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Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,276
aren't those two games being built around base limitations?

They might be, but if they're impressive showcases of the Series X then the fact that they're not "true" exclusives in terms of design or availability won't really matter. That Hellblade trailer was still an insane display of power no matter how 'true' it is; that's simply how marketing is.
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,676
London
All in all
MS exclusive games will have the most power to make the best looking games(assuming budget is there)

Sony exclusive will have the much faster ssd, which will allow them to do some interesting things

Both should have some impressive looking games.

Multiplats
Should run at higher resolution, and could very well have better raytracingperformance on xbox

Much faster loading on ps5
Maybe less pop in?


Can't wait for next gen. 😭

Yeah everyone should be happy.
MS fans get their pure beast, Sony fans get a beast with interesting quirks.
This isn't a tv,tv,tv situation, both are focused on gaming.
 

Sonicfan059

Member
Mar 4, 2018
3,024
The messaging for the BC is not clear. You have Cerny saying one thing, then you have this paragraph on their blogpost saying something else.

"Lastly, we're excited to confirm that the backwards compatibility features are working well. We recently took a look at the top 100 PS4 titles as ranked by play time, and we're expecting almost all of them to be playable at launch on PS5. With more than 4000 games published on PS4, we will continue the testing process and expand backwards compatibility coverage over time."

We need clarification from Sony.
I thought it was obvious that 99% would work with him talking about AMD working with them to ensure bc by making the logic work the same.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
I think this is a fair conclusion to make at this point of time right now.
It's not all doom and gloom though, the upside to the lower spec is that Sony's exclusive games will be well ahead of everything else like they were during the PS3/360 generation, Sony's 1st party devs will devote their life to show off the benefits of that SSD.
But regular SSDs aren't even standard on PC yet so multiplat devs can't really do much with it beside shortening the load times.
 

Godzilla24

Member
Nov 12, 2017
3,371
I don't think transfer speed will make a huge difference in real world performance. Take a look at this video comparing a 870 ssd vs 970 Nvme. The nvme is 7 times faster but only shows one or two second faster loading times on games. The PS5 transfer is twice as fast on paper compared to series X. Can't wait to see how this translate to real world performance by digital foundry.

www.youtube.com

M.2 NVME vs SSD vs SSHD vs HDD Game Loading Times

M.2 vs SSD vs SSHD vs HDD Game Loading Times. Welcome back guys, I thought it might be a good time to do an update to my M.2 vs SSD game loading times compar...
 

finalflame

Product Management
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,538
Whether or not you think they're a good showing doesn't change the fact that they have been shown. The Halo Infinite E3 2019 Demo has 2.9 million views whilst Hellblade 2 has over 3 million (across the two main Youtube postings). That's two big-budget XSX titles with amazing-looking graphics being shown before we've even had a proper 'big presentation', and that will definitely mean something in the end no matter their quality or the quality of their Xbox One predecessors.

As for the power, again this is all about narrative. People looking towards a new console purchase are going to see "which runs my Call of Duty and Fifa" better as a major selling point, and right now the overwhelming narrative is that the XSX will be the one running those better. It doesn't matter how big the difference is, and it's why it's up to Sony themselves to show people what makes the PS5 'better'.
The fact they have been shown means nothing for what will be available at launch. Microsoft and Sony's marketing strategy have obviously been vastly different, but we've basically only seen Microsoft's hand. It's hard to really draw any concrete conclusions. The number of views on Hellblade 2 + Halo Infinite's trailer ultimately will mean nothing for the success of the consoles and their lineup.

It's really, really hard to judge what the public at large will feel, even what the enthusiast crowd will feel, based on the reactions on ERA. What will actually define success has almost nothing to do with performance, and assuming all people care about is "which runs fifa or cod faster" is also extremely reductionist. The overall package of hardware + exclusives + price will dictate success, and we simply do not know these factors yet.

Basically the information Microsoft and now Sony have put it only serves for bickering console warriors. They have little influence on the commercial success of either platform.
 
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Carn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,911
The Netherlands
Okay, so what's the verdict then. Will all PS4 games be available (or let's say most of them) to play on the PS5 at launch?

Lastly, we're excited to confirm that the backwards compatibility features are working well. We recently took a look at the top 100 PS4 titles as ranked by play time, and we're expecting almost all of them to be playable at launch on PS5. With more than 4000 games published on PS4, we will continue the testing process and expand backwards compatibility coverage over time.

