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chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
i can vouch for chris. i saw him talk about 7 gbps many times.

For being precise I said above 7GB/s because I could not give the exact speed. ;) But for being honest I was not knowing it will be above 8GB/s. I heard 8GB/s. And I was not knowing the exact SSD configuration because someone give me something false in case I said too much... I heard 2GB/s and compression ratio 4 to 1 and I asked surprised a very high compression ratio is this magic... But this is someone I trust and he just took a little precaution because this is a very exciting piece of information.
 
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VX1

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,000
Europe
lol. sony's abysmal marketing has left me to wonder if the ssd advantages are going to end up being just like MS's power of the cloud claims. if only they wouldve showed a demo or a gameplay walkthrough so we can see this mystical ssd in action.

until then their claims will be dismissed by guys like Dictator and straight up mocked by forum users like many on this page. i dont think i have ever seen marketing this bad before.
Their whole PR is very bad indeed during the last ~ 12 months or so.
 

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
For being precise I said above 7GB/s because I could not give the exact speed. ;)
what do you think of their 22gbps claims. thats insanely close to reram speeds. how do you see devs utilizing that? what scenario would we even hit 22 gbps anyway?

the ram bandwidth is so low im not sure if all this ssd magic will even matter if the actual bandwidth is only around 350 gbps leaving them with a limited data budget.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
what do you think of their 22gbps claims. thats insanely close to reram speeds. how do you see devs utilizing that? what scenario would we even hit 22 gbps anyway?

the ram bandwidth is so low im not sure if all this ssd magic will even matter if the actual bandwidth is only around 350 gbps leaving them with a limited data budget.

This is not realistic. Maybe some devs will optimize for example ND or GG and go a bit above the typical 8/9 GB/s but probably not as extreme as 22 GB/s just a bit above typical.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
7,506
All those insiders that were worshipped here: all had "dev sources". Look how that played out.
All what Dictator did was stating the obvious but as always his comments were taken out of context.
If people would actually read the full comments and not only excerpts they would know that.
I wished people would have the patience to wait for some games to actually see the difference instead of chasing phantasies.

Whatever advantages XSX has will amount to an imperceptible 1% difference in resolution at most. The advantages that PS5 possess will bring forward a paradigm shattering revolution in game design. At least that's what I learned from browsing Era over the past week.

This is gonna be true for both sides, heck just look at the official Xbox thread or the official Playstation thread, no one is going to wait until games are released. We're gonna have this back and forth for the next like 8 months maybe longer. It has already become tiresome in 2 weeks and honestly is starting to make this forum a complete drag.

In the end none of us know exactly how all these specs will manifest in games, whether the SSD of the PS5 will be taken advantage of or not, or if the GPU and CPU in the XSX will make that much of a difference.

It also doesn't help that no one has really shown next gen games, I know about the Hellblade trailer, really don't think it will end up looking like that during gameplay, but hope I am wrong and Godfall which looks impressive, but not that much more than what we have right now. I wish everyone would just wait and see instead of pumping up their own favorite box.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
I can understand they did not want to show games but Sony could have shown demo of the SSD a reference to Jak 2 is good to understand game design is restrained by storage speed since PS2 but something more visual would have been cool.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
With how some of the discussions are going about the PS5 specs, I think the best thing Sony can do now is show some games, so people can finally stop worrying or trolling about Tflops and dynamic clock speeds.

Let the games do the talking now.

Yes but it seems they have very cool demo and show nothing is very disappointing. They have other events to show the game.
 

androvsky

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,507
I'm a bit confused about something. I looked up Kraken and it looks like it handles image compression. Did devs stop using lossy compressed textures on consoles? Cerny mentioned zlib so I assumed he was just talking about lossless compression.
 

Evolved1

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,619
I can understand they did not want to show games but Sony could have shown demo of the SSD a reference to Jak 2 is good to understand game design is restrained by storage speed since PS2 but something more visual would have been cool.
When they finally do show games, I honestly don't think any of this previous shit is going to matter. Probably why sony comes off as a bit cavalier or even clumsy to us, but really they know what they have will drop like bombs when they're ready to pull the trigger. I mean the powerpoint presentation was so tone deaf, it's hard to believe they are that far into the weeds on messaging. Maybe they are. I'm just leaning toward them being really confident in their ability to control the narrative when they're ready to finally show stuff.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
I'm a bit confused about something. I looked up Kraken and it looks like it handles image compression. Did devs stop using lossy compressed textures on consoles? Cerny mentioned zlib so I assumed he was just talking about lossless compression.

