There is a solid state drive in each of these consoles, and this is why I have often wondered even in the next gen speculation threads what the big issue is. A 2 second load time against 4 seconds is not the end of the world.
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
PlayStation 5 System Architecture Deep Dive |OT| Secret Agent Cerny
- Thread starter vestan
- Start date
- Status
Kind of missing the forest for the trees.
Its more than about load times.
Jesus dude.
There have been a ton of posts that have hinted on and theorized about what advantages such a fast SSD can bring besides just faster load times. Alot of these advantages will work regardless of whether or not the entire game has been developed around the SSD.
This whole "oh it will only load a few seconds faster and nothing else" narrative should be banable at this point.
Last edited:
Where is this advantage going to be apart from first party games? Third party developers still have to make games across PC where they will no doubt target the lowest common denominator. They won't go ham on this. Where we are likely to see better AI, physics and simulation is off the vastly better CPU and visuals off the improved GPU.
So yes, it will matter for the less than one percent of games that are pushed by first party developers, but outside that....it will apply to the banable offense.
Nope. Developers will leverage the lowest common denominator when it comes to SSD speed. I see people talking about how they may use faster speeds on one console to stream more different objects.........kind of misses the point of what a port is.
I wasn't thinking this involved working on builds of a game through a broadband infrastructure. Of course that would be very difficult. I was thinking that a business meeting between publisher and developer didn't entail that deep a dive.
Did you even read my post? Games don't need to be designed around the PS5's SSD for them to make use of it's advantages. Besides loading times there is stuff like asset streaming and stuff like pop in among other things that have been pointed out many times already.
Is the PS5's SSD going to make a bigger impact on first party games? Definitely.
Will it be mostly useless for third party games? No why would you even think that?
And saying that games in general will be stuck with the lowest common denominator which is somehow Pc's with HDD's is laughable. Alot of next-gen games will simply drop HDD support and will require PC users to have an SSD to install the game on.
You Can't play a DX12 game with a DX9 GPU just as you won't be able to play a next gen game that requires an SSD on a HDD.
It's not that hard dude.
This thread is now full on the loop:
(ignores everything discussed)
'but ssd is just good for load times!'
someone explains for the nth time that it affects level design
'but are you sure? i think it is not! series x SSD is good enough, 4 second load times is the same as 2 second!'
someone explains again why that couldn't be true
'yeah but that is only for first party titles bla bla bla'
repeat
for some reason a freaking console advantage being 'only used' by first party titles is something we should just ignore, because who cares about first party titles, right?
(ignores everything discussed)
'but ssd is just good for load times!'
someone explains for the nth time that it affects level design
'but are you sure? i think it is not! series x SSD is good enough, 4 second load times is the same as 2 second!'
someone explains again why that couldn't be true
'yeah but that is only for first party titles bla bla bla'
repeat
for some reason a freaking console advantage being 'only used' by first party titles is something we should just ignore, because who cares about first party titles, right?
I would say - use faster speeds to free up more working memory, depending on the streaming model the game uses.
Can a multiplat game benefit from more memory?
Of course, it's quite possible XSX's memory/io capacity already exceeds what a multiplat game will be able to saturate in terms of asset management. And the extent of this may vary with how a game streams data.
But it's also possible PS5's headroom will be exploitable in some multiplat games via scalings that are already baked into the game/engine relating to asset quality/data. How that could manifest? Maybe reduced temporal artifacts wrt asset streaming, maybe higher resolution assets, maybe higher draw distance where i/o or memory bound.
We'll have to wait and see, but in theory the possibility is there.
So your kinda saying that a game like, for example, Cyberpunk 2077 will perform exactly the same on PS5 and XSX? Even tho both consoles have their own strenghts?
I'm pretty sure PS5 price will be some unorthodox number instead of usual cases like x99$ . Just like their 825GB SSD solution given specs I expect something like 459$ or 469$ along with 3 month of PS Plus or maybe 6 months to get economy hot.
Developers never target "lowest common denominator". It literally never happens. What happens is that lower specs device get a gimped version but still playable though not optimal. They always target one with most people.