This is how I read this: They tested the 100 top played games and 'almost all of them' are expected to be playable @ launch. Its up in the air tho if Sony needs to push a small patch for each game (a bit similar as what MS is doing with their wrappers for BC games) or if old games might work running in legacy mode or might be broken when running in a PS5 'boost mode' (as with PS4 Pro boost mode).
 

Dirtyshubb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,555
UK
XSX :

340


PS5:

27f10da5872fcc2e96ad08a37e88707a4dfc58ear1-395-521v2_uhq.jpg
Better comparison would be that trunks vs cell. Trunks was more powerful but wasn't as fast so couldn't keep up.

As for my opinion on the video, as someone who understood just enough to follow along with what was presented, it sounded like a lot of work has gone into the console and should be more than able to keep up with xbx where it counts (and be better for ssd stuff).

I'm hoping the negativity surrounding it from places like here won't build a narrative that it is a bad console. Wouldn't affect me either way since I was always gonna buy it over the xbx.
 

Equanimity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,991
London
They might be, but if they're impressive showcases of the Series X then the fact that they're not "true" exclusives in terms of design or availability won't really matter. That Hellblade trailer was still an insane display of power no matter how 'true' it is; that's simply how marketing is.

If you think Hellblade in-engine cinematic was an insane display of power, wait until you see exclusive software built around next gen specs. The fast SSD will fundamentally change how worlds are designed, the possibilities are unlike anything we've yet to see in the console space.
 

M.Bluth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,245
A few tech nerds might enjoy that proper in-depth techy presentation, me included, but I find it weird that anyone would disagree that this was a poor way to announce your tech specs.

Jason was right, they should've had something more mainstream a week or so earlier, and then released this.

As for specs, slightly underwhelming versus the XsX, but not by much imo. While I would've preferred complete parity, I'm happy that my "double the Xone X's gaming performance" prediction for baseline next-gen that I made many OTs ago has been exceeded by both companies.

Would've been an exciting year if it wasn't for coronavirus.
 

Sekiro

Member
Jan 25, 2019
2,938
United Kingdom
Gonna post this convo from reddit about the difference between 10TF vs 12TF:

WARNING! TEXT WALL!

2Blitz said:
Legit question. Is 10 Teraflops that bad compared to Xbox's 12? Also is 4K 60FPS confirmed?

Ryder556 said:
For the average person(which is 90% of the consumer base) the difference is literally nothing. And it's absolutely nothing to get angry about like so many people seem to be doing. The PS5 GPU is similar to an RTX 2080 . The XSX, a 2080 ti. It's just a dick measuring contest with no winners as both are considered high end GPU's and perfectly acceptable and capable of playing everything on max or near max for the next 5+ years.



Now about TFLOPS. Let's take a look at a pretty big gap. The 1080 ti and the 980 ti . The 980 ti has around 6 TFLOPS. The 1080 ti, nearly double at ~11.3. The average performance between the two isn't around double, which you'd expect if TFLOPS accounted for actual performance. In a realworld, in game scenario, it's closer to 20 percent on average. That equates to higher total FPS, but when both can hit over 60 in practically any game, it's just fluff. The PS5 and XSX will be the same exact thing. Just fluff with extra headroom that won't matter when both will be capable of 60 FPS gaming with zero slowdown.

Taking a look at a smaller gap, the 2080 and 2080 ti. Actual in game difference is even less, at around 15 percent.



Looking at things realistically, the extra GPU power for the XSX is probably because Microsoft plan to use 4k as the standard(though 4k30. 4k60 will likely be on certain games only, like lesser demanding ones or Xbox One games). Mark didn't touch on FPS or resolution at all. So it's likely 4k60 won't be a huge focus for Sony and they'll settle for 4k30. The most important thing that still hasn't been discussed though is if the consoles will have a hardware rendering resolution. If people without 4k displays have to suffer the consequences of 4k, both consoles are going to lose points. A lot of points.



And then we got price. Mark mentioned multiple times that cost was a very important thing for them. Expect the PS5 to cost considerably less than an XSX. And I'm talking more than a 100 dollar difference.