Like BCPack, you can further compress textures but using lossless compression format if it is not the case you will finish with the same problem than megatexture which use JPEG compression above Direct X compression format. Yikes...


When they finally do show games, I honestly don't think any of this previous shit is going to matter. Probably why sony comes off as a bit cavalier or even clumsy to us, but really they know what they have will drop like bombs when they're ready to pull the trigger. I mean the powerpoint presentation was so tone deaf, it's hard to believe they are that far into the weeds on messaging. Maybe they are. I'm just leaning toward them being really confident in their ability to control the narrative when they're ready to finally show stuff.

Yes but it seems they have at least one very cool and impressive demo, I hope they will show the demos in next event and and like with PS1 with the demo disk let the people download the demo on PS5.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,736
I'm a bit confused about something. I looked up Kraken and it looks like it handles image compression. Did devs stop using lossy compressed textures on consoles? Cerny mentioned zlib so I assumed he was just talking about lossless compression.

I think you might have been looking at kraken.io, which is an online image compression tool? Unfortunately easy to confuse, the kraken discussed for PS5 is oodle kraken, and is a general purpose compression (http://www.radgametools.com/oodlekraken.htm). Games still use compressed texture formats than can be read natively by gpus, yes.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
I think you might have been looking at kraken.io, which is an online image compression tool? Unfortunately easy to confuse, the kraken discussed for PS5 is oodle kraken, and is a general purpose compression (http://www.radgametools.com/oodlekraken.htm). Games still use compressed texture formats than can be read natively by gpus, yes.

Yes but probably not as efficient as BCPack or Binomial Crunch or oodle image but it can compress textures a bit.
 

Lady Gaia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,479
Seattle
lol. sony's abysmal marketing has left me to wonder if the ssd advantages are going to end up being just like MS's power of the cloud claims.

There's a world of difference between delivering what developers have been quite literally begging for (dramatic improvements in I/O) and trying to push a claim that most developers are deeply skeptical about and could have already pursued on their own if they saw real value in it (cloud-assisted game logic or visuals.)

if only they wouldve showed a demo or a gameplay walkthrough so we can see this mystical ssd in action.

They will, no question. Ramping up marketing when you don't have a product available to sell is completely pointless, no matter how much people here want it. Any sane marketing plan will build to a crescendo at release when it makes the biggest difference.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
I wonder if using a more general purpose compressor makes sense for them if they want to have so many potential audio sources?

Binomial crunch began to be popular in game after 2016 I suppose the Sony solution was already in place maybe for a PS6 probably using oodle image and oodle Kraken. Don't forget Cerny asked to the dev what they want and it seems some devs were not using the hardware Zlib decompressor because use Kraken on Jaguar was faster. It is the disadvantage to want to be ready as soon as possible because from what I heard it is a huge change inside game engine.

There's a world of difference between delivering what developers have been quite literally begging for (dramatic improvements in I/O) and trying to push a claim that most developers are deeply skeptical about and could have already pursued on their own if they saw real value in it (cloud-assisted game logic or visuals.)



They will, no question. Ramping up marketing when you don't have a product available to sell is completely pointless, no matter how much people here want it. Any sane marketing plan will build to a crescendo at release when it makes the biggest difference.

I can understand but it was not a real GDC presentation and nearly 14 millions view on youtube. Do something more visual and better marketing would have been a great idea. I am happy of the details, spec of the console is good but show something fancy like cool demo.
 
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III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,827
what do you think of their 22gbps claims. thats insanely close to reram speeds. how do you see devs utilizing that? what scenario would we even hit 22 gbps anyway?

the ram bandwidth is so low im not sure if all this ssd magic will even matter if the actual bandwidth is only around 350 gbps leaving them with a limited data budget.
I think 22 GB/s is a theoretical maximum. Still insane and with real-world application at 8-9 GB/s that's amazing and for sure will hit higher.
 

androvsky

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,507
I think you might have been looking at kraken.io, which is an online image compression tool? Unfortunately easy to confuse, the kraken discussed for PS5 is oodle kraken, and is a general purpose compression (http://www.radgametools.com/oodlekraken.htm). Games still use compressed texture formats than can be read natively by gpus, yes.
Yes, I was looking at Kraken.io, thanks for clearing that up. The radgametools page explains a lot, I get the impression it won't help much with textures but it'll be amazing for everything else.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
A bit off topic but something to keep in mind:


At the end people are at home and need occupation and "Road to PS5" has more view than a Sony E3 conference. People were thirsty about PS5 information.

