The same could be said of X/Y, albeit to a lesser extent (at least it didn't waste hours of our time with terrible writing, at least it had some exploration, at least it had good online, etc.)
I loved Gen 5 from the moment it came out. Most of the hate was the typical "new pokemon design suck" which is the same thing that every new gen catches
Had a younger cousin who loved BW, and considers it his fav, and his older brother who aged out and basically stopped playing handheld games period. Both absolutely adored the games starting from Ruby.
People hated on them for superficial reasons and didn't realise how good they had it. I feel like there was an especially strong genwunner meme movement at the time that freaked out over the new designs and how bad they were compared to the 'good ol days'
I always thought the first black and white was a fresh of breath air, with the new pokemon only in the region. I went into the game blind too, so it was truly amazing. Black 2/White 2 were incredible sequels as well.
The story was also easily the best in Pokemon franchise.
The only people that hated it were the ones pissed about vanniluxe and garbador. Instead I was focused on Galvantula(one of my favorites) and Golurk
The story was also easily the best in Pokemon franchise.
The only people that hated it were the ones pissed about vanniluxe and garbador. Instead I was focused on Galvantula(one of my favorites) and Golurk
GenV did a lot of things wrong. Very wrong. Its presentation was a mess, and some of the new Pokemon designs were dreadful - looking at you, Sawk and Throh. And, well, yeah, the entire experience felt rather cobbled together and rushed.
However.
GenV also did a lot of things right - extremely right. It continued on trying to pull off serious storytelling, and did it better than GenIV did - I should preface this by saying that IV and II are by far my favorite generations. The gameplay was optimised, and quite enjoyable.
And it didn't feel like it was talking down at you - certainly not compared with the following generations.
That's the weird crux of the issue, as others have pointed out - whilst GenV had its issues, it manages to be better than every other successive generation in the minds of a lot of people.
We will see if GenVI and beyond can find themselves rehabilitated. Frankly, I can't see how XY specifically can be rehabilitated - that pair of games fell with such an incredible disappointing thud, that I'm not even sure what can redeem them aside from a few catchy designs.
GenVI ditched the ambition that made GenV amazing. And every following game has felt weirdly constrained and hollow since then.
I hated GenV when it came out. But it's grown on me since.
However.
GenV also did a lot of things right - extremely right. It continued on trying to pull off serious storytelling, and did it better than GenIV did - I should preface this by saying that IV and II are by far my favorite generations. The gameplay was optimised, and quite enjoyable.
And it didn't feel like it was talking down at you - certainly not compared with the following generations.
That's the weird crux of the issue, as others have pointed out - whilst GenV had its issues, it manages to be better than every other successive generation in the minds of a lot of people.
We will see if GenVI and beyond can find themselves rehabilitated. Frankly, I can't see how XY specifically can be rehabilitated - that pair of games fell with such an incredible disappointing thud, that I'm not even sure what can redeem them aside from a few catchy designs.
GenVI ditched the ambition that made GenV amazing. And every following game has felt weirdly constrained and hollow since then.
I hated GenV when it came out. But it's grown on me since.
The only "hate" that I remember Gen 5 getting was when Black and White 2 were announced for the DS and came out a year and a half into the 3DS's life cycle. At that point 3DS owners were starving for games.
I finally got around to beating White a couple years ago and loved it. I want to try B2 or W2 but I need those prices to drop first
I finally got around to beating White a couple years ago and loved it. I want to try B2 or W2 but I need those prices to drop first
I did not know people hated BW, I thought people just hated how the starters turned out. I thought a handful of Pokemon designs sucked but there were quite a bit I liked.
I really only remember the designs not being liked, and that it was Gen 5 pokemon only until postgame. Which caused people to lash out against specific Gen 5 designs like Garbodor and Vanilluxe (They should be thankful they could still transfer their old ones in to be honest considering where we are now with Sw/Sh)
Those same people would complain about their being a rubbish bag and an ice cream pokemon, and then go on to praise Magnemite and Geodude. Pot meet's Kettle I suppose.