TL;DR: At 1080p, and likely 1440p if the PS5 supports it, you'll see next to zero differences and the only actual ones will be at 4k, if at all. It's not a problem. The PS5 GPU is perfectly fine and will offer no discernible negative compared to the XSX. Games will look and perform identical. PS5 will almost certainly cost much less. Again giving Sony the edge. Average consumer cares more about price than performance.



In conclusion, it's mass hysteria caused the by "Bigger number equals better" argument that uneducated people love to argue about.



TL;DR part 2: To answer your questions, no. And no.
 

-Le Monde-

Avenger
Dec 8, 2017
12,613
Yeah everyone should be happy.
MS fans get their pure beast, Sony fans get a beast with interesting quirks.
This isn't a tv,tv,tv situation, both are focused on gaming.
Yup. Some will be dissatisfied because they wanted the power crown to gloat, but both systems are pretty good.

Now I need to sell the one x before the price tanks, but with RE3 looming it will have to wait.
 

Deleted member 1003

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,638
Ever Jim said they were looking to get people transitioned over quickly, my first thought was price. I believe they are willing to sell at a loss because for them generations are clearly important. Microsoft less so because they offer a premium machine, the plan to continue to support the One series and obviously Gamepass on PC.

I think MS is willing to sell at a premium for Series X while offering the One series for those who can't afford the Series X. "We have a system for you if you cannot afford the Series X, it's called the Xbox One X."

I expect the One X to fall by $100 with support for another two years and the One S to be discontinued after this year.
 

KOHIPEET

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,416
Wow, this presentation....... I've never seen anything so depressing. That fake people shadows. Wow........Looks like a bad joke.
It kind-of makes me furious about management and marketing team. There's just no excuse for showing not even a second of a fucking tech demo.
Whatever Sony had -regarding communicating with their customers- before the launch of PS4, they had lost it.
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,827
Only thing that bums me out is that we didn't get a single tech demo to chew on while we wait for full reveal.
 

wachie

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
526
Gonna post this convo from reddit about the difference between 10TF vs 12TF:

WARNING! TEXT WALL!
Yep, at the most we will have a few select titles that may play better on Xbox or PS5 depending on which approach they cater to and the general populace will go with price + games + availability.
 
Jun 18, 2018
1,100
So, those "SPU-like" audio processors that can also be used for other forms of programming.

Anyone want to climb aboard PS3 BC hype train yet?
 

Justsomeguy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,711
UK
This isn't a tv,tv,tv situation, both are focused on gaming.

So much this for me.
Anyone focussed on a 2tf difference is missing the point.
The 2tf might well make a difference in some circumstances.
But both machines are epic beasts that are a proper generational change in a way the ps4 and the xbone weren't.
 

褲蓋Calo

Alt-Account
Banned
Jan 1, 2020
781
Shenzhen, China
I think the real world difference is only gonna be something like 4K vs 1800p, not a big deal for the vast majority of people.

On a different note, what I found perplexing was how a false "insider" (aka Kleegamefan) was able to get himself verified, twice IIRC, and took that to his advantage and fooled people around here, where in retrospective the only thing he did right was permabanning himself.

Can we still trust era's verification process?
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,276
It's not all doom and gloom though, the upside to the lower spec is that Sony's exclusive games will be well ahead of everything else like they were during the PS3/360 generation, Sony's 1st party devs will devote their life to show off the benefits of that SSD.
But regular SSDs aren't even standard on PC yet so multiplat devs can't really do much with it beside shortening the load times.

Yeah, I think this might be an issue with Sony's strategy here. It will make their own exclusive titles so much better, and I can't wait to see what they do there, but for multiplat games the difference might be much, much less noticeable. The SSD represents a huge improvement in design capabilities, which is great, but design is much, much more difficult to adapt than graphics. DOOM Eternal, for example, can run on a Switch whilst still being a technical showcase for current-gen platforms.

The fact they have been shown means nothing for what will be available at launch. Microsoft and Sony's marketing strategy have obviously been vastly different, but we've basically only seen Microsoft's hand. It's hard to really draw any concrete conclusions. The number of views on Hellblade 2 + Halo Infinite's trailer ultimately will mean nothing for the success of the consoles and their lineup.