An Iracing event had a record of viewer.
image0.png


People are at home, Some people do remote work but maybe productivity is not as good because children are at home too and they see tons of video maybe without COVID19, "Road to PS5" would have less view on YouTube.

I think talk of game was out of the scope but give some fun demo would have help a lot.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,695
There's a world of difference between delivering what developers have been quite literally begging for (dramatic improvements in I/O) and trying to push a claim that most developers are deeply skeptical about and could have already pursued on their own if they saw real value in it (cloud-assisted game logic or visuals.)

Thanks for providing valuable context for those who are less technical. It is always great to have someone with a very good technical understanding of how these architectural decisions impact developing and designing games relate the real world possibilities to those who are curious.
 

chipperrip

Member
Jan 29, 2019
433
My point was, quite importantly, that both next gen consoles will do it in a manner that is very similar!

lol. sony's abysmal marketing has left me to wonder if the ssd advantages are going to end up being just like MS's power of the cloud claims. if only they wouldve showed a demo or a gameplay walkthrough so we can see this mystical ssd in action.

until then their claims will be dismissed by guys like Dictator and straight up mocked by forum users like many on this page. i dont think i have ever seen marketing this bad before.

Expanding on this, it needs to be repeated that the largest difference between the current and next gen consoles is HDD vs SSD, full stop.


Here's a lame car analogy to help (or perhaps just further confuse):

If a 5400rpm hard drive is a children's tricycle (SLOW), PS5 and XSX are two formula one cars with crazy fast cornering, acceleration and braking(near instant file access and bursts of transfer speed), where the PS5 can go faster in a straight line(higher peak theoretical transfer speed).

Sony needs to demonstrate that something can be done with those straight lines that can't be achieved on the XSX. If a game is mostly sharp curves with red lights every hundred meters, it's not gonna make a difference relative to the XSX, but it is still going to be mind bending compared to last gen.

I think the high storage performance floor set by these consoles will have the same generation-defining impact on game development on both consoles.


System wars disclaimer: I'm primarily a PC player, and will likely play mainly on PC in the future, with a PS5 on the side for Sony exclusives.
 

xem

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,043
If Thsushima was delayed because of TLOU2 then prety sure it safe to assume is coming in june, TLOU2 tough, that might be different.
Iv heard some say xbox has halo coming to showcase the series X this holiday and that will be an advantage. I never understood why if its such a big deal Sony wouldnt just hold one of those two games until ps5 launch. I guess they realize that PS5 will sell out either way and doesnt need to have such a high profile release along side?
 

Duderino

Member
Nov 2, 2017
305
You have contention there with consoles

Now wait a minute - if you notice you are comparing it to last gen. Which I happily reported on and have said multiple times that these consoles will change game design due to their CPUs, SSDs, and perhaps GPUs even as well. My point was, quite importantly, that both next gen consoles will do it in a manner that is very similar!

My whole talking about procedural vs. bespoke asset production was to counter the notion that it is wise to be constantly drawing unique assets from disk in an open world game. I never said "it is not something possible", rather that it goes against the trends in game development to keep costs, production and artist time down to make every single thing completely unique and therefore needing to swap out large portions of the RAM/VRAM constantly (and also using a lot of SSD Disk space as well).

I then mentioned examples of areas where I think swapping out a lot of the VRAM constantly for visual assets is appropriate (but also, still costly for disk space): I mentioned very detailed bake lighting as an example. Then chris 1515 smartly mentioned alembic animations could also be one, although it remains to be seen what kind of alembic use case that would mean. Doom Eternal uses allembic in nearly every frame in some levels for the writhing hell stuff you see, on current gen consoles no less. But in another game a large open world... you would have to think about what that kind of allembic might be. And realistically. Trees and grass moving? Would you rather have that be an allembic animation that is essentiallly static in its patterns and movement? Or would you have it be a vertex colour animation which you could tie into procedural systems like wind and player interaction?

Maybe the distant water scapes? Same question about its interactivity.