Developers dont target xbox one when developing games. They target PS4 . So you can bet easily games wont target and design around Xbox Lockhart. But due nature of Lockhart and similiar CPU/RAM etc it will be playable on Lockhart.
Also targetting 2.4 GB/s wont be much visible than 5GB/s , because both will look lightyears ahead of "current gen games". Yes some PS5 developer will use it to extend obviously. So you can pretty much expect games will target PS5 and looking a bit better / more FPS on some cases in XSX while less/optimal cases on XBox Lockhart.
Xbox currently doesn't have any marketshare over Sony to enforce developers to target for their weak system. It is not gonna happen.
I don't see it like that at all. If the the XsX had 32gb of RAM would you be saying that only first party exclusives would take advantage because they PS5 only has 16?
Of course. Third party games would be made for the lowest common denominator, you would almost always never see anything outside better frame rates or higher resolution visuals, but nothing when it comes to AI or world simulation. Case in point would be Cell, most third party developers never bothered trying to get the maximum out of it, and it was a great piece of tech.
They will target games that work under a certain PC spec because they have to make sales there. Everything else will scale. They will not make games around the best SSD's, which is the point I am making. I really do not see why people have a problem with what is a simple statement to understand.
PC is always afterthought for most developers so no. They will target their new rendering engines and game engines based on common system which 3 seems to have. A powerful Xen 2 CPU with 16 threads with 3.0 ghz+ , 16 GB VRAM&RAM combined memory and 2.GB+ speed.
PC minimum specs gonna be updated just like every gen.Nothing superficious or interesting , usual story.This is pretty much what happened with last gen.
That's like the worst example. While Cell was a great piece of tech it was notoriously hard to work with.
This a thesis but another data driven for realtime rendering for fluid simulation this time
https://fallenshard.github.io/fluid-style-transfer.html
Link on the thesis
Realtime rendering of data driven fluid simulation with transfer style
EDIT:
Physics Forests: Using Machine Learning for Real-time Fluid Simulation - ACM SIGGRAPH Blog
What makes machine learning and real-time graphics a winning combination? The team behind SIGGRAPH 2017's Physics Forests explains.
blog.siggraph.org
A demo on Nvidia GPU from 1060 and above
Last edited:
But are they?
In the bloodborne style example the flow of the game is very different, with less downtime in the action and a different look and feel to 'dying'.
For the Soul reaver style example instant shifting means new options for platforming and level design, not to mention greater complexity for the stages due to more memory and near instant loading of assets.
It's funny that people are downplaying load time improvements when we know from the past no load times was quite impressive when it came to a game's feel. The cart games of old used it as a major selling point versus Cd's while the gamecube showed it was also very impressive in the disc age.
You can also see the benefits in somethign like Monster Hunter World PC versus console. The rapid load times on the PC mean less downtime per hunt and when time is limited that means one can engage in more hunts for the limited time they have. For someone like me who maybe has an hour to 90 minutes every few days to play, giving me back several minutes of that time that is normally wasted staring at a loading screen is quite welcome.
It will also save faster. We should have no spinning don't turn of the console when this image appears, then wait for up to 20 seconds sometimes. You could also have persistent save states, no having to go into a menu to save this game it just saves any changed variables that it requires transparently in the background, then you load up instantly where you were. You should only have to deal with saves when you want multiple of them.
For more examples:
Final Fantasy XV and Days Gone with "open worlds" split into chunks separated by big rocks, forcing you to use tunnels.
Horizon with no flying mounts.
God of War with (artfully done, admittedly) loading areas for fast travel and realm switching).
Not to mention all the many games with levels that don't initially seem restricted, but then you wonder how the devs might have designed the game entirely differently with an SSD.
I wish I had Chris's avatar. Transistor burned me harder than this pizza.