It's really, really hard to judge what the public at large will feel, even what the enthusiast crowd will feel, based on the reactions on ERA. What will actually define success has almost nothing to do with performance, and assuming all people care about is "which runs fifa or cod faster" is also extremely reductionist The overall package of hardware + exclusives + price will dictate success, and we simply do not know these factors yet.

Basically the information Microsoft and now Sony have put it only serves for bickering console warriors. They have little influence on the commercial success of either platform.

Of course they will mean something for the success of the consoles and their lineup. This notion that marketing is about simply making sure that things are OK 'in the moment' is a gross misrepresentation of what marketing is, which is creating and maintaining narratives over time. Right now Microsoft is doing much more to creative a certain narrative surrounding their new console than Sony is, and that will have an effect on launch. If you want an example then look at the Xbox One which suffered throughout its entire lifespan due to a single conference that created a wrong narrative about the product. I'm not saying that the PS5 will see such a drastic effect, just trying to point out how your notion that marketing at this time 'doesn't matter' is ridiciulous.

As for the second point, I feel that you're taking an 'all or nothing' stance here on everything. No, power isn't everything, of course it isn't, but it is a major factor that will affect the narrative surrounding the PS5 and Series X in various ways. The Xbox One suffered because, alongside the other obvious factors, it released to a bunch of big news stories saying how it's a 900p machine whilst the PS4 was for 1080p gamers.

Though, frankly, if you're gonna say that the information right now is "only for bickering console warriors," then I'm not going to bother as I find that kind of insulting. What I'm doing here is analysing Sony's marketing strategy at the moment, not trying to bloody win some stupid console war. For crying out loud.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
This is just me, but I feel that this PR goof up would never have happened had Shawn Layden been in charge. That man has a keen sense for presentation. Shame he left.
Yeah this wasn't well-planned.
They could've ended it all with hype just by showing a few seconds of Horizon 2, nobody would care about these figures after that. But of course they didn't.
And the presentation was too basic for developers, like why start describing what a SSD is? And it was too complicated, slow and frankly boring for the general public. And they still haven't shown the console.
I just don't understand what they thought they would gain by showing this.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,734
Boost mode isn't the same as automatically adding HDR in all games and upping resolution in select games, including Xbox One titles now with no dev work required.

No it's not, but it's an automatic enhancement. Cerny did not mention enhancements such as those mentioned, indeed (though I think we could get into semantics over how 'automatic' they are - automatic for the developer, yes, but I'm not sure they're automatic for the platform team implementing them).
 

HommePomme

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,052
I feel like double the storage speed for exclusive games might make more of a difference than the TF discrepancy. This gen GPU performance differences could be easily made up with dynamic resolution and image reconstruction in a way less noticeable way than current gen where Xbox One straight up couldn't hit 1080p
 

ElephantShell

10,000,000
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,912
I will not defend the look of that presentation but I found the content interesting. People will get the hypefest they want eventually.
 

foamdino

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
491
10+ TF and lots of secret sauce - I'm happy
chris 1515 and gofreak nailed the SSD patent

Very interested about the 3d audio, not something I have personally been bothered about but it sounds not just impressive but includes actual cutting-edge research level tech which is bonkers

Love the switcheroo from frequency to power - locking power and letting frequency vary as a solution for nailing down cooling in all situations is genius engineering.

Really impressive piece of system engineering which seems to address developers wishes (time to triangle < 1 month!! - that's the same as PS1 ease of use).

Really looking forward to the games now - I think that tweak to allow un-fix-function the geometry engine is pretty clever too - more efficient that culling later - does anyone know if that is part of RDNA2 or is that something Sony requested?

Looks like it's going to be a great generation - I'm sure Microsoft fans are happy with XsX too
 

DrDeckard

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,109
UK
On another note, I knew Klee was bullshit when he claimed he'd seen the hardware raytracing demo. It didnt add up to me.
 
I don't think transfer speed will make a huge difference in real world performance. Take a look at this video comparing a 870 ssd vs 970 Nvme. The nvme is 7 times faster but only shows one or two second faster loading times on games. The PS5 transfer is twice as fast on paper compared to series X. Can't wait to see how this translate to real world performance by digital foundry.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Cerny spent quite a bit of the presentation explaining what they did to make sure that games will enjoy full effect of the speed boost vs. just replacing HDD with SSD. So the actual Sony/MS difference can be even bigger than one on the specs.
 

