PlayStation 5 uncovered: the Mark Cerny tech deep dive [Digital Foundry]

[Carn]

lol, that reads like fanfic stuff indeed. I mean, Sony not being aware the form factor 'needed to be changed'? Thats the angle?
Also, Cerny's mission with his time-to-triangle stuff is paramount to his concept of console development. Suddenly the PS5 is much harder to optimize for, altough Cerny claimed things have gotten even easier?

 

[Hey Please]

Ah fuck looks like Sony got caught with their pants down resting on their laurels and the devs have no fucking clue how to optimize for this, "Variable The Machine". Perhaps they ought to rename, "PS5" to "PS V". It functions as both the number as well as the shorthand for "Variable".

/S

Let me put it another way:

That post is, as far as I'm aware, not an accurate reflection of the current situation. It's based on perhaps a kernel of truth (the system puts out a lot of heat and of course that is a challenging engineering problem, and consoles usually are finished just in time to launch) blown up into hyperbolic nonsense.

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Because it's operating at constant wattage (I am taking power, as mentioned by Ser Cerny, to mean wattage in this context), right? So technically, PS5 would require an incredibly robust, (rather unlike any of their previous efforts) cooling solution.

 

[Drencrom]

I love that rumors about Cerny lying about variable clocks, PS5 overheating like 360 RRoD, PS5 being delayed 6-12 months, devs having a hard time optimizing for the console etc is all being parroted by Microsoft Central, MS fans like Tom Warren, Brad Sams and rando fanboys that Schreier has to shut down all the time.

 

[androvsky]

Let me put it another way:

That post is, as far as I'm aware, not an accurate reflection of the current situation. It's based on perhaps a kernel of truth (the system puts out a lot of a heat and of course that is a challenging engineering problem) blown up into hyperbolic nonsense.

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I'm still interested in this, since Cerny said they had trouble hitting 3.0 GHz CPU and 2.0 GHz on a 36-CU GPU before they added the clock scaling, which sounds like notably less thermal load than what the XSX is dealing with. Sure, the XSX has a beefy cooler and giant fan, but MS is understandably quite concerned about keeping the system quiet.

But looking at the PS5 devkit photos, those things have gigantic heatsinks, easily double or triple what's in the XSX. If those devkits are running hot, either they don't have fans at all or they don't have the clock scaling implemented yet.

 

[Phellps]

Yeah, I'll take Schreier's word over someone from a platform-centric publication. Not to mention the former has a much more proven track record.

 

[lukeskymac]

A whole lot of FUD.

Cerny even mentioned a teardown video is coming, so they've already nailed down the cooling solution and form-factor.

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Nah man, every single thing the Chief System Architect says is just PR. Only a writer for WindowsCentral, the executive editor for WindowsCentral, and the founder of WinRumors know the real story behind Sony's console.

 

[Terbinator]

By the way, these are some of the tweets Schreier is linking:

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Isn't that bottom one outright wrong?

 

[Elios83]

I wonder why it's always Xbox insiders with close ties to Microsoft that hear about problems with PS5 :D
FUD at its finest.
Sony not showing the console because it overheats and now they need to make it look like the XSX to cool it properly and developers not kwnowing how to optimize because performance is not deterministic.
This is made up by people who don't even have an idea of how the system works, performance is always deterministic and if developers don't want to bother with optimization they can stick with a perfomance preset, just like clarified today by DF.
Also Cerny said they're proud of their cooling solution and we'll see in the system teardown. Definetly the words of a man that doesn't know how to cool down the system. We didn't know how the PS4 looked like until E3 2013.

How about stop derailing every thread with FUD from MS and their associates?

 

[Deleted member 24021]

I love that rumors about Cerny lying about variable clocks, PS5 overheating like 360 RRoD, PS5 being delayed 6-12 months, devs having a hard time optimizing for the console etc is all being parroted by Microsoft Central, MS fans like Tom Warren, Brad Sams and rando fanboys that Schreier has to shut down all the time.

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It's been that way for a long time. They prefer to keep Sony in their heads instead of playing their own box.

 

[Deleted member 61469]

Let me put it another way:

That post is, as far as I'm aware, not an accurate reflection of the current situation. It's based on perhaps a kernel of truth (the system puts out a lot of heat and of course that is a challenging engineering problem, and consoles usually are finished just in time to launch) blown up into hyperbolic nonsense.

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Interesting

 

[DukeBlueBall]

In 2013 there was a lot of smoke that Xb1 was facing esram yield issues and need to downclock. Turned out to be mostly bunk.

Just a remind not all info, positive or negative, from unverified/verified sources are true.

 

[starblue]

I was going to report it for removal and clean up but alas, this fire has run rampant.