Was this shared yet? Dolby posted a FAQ regarding Sony's 3D audio announcements.
developer.dolby.com
Spatial Audio and the PS5
Do you have questions about Dolby Atmos for console and PC games? Learn more on Dolby Developer.
developer.dolby.com
AMD Ryzen 9 4900HS performs better than the Ryzen 7 3700X and even the mighty Ryzen 9 3950X in startling UserBenchmark test
Benchmarks for the AMD Ryzen 9 4900HS APU have started popping up and the latest one is quite a surprise. According to the results recorded on UserBenchmark, the Renoir chip outpaced both the Ryzen 7 3700X and even the 16-core Ryzen 9 3950X. The Ryzen 4000 APU was tested in an Asus ROG Zephyrus...
www.notebookcheck.net
I think this is the CPU of PS5 and Xbox Series X?
Was this shared yet? Dolby posted a FAQ regarding Sony's 3D audio announcements.
Spatial Audio and the PS5
Do you have questions about Dolby Atmos for console and PC games? Learn more on Dolby Developer.
Yes it was posted before. It has some odd statements like would we really be overwhelmed by 100s of sound objects when it rains in games when that doesnt happen to us in real life? Also I dont know if it is capable of more then 32 sound objects or not but you are limited by the atmos speaker/headphones you own. Some only allow for 15 objects for example, with tempest it makes no difference what headset you own.
Really, we could do a whole thread on this. I'd actually be very interested to see a console with the power of a base PS4, but with an SSD, and how that would change things. Maybe that'll be the Switch 2.
N7P doing work! (But really though, this doesn't make sense. It has a smaller L3 and is going to be more frequency limited. Did they make some stealth changes?)AMD Ryzen 9 4900HS performs better than the Ryzen 7 3700X and even the mighty Ryzen 9 3950X in startling UserBenchmark test
Benchmarks for the AMD Ryzen 9 4900HS APU have started popping up and the latest one is quite a surprise. According to the results recorded on UserBenchmark, the Renoir chip outpaced both the Ryzen 7 3700X and even the 16-core Ryzen 9 3950X. The Ryzen 4000 APU was tested in an Asus ROG Zephyrus...
I think this is the CPU of PS5 and Xbox Series X?
They probably make some changes, there is many performance improvement within AMD between this and the vega card into an APU having a huge improvement of performance or RDNA 2 GPU. Perfomance and performance per watts seems to evolve a lot.
AMD Ryzen 9 4900HS performs better than the Ryzen 7 3700X and even the mighty Ryzen 9 3950X in startling UserBenchmark test
Benchmarks for the AMD Ryzen 9 4900HS APU have started popping up and the latest one is quite a surprise. According to the results recorded on UserBenchmark, the Renoir chip outpaced both the Ryzen 7 3700X and even the 16-core Ryzen 9 3950X. The Ryzen 4000 APU was tested in an Asus ROG Zephyrus...
I think this is the CPU of PS5 and Xbox Series X?
Nice find. On PS5 the core clock could be similar to it since the power envelope seems similar. We don't exactly know the L3 # of both so it is just speculation at this point, seeing how it is a laptop part it could be the same for both.
This a thesis but another data driven for realtime rendering for fluid simulation this time
https://fallenshard.github.io/fluid-style-transfer.html
Link on the thesis
Realtime rendering of data driven fluid simulation with transfer style
EDIT:
Physics Forests: Using Machine Learning for Real-time Fluid Simulation - ACM SIGGRAPH Blog
What makes machine learning and real-time graphics a winning combination? The team behind SIGGRAPH 2017's Physics Forests explains.
A demo on Nvidia GPU from 1060 and above
While incredibly cool and another example of the awesome potential of data driven driven systems, this one would be a bit more difficult to scale due to the bounds limitations (which also is true of Ubisoft's data-driven physics cloth btw, but less of a limiting factor there). I'd love to see it happen though.
Comparatively I see Ubisoft's data driven cloth sim as having a clearer path to viability in AAA games. It could help address 4 large pitfalls of current runtime cloth solutions: performance, quality, scalability, and simulation pop. Also lines up well with Ubisoft's technical challenges with Assassins Creed. Not hard to imagine a push internally to bring this one out of the prototype stage and apply it to production.
Anyways, very exciting times ahead. Raytracing may be the shiny new toy right now, but there are other equally impressive ways games could evolve in the future.