Something else that is crazy? IDK

Have you considered how a faster SSD could benefit data driven tech like Motion Matching? Say, for example, being able to quickly swap in a different locomotion set to use if a player is hurt. Or how about the data-driven physics Ubisoft is experimenting with?

Conventionally yes, pre-cached data equates to non-interactable playback. Looking forward however, that is just the starting point.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
1,496
North Carolina
Iv heard some say xbox has halo coming to showcase the series X this holiday and that will be an advantage. I never understood why if its such a big deal Sony wouldnt just hold one of those two games until ps5 launch. I guess they realize that PS5 will sell out either way and doesnt need to have such a high profile release along side?
Maybe they are far into development to retool and move it over to the new system and such?
 

2Blackcats

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,079
Iv heard some say xbox has halo coming to showcase the series X this holiday and that will be an advantage. I never understood why if its such a big deal Sony wouldnt just hold one of those two games until ps5 launch. I guess they realize that PS5 will sell out either way and doesnt need to have such a high profile release along side?

They'll have next gen games for that though.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
Have you considered how a faster SSD could benefit data driven tech like Motion Matching? Say, for example, being able to quickly swap in a different, large locomotion set to use if a player is hurt. Or how about the data-driven physics Ubisoft is experimenting with?

Conventionally yes, pre-cached data equates to non-interactable playback. Looking forward however, that is just the starting point.

This is what I heard great paper from Ubi Soft. And it will allow to do things impossible to do purely in real-time.
 

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
4,931
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
Clothes animation ;) for example and naked does not means static. Like I said current gen is not next gen wait a little to see the game. ;)
Giant flapping cloth, like Ryse :)

But yeah, still just a playback animation!
Have you considered how a faster SSD could benefit data driven tech like Motion Matching? Say, for example, being able to quickly swap in a different locomotion set to use if a player is hurt. Or how about the data-driven physics Ubisoft is experimenting with?

Conventionally yes, pre-cached data equates to non-interactable playback. Looking forward however, that is just the starting point.
Sounds like a thing that could be.

Once again, my Argument was not that an ssd does nothing for next gen ambitions (the exact opposite of what I would want to say). I am arguing about incredibly distinctly differences being possible between the boxes, and the appicability of 'everything is static on disk' being useful to All game design. Not every game is Star Citizen!

Before the PS5 Was revealed, i had a post in the speculation thread that was stickied where I argued that biggest change next gen would be from CPUs first - ssd would first be a game change for static loads. I then said as the gen goes on ssd would be used more, but not every game needs it - not every game is steaming all the time. Not every game is Star Citizen! Only after the PS5 Was revealed did it become such an important organ of dicussion: I assume only for consolewar reason(.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
Giant flapping cloth, like Ryse :)

But yeah, still just a playback animation!
Sounds like a thing that could be.

Once again, my Argument was not that an ssd does nothing for next gen ambitions (the exact opposite of what I would want to say). I am arguing about incredibly distinctly differences being possible between the boxes, and the appicability of 'everything is static on disk' being useful to All game design. Not every game is Star Citizen!

Before the PS5 Was revealed, i had a post in the speculation thread that was stickied where I argued that biggest change next gen would be from CPUs first - ssd would first be a game change for static loads. I then said as the gen goes on ssd would be used more, but not every game needs it - not every game is steaming all the time. Not every game is Star Citizen! Only after the PS5 Was revealed did it become such an important organ of dicussion: I assume only for consolewar reason(.

Like the example above in the Ubi Soft R&D I heard of interactive stuff not like Ryse water or flag clothes. We will see all this in gameplay. This sort of stuff is exactly here because it will help do things impossible in realtime and give much more credible world.

No I speak about it since one year because inside the industry all developer are very excited by the SSD. I heard in this order SSD and after CPU. GPU is exciting but less than the two other change. I heard of Audio too but by a guy doing audio. :) I play with headphone most of the time this is exciting too and not enough love for good audio.

All Open world stream data all the time and the limitation are highly visible. This is probably the number one reason Meridian in HZD felt limited because GG wanted to keep good level of graphics and create a big city and here again an elevator.

Edit: And not only open world I think it much more difficult to find an AAA game without streaming. ND, Sony Santa Monica or Tomb Raider Games steam data too and are wide linear.
 