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Im sorry. I already deleted the post, my intention was just ask about that in a tech deep thread. I think my surprise about that tweet made me just post without thinking clearly. My bad, im sorry guys :(

 

[Deleted member 50658]

So fucking annoying that the same people sporting Halo avatars ALWAYS want to drag console warrior bullshit into PS5 threads with tweets or comments from anonymous no namers and even when Jason and Matt debunk it still keep up their concern trolling.

 

[Decarb]

Please don't tell me the FUD is starting again. Is a certain group of people really that insecure?

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The same four or five avatars I see in every PS5 thread stirring shit up despite being banned for doing the same in the past. The same fucking Halo avatars too. Sometimes I feel like GAF's way of heavy handed modding was the best approach.

 

[jroc74]

it seems that everytime there is new PS5 info, this thread get worse. It's actually impresive.

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In these PS5 threads the "concerns" always come from the same people. I find it funny and it gives me a little tenderness at the same time.
I'm very excited for what is to come!

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Ignore list approaching max levels.

That said, the more gloom and doom I read from "insiders" (lol) the more excited for PS5 I become.

If you have to do this much fear-mongering, concern trolling and flat-out lying, you've clearly got something to be afraid of.

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Man, this thread stinks... seriously team green, you got your own threads to lick your plastic box, can't we lick ours in peace. :)

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/dead

Amazing, isn't it?

 

[Patent]

So fucking annoying that the same people sporting Halo avatars ALWAYS want to drag console warrior bullshit into PS5 threads with tweets or comments from anonymous no namers and even when Jason and Matt debunk it still keep up their concern trolling.

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An accurate statement

 

[asmith906]

Looking at the replies, I'm guessing Jez Corben from Windows Central is the other journalist you were referring to?

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literally for all this to be true it would require a massive redesign of the PS5. It sounds like BS to me. The whole reason of the set power budget is to control heat.

 

[AllBizness]

The first multiplatform comparison threads after launch will be glorious. Going to be better then going to the cinema, my popcorn will be ready : )

 

[sncvsrtoip]

Let me put it another way:

That post is, as far as I'm aware, not an accurate reflection of the current situation. It's based on perhaps a kernel of truth (the system puts out a lot of heat and of course that is a challenging engineering problem, and consoles usually are finished just in time to launch) blown up into hyperbolic nonsense.

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thx for clarification, on the other hand that post sound like total bs ;)

 

[platocplx]

I love that rumors about Cerny lying about variable clocks, PS5 overheating like 360 RRoD, PS5 being delayed 6-12 months, devs having a hard time optimizing for the console etc is all being parroted by Microsoft Central, MS fans like Tom Warren, Brad Sams and rando fanboys that Schreier has to shut down all the time.

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yeah its laughable at this point.

 

[foamdino]

The SSD. It's not the commonly derided (usually rightfully) "secret sauce". It's fucking fast, much faster than the one in the SX (which, to be clear, is no slouch either), and it will, for games that are designed to take advantage of it, open the door to better game design and new gameplay possibilities. The SSD in the SX will absolutely also accomplish this, but just not to the same extent.

I'm really excited to see this in action in Sony's first party games.

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This makes me very excited to see what the devs are going to do with this SSD - and it's much more fun talking about these possibilities than going over the latest unsubstantiated rumour of PS5 problems (from Microsoft focused writers)

 

[Imitation Of Life]

Would be nice to ble able to read a PS5 thread without a bunch of bullshit every other page.

 

[Funky_Monkey]

The first multiplatform comparison threads after launch will be glorious. Going to be better then going to the cinema, my popcorn will be ready : )

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It's when you get more enjoyment reading the threads than actually playing the consoles, that you know you've got a problem. :)

 

[Vinx]

Every Playstation 5 thread

 

[More Butter]

Ruined ? Im sorry to hear that and Im going to delete my post, but I don't know where to post this, it deserves a new thread ?

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I'm just saying it's gonna stir some stuff up. Ruined is hyperbolic..

 

[dgrdsv]

I would not make that same assumption as it is a 40% larger GPU with static clocks.

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So? Navi 14's peak clocks are 1845 MHz while Navi 10's are 1905.
Turing's boost clocks are about 200 MHz apart between the highest and lowest specced cards with the biggest TU102 and TU104 actually being higher in clocks than any of the TU11x.
Clocks are mostly limited by the power consumption you're aiming for, and the difference between PS5 and XSX GPU clocks seems unusually big for devices which are targeting more or less the same power envelope.
I won't be surprised for example if PS5 will end up being more power hungry than XSX due to its GPU clock.

