A baseline is a starting point of measurement. A baseline doesn't have to mean lowest point. For pro sports, for the most part the salary cap is the baseline. You start from there and subtract from it.
That's true. The issue is Brad Sams stating as fact just how low it can go, or the low point being where it spends most of its time.
You can say that presentation was aimed at developers, but it's clear from watching it that is not entirely true. What use would developers have in hearing about PS4 backwards compatibility?
The same can be said for other console camps and all competing consumer products.
This was the presentation they were planning to give at GDC. This wasn't an E3 kind of presentation aimed at their playerbase and the media. This was entirely aimed at the technical side of the industry, and if you claim otherwise you'er really really reaching. Even the single tweet they gave out for it was very much matter-of-fact. This wasn't a big event they were hyping up.
See, this is a simple yes or no thing. Either Mark Cerny was lying in an official presentation about the numbers that he provided, or he wasn't. I've seen a lot of people on this very forum use the exact phrase "He's doing his job as an employee of Sony". What does that mean exactly? That he can give false information about a product they're releasing and no one's gonna bat an eye? That Sony gave him the headsup to give out false numbers in an official presentation?
Yep - this was all planned and it isn't likely that Sony caught wind of 12TF XsX in December then decided to rebuild: apu, power delivery system, power management, clocking arrangements, memory speed, cooling, enclosure all to fit into a new power profile in the last 4 months.
Yup. Price will be key, as always.
Have...have you read this thread? There's a fair amount of people guzzling Sony's corporate koolaid.
Please tell us what exactly is Sony's "corporate koolaid".
First ray tracing had a new meaning, then natively had a new meaning...
The conversation is about people in the press not regular forum posters like us.
I'm not a super technical guy, but even I understand why Sony went with the system they did. They wanted to fix the number one complaint they had about the PS4 and PS4 Pro - noise levels. And since they were sticking with 36cu for BC, they knew they also had to clock high and they designed the entire power management/cooling system of the console around that. This is a compromise. That's what consoles are. In ideal conditions, the console will spend most of it's time at the clock frequencies given by Cerny, and will downclock when needed. He gave us the numbers ("a couple percent" might indeed mean 3% - and I really don't think people should have such an enotional attachment to tf numbers).
Here let me use a visual aid to explain it. Below are videos of Modern warfare on PS4 Pro from two different people both overheating with crazy fan noise, from the menu screen.
That's some real reach you got there. You think the numbers given by Sony were just Cerny making a prediction and not the result of hundreds of millions in RnD and years of testing the hardware? You're implying that what Brad stated in the article is just as valid as Sony's numbers because Brad might have talked with developers and maybe reached his own conclusion.
The BC that is not supposed to require any work from developers? Why would it be important that devs hear about this?
I don't believe Cerny was lying, no. I do believe he was explaining things in the most positive way possible. Also, when you ask about him giving false numbers, what possible way would anyone ever have of verifying anything he said?
Thank You. You summed that up in far fewer words then I could.
All CPU and GPU use less or more power based on what they are being asked to do. This is not a new and special feature of the PS5.Here let me use a visual aid to explain it. Below are videos of Modern warfare on PS4 Pro from two different people both overheating with crazy fan noise, from the menu screen.
This is the kind of worst case scenario that Cerny alludes to. It is not "bad code" per say. But i can guess just from looking at that scene and say that the overabundance of alpha particles is what's causing the PS4 Pro GPU to overheat.
Is the GPU doing 4.2TF worth of calculations in this scene? No, there aren't very many polygons being rendered, only one character in the scene, no AI elements, and the lighting is not particularly out of this world, but yet the fan is making a lot of noise. This is simply because the GPU is saturated and drawing a lot of power even though this scene is relatively simple looking. The more power PS4 pro draws, the more heat it produces and then the fan kicks in hard to bring down the temperature.
PS4 Pro has a fixed clock 2.1GHz CPU and 911MHz GPU. Do you need the PS4 Pro to be running at that frequency in that menu? Probably not but It is just going to stay at those clocks and keep on drawing more power as long as you are on that menu. If it gets to a point where the fan cannot keep it under a safe temperature, the fail safe system will cause it to thermal throttle and or shutdown.