Whats interesting about this whole 3D audio debate is, while Sony's Tempest and Dolby Atmos may be able to produce 100s of sound objects. XB1 and Series X also have DTS X. DTS X can produce an Unlimited number of spacial audio sound objects.
We don't know L3 of consoles, but 4900HS is 8MB confirmed . Maybe it benefits from lower latency a bit? https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-9-4900hs
XSX seems likely 32MB, since all the calculations I've seen can't get to 76MB without it.
Yes too. I hope we will see crazy data driven stuff next generation.
There's a practical processing limit, which is what Sony is referring to with 100s of sound sources (that is - with 'sophisticated' processing applied. Thousands with simpler processing). We don't know what the processing limit in Microsoft's solution is or how it compares - I would in the interim give them the benefit of the doubt though and assume it's similar.
I'm not really a sound guy but inst spacial different then object based?
It seems that software is also only one part of this equation. Just because your software is capable of something doesnt mean your hardware can handle it.
AMD Ryzen 9 4900HS performs better than the Ryzen 7 3700X and even the mighty Ryzen 9 3950X in startling UserBenchmark test
Benchmarks for the AMD Ryzen 9 4900HS APU have started popping up and the latest one is quite a surprise. According to the results recorded on UserBenchmark, the Renoir chip outpaced both the Ryzen 7 3700X and even the 16-core Ryzen 9 3950X. The Ryzen 4000 APU was tested in an Asus ROG Zephyrus...
I think this is the CPU of PS5 and Xbox Series X?
What? Why?
User Warned: Hostility
Stop feeding the trollz.
You don't think consoles are using 4800 series CPUs?AMD Ryzen 9 4900HS performs better than the Ryzen 7 3700X and even the mighty Ryzen 9 3950X in startling UserBenchmark test
Benchmarks for the AMD Ryzen 9 4900HS APU have started popping up and the latest one is quite a surprise. According to the results recorded on UserBenchmark, the Renoir chip outpaced both the Ryzen 7 3700X and even the 16-core Ryzen 9 3950X. The Ryzen 4000 APU was tested in an Asus ROG Zephyrus...
I think this is the CPU of PS5 and Xbox Series X?
At least on Sony side it looks like it could be it 8 MB of L3 like AMD Flute benchmark.
I'm not sure that rain's a good comparison here, we don't particularly hear rain as hundreds of individual sounds, it doesn't overwhelm us as the individual raindrops blend together into one constant sound.
Also, the Dolby Atmos implementation in my XOX is supposed to work on all headphones. It certainly seems to do so for me.
If Lockhart can do "easy" ports of games from a 12TF machine to a 4TF machine, I see no reason that SSD speed differences will not be capitalized on in some way other than faster load times.
I worry more about games designed to run on the previous generation/Switch causing lowest common denominator behaviors than SSD speed or any other perceived weakness in this upcoming generation.
Yeah I dont understand it completely but that's not entirely true. You would hear different sounds depending on the material the rain is falling on. If I'm working outside I dont all of a sudden feel overwhelmed because I hear hammering,music,talking, rain on rooftops, rain on grass,rain on metal and so on.
Also I could be wrong but just becuase it works with any speakers(if it does) doesnt mean you are getting all the objects that are supported. You may only get 15 instead of 32 for example.
Then it will make it more capable than the Series X's CPU.
Yeah..... might be hard to break some devs out of a few decades old technique.
WWS no doubt will be able to blow minds out the gate with this custom ssd. I am fine with that, of the 50+ games i bought this gen 90% was from WWS.
That's not true. Mark Cerny demoed one way that the storage impacts gameplay to Wired last year.
Yet the smallest difference in a long time in gpu raw power will result in better multiplatform performance and bla bla. It is s bit tiriing to be honest.
Each console has its own strong points, one of those , TF is well known what kind of advantages will provide (potentially, just look at RE3 demo), and the SSD strong point, we can speculate, since it's uncharted territory, but load times is obvious, and devs usually are the ones that come with neat ideas that we don't even can think of right now. Time will tell. And, until we have prices... That will put everything in the right place. At least Sony seems to have tried, not sure if succeeded, to keep price within reason. MS not so much apparently, but i guess they can still sell at loss
- Status