 

[thebigmanjosh]

By the way, these are some of the tweets Schreier is linking:

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Just in case anyone had any doubt about this persons credibility, Playstation's digital revenue (Games/Network Services/PS+/PSNow) in FY18 doubled Microsoft's entire gaming divison (Xbox hardware, software, and services).

PS4 has been printing money for Sony, publishers, and developers. The only individuals I could see being unhappy are indie devs who don't have their games front and center on the store.

 

[Deleted member 23046]

I hope Paul Thurrott won't be dragged down by these those dorks, he's the proof that you can be specialised and keep your integrity.

 

[•79•]

Nevermind.

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"'job done"

 

[Jroc]

Is that even the case now?

At 4:35 in the video - "More than one developer has told us they are running the CPU throttled back, allowing for excess power to pour into the GPU to ensure a consistently locked 2.23 GHz".

Does the set power envelope restrict both the CPU and GPU from running at max clocks concurrently?

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Certain computing operations use more power (watts) than others.

The PS5 CPU and GPU can allegedly run at max speed simultaneously if they're under a low work load and/or doing "cheap" computations. These are totally made up numbers, but a CPU at 3.5Ghz doing a bunch of "cheap" addition operations might draw 50W of power and run at 60C, whereas that same CPU at 3.5Ghz doing a bunch of "expensive" AVX operations might draw 120W of power and throttle down due to overheating. For comparison, Microsoft says that the Series X will always run at its advertised speeds regardless of what your making the machine do. It was designed around the worst case scenario.

Cerny predicts that "most" games will be programmed in such a way that will let the PS5 run at peak performance. Then again, I wouldn't expect him to ever come out and say "yeah, the clocks will bottom out if you need to do X and Y at the same time." It's hard to predict development trends over a 7+ year console lifecycle. Microsoft intended the 360's super fast EDRAM to be used for anti-aliasing, but by the end of the generation most games had to use it for other things.

 

[FacelessSamurai]

You do realise PS5 has an accelerator engine inside the GPU called the Geometry Engine which, according to a dev, VRS 'doesn't hold a candle to'? It seems this is potentially much more performant than VRS which is only a general RDNA2 feature.

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I somehow doubt whatever that "dev" is alluding to, especially since they have nothing to prove whatever it is they are Claiming. VRS has shown what it can do already on PC and is also used on Nvidia GPUs for example, so is a more standardized feature across vendors.

 

[HeWhoWalks]

So fucking annoying that the same people sporting Halo avatars ALWAYS want to drag console warrior bullshit into PS5 threads with tweets or comments from anonymous no namers and even when Jason and Matt debunk it still keep up their concern trolling.

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Yes, very true.

 

[Melchiah]

Ignore list approaching max levels.

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Same here.

That said, the more gloom and doom I read from "insiders" (lol) the more excited for PS5 I become.

If you have to do this much fear-mongering, concern trolling and flat-out lying, you've clearly got something to be afraid of.

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That seems to be the gist of it.


EDIT:

Man, this thread stinks... seriously team green, you got your own threads to lick your plastic box, can't we lick ours in peace. :)

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Yep. Thread-shitting should be a bannable offense. How childish do you have to be to go shit on a thread about a system (or games) you aren't even considering to get?

 

[Searsy82]

Reading about technology/video games is becoming increasingly exhausting. Maybe Im just getting too old.

 

[Hey Please]

You do realise PS5 has an accelerator engine inside the GPU called the Geometry Engine which, according to a dev, VRS 'doesn't hold a candle to'? It seems this is potentially much more performant than VRS which is only a general RDNA2 feature.

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From what I have been told, XSX also has access to it as part of the DX12 package is named, Mesh Shader. Honestly, I hope there is VRS as part of RDNA2. I understand Sony's desire to go with 36CU but I hope that they did not endure some sort of feature disparity.

Every Playstation 5 thread

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Agreed.

 

[platocplx]

lol, that reads like fanfic stuff indeed. I mean, Sony not being aware the form factor 'needed to be changed'? Thats the angle?
Also, Cerny's mission with his time-to-triangle stuff is paramount to his concept of console development. Suddenly the PS5 is much harder to optimize for, altough Cerny claimed things have gotten even easier?

Click to shrink...

its absolutely annoying that people are taking things like that as real without verifying who the person even is. anyone can sound convincing for or against damn near everything. its so irresponsible if someone is some kinda journalist to just piggy back off any damn rumor in a comment section.

 

[tusharngf]

Looking at the replies, I'm guessing Jez Corben from Windows Central is the other journalist you were referring to?

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From what I see Sony removed all bottleneck from the system.

 

[jroc74]

I hope Paul Thurrott won't be dragged down by these dorks, he's the proof that you can be specialised and keep your integrity.

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This so much.

I've been a long time reader of his stuff.