I suppose Pokemon Cycle is partially to due with it is as well. Those that grew up with Gen 5 are in the primary online demographic so they talk about it more.
I do wonder if it happens to Gen 6, some are saying they are seeing it as well now, I don't really see it still. There's like 3 factors to like about X/Y that are specifically X/Y, It's Online (Which is somehow probably the best iteration in the series, what the heck), The Megas (Which are controversial, but people like them and are more vocal about it now that they got removed), and the anime season (Can't blame them, it's a lot better than Best Wishes). I haven't seen anyone go out of there way to praise the characters or the story of X/Y, and ORAS reminds controversial, soundtracks as well feel a lot weaker that gen as well. I dunno what else people like for X and Y specifically. Variety of pokemon as well? I see that mentioned time to time. Trainer Customisation and Amie are popular as well and have remained staples.
X and Y also have the move to 3D Burden which has always been seen as a turning point (Some do see all the changes to 3D as good, but others see it as when the games started to struggle as well), it's also the gen that started going hard on Gen One Pandering which hasn't really left the series since which has made it controversial too. So I dunno about X and Y becoming beloved. It may happen, but I would also say it's going to see a lot more hate than other gens as well.
Wanna know how I know that? Well, people say the Zelda Cycle is a thing, but I'm looking at that Skyward Sword HD thread and there is a hecka load of people in there that hate that game. Zelda Cycle did not apply to Skyward Sword, that's for sure.
Those same people would complain about their being a rubbish bag and an ice cream pokemon, and then go on to praise Magnemite and Geodude. Pot meet's Kettle I suppose.
I suppose Pokemon Cycle is partially to due with it is as well. Those that grew up with Gen 5 are in the primary online demographic so they talk about it more.
I do wonder if it happens to Gen 6, some are saying they are seeing it as well now, I don't really see it still. There's like 3 factors to like about X/Y that are specifically X/Y, It's Online (Which is somehow probably the best iteration in the series, what the heck), The Megas (Which are controversial, but people like them and are more vocal about it now that they got removed), and the anime season (Can't blame them, it's a lot better than Best Wishes). I haven't seen anyone go out of there way to praise the characters or the story of X/Y, and ORAS reminds controversial, soundtracks as well feel a lot weaker that gen as well. I dunno what else people like for X and Y specifically. Variety of pokemon as well? I see that mentioned time to time. Trainer Customisation and Amie are popular as well and have remained staples.
X and Y also have the move to 3D Burden which has always been seen as a turning point (Some do see all the changes to 3D as good, but others see it as when the games started to struggle as well), it's also the gen that started going hard on Gen One Pandering which hasn't really left the series since which has made it controversial too. So I dunno about X and Y becoming beloved. It may happen, but I would also say it's going to see a lot more hate than other gens as well.
Wanna know how I know that? Well, people say the Zelda Cycle is a thing, but I'm looking at that Skyward Sword HD thread and there is a hecka load of people in there that hate that game. Zelda Cycle did not apply to Skyward Sword, that's for sure.
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Since you enjoy Crystal so much I've got a recommendation for you- Pokemon! Let's Watch Paint Dry
The only hate I remember was from the babies that were upset it was a brand new 151 Pokemon. Those dorks still bring up Garbodor and Vanilluxe like they aren't actually fantastic designs. BW are incredibly good Pokemon games and I for one loved them since day 1. Gen 5 is the best Gen with only Gen 4 being a very close second.
Black and White were the first entries I skipped due to word of mouth and kind of fell off from the series since.
Yea only blowback I recall on GAF and the internet was about the forced new Pokémon. Some loved the idea of having new surprises and others wanted to catch Zubats in caves again or whatever. Positive JPN impressions changed minds and the US release was pretty positive, enough to convince me to buy a copy and I was not a Pokémon player. Ended up loving it back then.