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AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
Only after the PS5 Was revealed did it become such an important organ of dicussion: I assume only for consolewar reason(.

dont know if i agree with this characterization.

yes, its amplified now because cerny talked about it non stop for half an hour and PS5 has come under in the tflops war, but we have been discussing the benefits of ssds in this thread for over 10 OTs ever since Cerny revealed the SSD in April 2019. the spiderman streaming demo visualized it and ever since then most of us have been saying what you were saying. that ssd and cpu would offer the biggest leaps next gen.

Actually, thats why most of the SSD stuff fell kinda flat because we already expected the SSD to be that fast based on what he had already said in the wired article.
 

Kyoufu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,582
Yup, they did a terrible job helping people visualize what the SSD can help with.

To the consumer yes. The mistake they made was using a GDC talk as their front facing conversation with the consumer. The average person hasn't even played Jak 2. The average person has no idea what level design constraints are like. Every developer understands the limitations imposed by HDDs, but without visualisation the average person watching that talk has no clue, so yeah, they dropped the ball.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,316
To the consumer yes. The mistake they made was using a GDC talk as their front facing conversation with the consumer. The average person hasn't even played Jak 2. The average person has no idea what level design constraints are like. Every developer understands the limitations imposed by HDDs, but without visualisation the average person watching that talk has no clue, so yeah, they dropped the ball.


Using Jak 2 as an exemple wasn't smart either, considering it was a PS2 title running on disk.
A good exemple would've been a current gen title from Sony, explaining a limitation introduced by no SSD and show the difference. In fact, did they show the Spiderman video again ?
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,141
To the consumer yes. The mistake they made was using a GDC talk as their front facing conversation with the consumer. The average person hasn't even played Jak 2. The average person has no idea what level design constraints are like. Every developer understands the limitations imposed by HDDs, but without visualisation the average person watching that talk has no clue, so yeah, they dropped the ball.

The good thing is all of that won't matter when we finally see games.
Yes it was a mistake but i think people making it a bigger deal than it is once the marketing machine starts up.
 

endlessflood

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,693
Australia (GMT+10)
Using Jak 2 as an exemple wasn't smart either, considering it was a PS2 title running on disk.
A good exemple would've been a current gen title from Sony, explaining a limitation introduced by no SSD and show the difference. In fact, did they show the Spiderman video again ?
He used Jak 2 to demonstrate just how long those sorts of limitations had been around in game design. And obviously he was very familiar with the game, having personally worked on it.
 

Sprat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,684
England
It does.



news.xbox.com

Defining the Next Generation: An Xbox Series X|S Technology Glossary - Xbox Wire

[Editor’s Note: Updated on 10/21 at 11AM to ensure it is now reflective of the capabilities across both of our next-gen Xbox consoles following the unveil of Xbox Series S.] As we enter a new generation of console gaming with Xbox Series X and Xbox Series S, we’ve made a number of technology...
lol. sony's abysmal marketing has left me to wonder if the ssd advantages are going to end up being just like MS's power of the cloud claims. if only they wouldve showed a demo or a gameplay walkthrough so we can see this mystical ssd in action.

until then their claims will be dismissed by guys like Dictator and straight up mocked by forum users like many on this page. i dont think i have ever seen marketing this bad before.

Yeah but the majority of those forum posters also said there was no chance these systems would have ssds never mind as good as what they have
 

TheRealTalker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,487
Using Jak 2 as an exemple wasn't smart either, considering it was a PS2 title running on disk.
A good exemple would've been a current gen title from Sony, explaining a limitation introduced by no SSD and show the difference. In fact, did they show the Spiderman video again ?
he talked about Jak 2 and Spiderman

the Jak 2 map was explaining how the some narrow corridors techniques, etc... are being used in game design to load up other areas still to this day... nothing to do with comparing load times of a PS2 game vs a PS5 game

he also explained other techniques and functions due to the HDD in a more broad sense without outright giving game examples but situations and solutions
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,246
For what its worth, I thought the GDC talk was absolutely excellent, both on the SSD portions and on the audio portions. Even as a non-tech person, I was able to grasp quite a bit of it.

In fact, the audio bits had me absolutely excited at the possibilities.

As a marketing event, yes, it was not smart.
 

Lirion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,774
So much emotion and hostility this generation over these entertainment devices. Did anyone enjoy their games less this gen because they played it on a weaker console or felt superior because they played it on a more powerful console?

I find these threads very interesting with the tech talk but man those warrior posts are annoying.
 
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