Traxus

Spirit Tamer
Member
Jan 2, 2018
5,188
LMAO

It's better than anything I could've expeced. Sony has to be trolling us. They literally just took a sterile presentation meant exclusively for developers and copypasted it for a worldwide PS5 specs reveal after months of radio silence.

The best I can describe it is Bob Ross giving a math lecture. I couldn't finish. This is certainly going to get clowned on fondly for generations to come.
 

STech

Member
Sep 24, 2018
1,735
This is the first time I'm disappointed after a PS presentation, even after the price reveal of PS3 I had a better feeling.

Idk if this is because of the coronavirus situation, but I'm in an almost-hate feeling after this presentation.
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,276
If you think Hellblade in-engine cinematic was an insane display of power, wait until you see exclusive software built around next gen specs. The fast SSD will fundamentally change how worlds are designed, the possibilities are unlike anything we've yet to see in the console space.

That's the thing, Sony hasn't showed anything like that. They can't rely on people going "this will be a game changer," because that, in the absence of actual evidence, means nothing. The Hellblade demo may be a bunch of fakery, and I think it is tbh, but it's a trailer that people can easily view and that means a lot to people. The same goes for the short demos showing off the XSX's loading times, quick-resume and ray-tracing features.
 

TitlePending

The Fallen
Dec 26, 2018
5,339
As for the second point, I feel that you're taking an 'all or nothing' stance here on everything. No, power isn't everything, of course it isn't, but it is a major factor that will affect the narrative surrounding the PS5 and Series X in various ways. The Xbox One suffered because, alongside the other obvious factors, it released to a bunch of big news stories saying how it's a 900p machine whilst the PS4 was for 1080p gamers.

The XBO was also $100 more expensive with weaker specs and the whole DRM situation swirling around it.



Microsoft have definitely done a great job socializing XSX. But if the PS5 is price competitively then it won't face nearly the types of hurdles that the XBO had out the gate.
 

GameAddict411

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,513
Gonna post this convo from reddit about the difference between 10TF vs 12TF:

WARNING! TEXT WALL!
That post is full of wrong assumption. Since when is the difference between GTX 980 TI and GTX 1080 TI is 20%? The same is true for RTX 2080 and RTX 2080 ti. Then they equates them to PS5 and XSX lol. Just no. It's how things work at all.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,426
It's really, really hard to judge what the public at large will feel, even what the enthusiast crowd will feel, based on the reactions on ERA. What will actually define success has almost nothing to do with performance, and assuming all people care about is "which runs fifa or cod faster" is also extremely reductionist The overall package of hardware + exclusives + price will dictate success, and we simply do not know these factors yet.

This is it - pack the comparison and prediction talk up.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,670
I don't think transfer speed will make a huge difference in real world performance. Take a look at this video comparing a 870 ssd vs 970 Nvme. The nvme is 7 times faster but only shows one or two second faster loading times on games. The PS5 transfer is twice as fast on paper compared to series X. Can't wait to see how this translate to real world performance by digital foundry.

www.youtube.com

M.2 NVME vs SSD vs SSHD vs HDD Game Loading Times

M.2 vs SSD vs SSHD vs HDD Game Loading Times. Welcome back guys, I thought it might be a good time to do an update to my M.2 vs SSD game loading times compar...
The problem with this comparison is that it is done in a PC environment. PS5 has significant custom silicon to handle decompression, transfer/copy, etc. that will likely make the raw speed of the SSD a much more realistic measure of how it performs within the context of PS5. Unless XSX has something analogous, Sony's SSD solution may very well be many times faster than XSX's.
 

DrDeckard

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,109
UK
Yep, at the most we will have a few select titles that may play better on Xbox or PS5 depending on which approach they cater to and the general populace will go with price + games + availability.

The harsh reality is, you get more performance for less power consumption and less heat with the xbox. You get full backwards compatibility with games and accessories. A near silent box and confirmed multi game resume.

You get a bloody fast ssd with the ps5 that has less capacity. Weaker performance especially in raytracing and it will draw more power from your wall and unless they are using magic. Will be hot and potentially noisy.

MS absolutely brought a sophisticated behemoth to this generation. Sony have scuppered it in power choices. Ssd will hopefully offer exclusives that take advantage.

I think its obvious the ps5 was supposed to launch last year but something delayed it, probably the BC testing.
 
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