 

[Mr.Black]

I love that rumors about Cerny lying about variable clocks, PS5 overheating like 360 RRoD, PS5 being delayed 6-12 months, devs having a hard time optimizing for the console etc is all being parroted by Microsoft Central, MS fans like Tom Warren, Brad Sams and rando fanboys that Schreier has to shut down all the time.

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Sony has been living rent free in their heads for the past 7 years. Console wars are so sad, I'd think people have more important things to worry about at a time like this but.. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[rokkerkory]

Would be nice to ble able to read a PS5 thread without a bunch of bullshit every other page.

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Agreed but to be fair many xbox threads have same BS.

I can't wait until consoles are released so that we are busy playing instead of warring.

 

[starblue]

"'job done"

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Unnecessary reply. Can we just move on ?

 

[scabobbs]

Looking at the replies it seems the person who wrote that post is a console warrior who just set his Twitter account to private?

It's also very suspect that it's being signal boosted by Xbox guys. The whole post reads like fanfic.

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Sigh... why are people like this? What do any of these people have to gain??

 

[lukeskymac]

I hope Paul Thurrott won't be dragged down by these dorks, he's the proof that you can be specialised and keep your integrity.

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My dude, Paul Thurrott is the original "that dork". He didn't kill WinSuperSite just to replace it with thurrott.com for nothing.

 

[-Le Monde-]

edit

wrong thread. 😝

 

[Praedyth]

I don't think there's something messy with PS5 having variable frequencies. Cerny already explained that so much and it seems to me that this was their goal from the very start. PS4 Pro bumped the clocks and PS5 even more. I believe many people think this way because MS came first and shouted 12TF, so whatever Sony do must be reactionary. That's not the case, they just designed the console with a different vision.

The same way goes the people that think PS5 will be super hard to develop for or that the SSD and Tempest will be wasted. Cerny started his very own presentation talking about this, how PS5 have less "time to triangle" and how it balances evolution/revolution.

People need to calm down so they can see that many things look promising and both manufacturers have the best motivation to put the best piece of hardware they can: competition. Everyone benefits.

 

[Simuly]

lol, that reads like fanfic stuff indeed. I mean, Sony not being aware the form factor 'needed to be changed'? Thats the angle?
Also, Cerny's mission with his time-to-triangle stuff is paramount to his concept of console development. Suddenly the PS5 is much harder to optimize for, altough Cerny claimed things have gotten even easier?

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Amongst about 6 or 7 other things, what gives it away was the line that PS5 is 'impossible to optimize for' when the entire ethos of the design and approach is to make the console dev friendly and remove barriers for them to be able to freely create.

 

[Melchiah]

I wonder why it's always Xbox insiders with close ties to Microsoft that hear about problems with PS5 :D
FUD at its finest.
Sony not showing the console because it overheats and now they need to make it look like the XSX to cool it properly and developers not kwnowing how to optimize because performance is not deterministic.
This is made up by people who don't even have an idea of how the system works, performance is always deterministic and if developers don't want to bother with optimization they can stick with a perfomance preset, just like clarified today by DF.
Also Cerny said they're proud of their cooling solution and we'll see in the system teardown. Definetly the words of a man that doesn't know how to cool down the system. We didn't know how the PS4 looked like until E3 2013.

How about stop derailing every thread with FUD from MS and their associates?

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I love that rumors about Cerny lying about variable clocks, PS5 overheating like 360 RRoD, PS5 being delayed 6-12 months, devs having a hard time optimizing for the console etc is all being parroted by Microsoft Central, MS fans like Tom Warren, Brad Sams and rando fanboys that Schreier has to shut down all the time.

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Well, they have a long history with it.

Fear, uncertainty, and doubt - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[•79•]

Unnecessary reply. Can we just move on ?

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I have very few interests on the gaming side of the site but PS5 is one of them. Every PS5 thread descends into garbage and you completely derailed this one.

 

[Deleted member 23046]

My dude, Paul Thurrott is the original "that dork". He didn't kill WinSuperSite just to replace it with thurrott.com for nothing.

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Mwhahah I didn't know that.
So he's also proving there's a hope for them and for my use of the third person plural pronom.

 

[Deleted member 1003]

I was going to report it for removal and clean up but alas, this fire has run rampant.

Anyways, even though these articles provide the audience with useful insights to console technology, it's clear that it requires a level of precision communication that all parties aren't equipped to do without becoming way too technical.

People are confusing concepts like frequencies vs workloads. What "Boost" mode means in the Sony context vs AMD vs Intel etc. Hell, AnandTech dedicated an entire article over the kerfuffle between Intel vs AMD turbo boost functionality and what they mean.

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Totally agree.