On PS5, the cooling solution has been optimized for a known maximum power draw. The clock speed is capped but allowed to dynamically adjust on the fly. If PS5 were to render that same scene, the fan will not kick in that hard because both the CPU and GPU can down clock in order to maintain a predetermine level of power draw. That doesn't mean you can't push it hard enough for it to behave like the PS4 Pro but it is less likely and developers can optimize around that.
Sometimes you just have shake your head and laugh at the crazy stuff that people post 😂That's some real reach you got there. You think the numbers given by Sony were just Cerny making a prediction and not the result of hundreds of millions in RnD and years of testing the hardware? You're implying that what Brad stated in the article is just as valid as Sony's numbers because Brad might have talked with developers and maybe reached his own conclusion.
u-huh
That's some real reach you got there. You think the numbers given by Sony were just Cerny making a prediction and not the result of hundreds of millions in RnD and years of testing the hardware? You're implying that what Brad stated in the article is just as valid as Sony's numbers because Brad might have talked with developers and maybe reached his own conclusion.
u-huh
But it really is just AMD SmartShift.
Nothing really distinguishes PS5's approach from AMD SmartShift.
Yeah, I think some XBox supporters are worried that a ~17% TF advantage isn't enough.
Point to where i said it was a new and special feature in PS5.
SmartShift was explicitly mentioned in the video as one part of the solution. Is this another of Cerny's "lies"?
He referred to SmartShift as the ability to send unused power to the other components, instead of only downclocking one component and making the whole chip consume less power. But SmartShift also take care of the activity monitoring part, so is this anther of AMD's "lies"?
You talked about the Pro being loud and then directly pointed to the PS5 as having the solution. The Pro could be a very quiet console if it's cooling solution and fan were of a higher quality.
the whole part of the presentation where he talked about it was addressing the sound complaints related to certain games like God of War with the ps4 pro. if that wasn't enough to signal their intent to fix the issue I don't know what is.
at launch......not forever
Yes, and I really hope it's a quiet console. But he did make no explicit promises beyond saying they're aware that was something that bothered people.
In all of the excitement over the new consoles being unveiled and the horror over a global pandemic people must have forgotten that just last month it was being reported that there was a shortage of DRAM and NAND components that would drive up the prices of these consoles.
No i talked about how a simple scene such as modern warfare menu can make the PS4 pro fan spin very fast even though what is being rendered is not particularly taxing. And contrasted it with how a system designed like PS5 will not behave the same way. I never said being able to adjust power was a new and special feature of PS5. I said PS5 being able to adjust its clock dynamically unlike PS4 Pro will allow it to down clock in a similar situation to reduce the amount of power being drawn in the exact same scene thereby not needing the fan to spin faster to keep temperature under control.
For one thing, maybe Sony just wanted to give out more details about the BC simply because that was the core tenet around which the entire console was designed.
I think this is what people call a straw man argument. You think Cerny is being intentionally misleading about the PS5's capabilities because there's no way we can check it right now? I just don't want to go down the very obvious and childish sinkhole you just opened...since we have no way to verify it then obviously the Hellblade 2 demo (the only real next-gen game we've seen) could have been pre-rendered. Obviously MS said that it was inengine but how can we be sure? They could have just done it all in CGI and introduced the artifacting and slight imperfections we saw in the trailer to emulate what an in-engine demo might look like.
Ah, lol my bad then.
He said something along the line of "after the teardown people will be happy to see the [cooling] solution the engineering team came up with", so I guess there are some explicit promises.
The XB1X is a quiet console and it's more powerful than the PS4 Pro. Why? Because it has a better cooling solution. This is not about power draw.
Any sales pitch involves amplifying the positives and minimizing the negatives. I believe he's done a very good job of that. You can label that whatever you want, but I would not suggest lies were told, no. I'm not interested in going back and forth with you as it seems you are just wanting to argue.
I'm glad to hear that. I tuned out of that talk halfway through.
Because he's talking to people who have worked on PS4 games. Obviously.
Yes, he was selling a console. Do you really think he would say "boy, that cheap cooling and loud fan we put in the Pro sure do make a lot of noise, am I rite"?
That is not relevant to this discussion. This is about whether variable clocks are necessary to have a quiet console, and the XB1S and XB1X are clear examples that prove it's not true.
