PlayStation 5 Pre-Release Technical Discussion |OT|

TheThreadsThatBindUs · Jul 4, 2020

褲蓋Calo said:
When can't substantiate your claim, draw the NDA card lol.

You think Matt (a PS5 dev) can't substantiate his claims on technical subjects, but a non-technical games journalist can?

Lol!

Matt certainly gets the benefit of the doubt here. Not the other way around. If Tom had any sort of self-awareness or humility he'd have kept quiet and not responded.

disco_potato said:
Let's get back on topic, please. All this will do is drive the wrong type of people into this thread.

Sorry to break it to you, but they're already here... 👀

Deleted member 1003 · Jul 4, 2020

hey it's that dog said:
I can only assume that Tom Warren believes or wants to spread the narrative that the way Sony is using and talking about variable clocks is purely a PR framing device to make their machine look less weak against the Xbox.

What kind of professional tech writer would do this without getting comments from anonymous sources at the very least? I don't know 🤷‍♂️

As far as I can tell the devs are talking more about the system architecture in general than specifically talking about the variable clocks over and over. Even Sony isn't talking clocks and why would when they showed off the games. They are not worried. Developers working in the PS5 are not worried.

From what I see the only people continually concern trolling about clocks are the fanboys.

Hey Please · Jul 4, 2020

Flutta said:
I've seen so many bad takes from Brad and Tom that has been disputed everywhere.

Quality "journalism" there.

Magio · Jul 4, 2020

Regarding what Matt said earlier today about a portable 20 CU machine to play next gen games at 720/1080p... Is that actually something that would be achievable with current or near-future (1 year) tech? Are we talking about portable as in Switch-like or a Laptop?

Obviously those CUs would have to be clocked quite low, but I'm just curious about the feasibility.

RedHeat · Jul 4, 2020

Dunno why people give some much credit to Tom Warren here when he's an obvious Warrior. And no, it isn't "just for fun".

AegonSnake · Jul 4, 2020

CROAT_56 said:
Matt does not have either device if he did he wouldn't be talking about them openly on a forum due to their NDAs

VG24/7:Epic rewrite I/O subsystem with PS5 SSD in mind

Side note: the comments were made by Epic's VP of engineering not Tim Sweeney, for any future agitator wanting to call him a liar this isn't the thread . My question is why are the comments from the VP of engineering so offensive?

www.resetera.com

I have see it in action, first hand.

Even if you as a consumer don't consciously realize all the ways it will improve games on many levels, the difference for devs is striking.

Deleted member 62280 · Jul 4, 2020

AegonSnake said:
VG24/7:Epic rewrite I/O subsystem with PS5 SSD in mind

Side note: the comments were made by Epic's VP of engineering not Tim Sweeney, for any future agitator wanting to call him a liar this isn't the thread . My question is why are the comments from the VP of engineering so offensive?

www.resetera.com

Doesn't negate what I have said.
As someone under NDA in my real life job (doesn't relate to the new consoles) I can assure you Matt doesn't have the devices based upon his posting history. He may have friends who say things (far more likely given his industry status) but I highly doubt he has direct access or is working on these devices as we speak. Example number one Shinobi do you ever see them talking about either device from a hardware standpoint? Example 2 Elenarie same question? We know both of these devs have direct access to both dev kits. Epic has permission to discuss certain features for one system or another but it doesn't change the facts that NDAs are a serious thing to consider when posting regardless of perceived anonymity.

Grayson · Jul 4, 2020

RedHeat said:
Dunno why people give some much credit to Tom Warren here when he's an obvious Warrior. And no, it isn't "just for fun".

That much is obvious. For years.

AegonSnake · Jul 4, 2020

CROAT_56 said:
Doesn't negate what I have said.
As someone under NDA in my real life job (doesn't relate to the new consoles) I can assure you Matt doesn't have the devices based upon his posting history. He may have friends who say things (far more likely given his industry status) but I highly doubt he has direct access or is working on these devices as we speak. Example number one Shinobi do you ever see them talking about either device from a hardware standpoint? Example 2 Elenarie same question? We know both of these devs have direct access to both dev kits. Epic has permission to discuss certain features for one system or another but it doesn't change the facts that NDAs are a serious thing to consider when posting regardless of perceived anonymity.

you replied to a guy with the intention of dismissing what Matt had said about the specs. dont try to get out of it on a technicality. both you and I know what your intention was.

Kyoufu · Jul 4, 2020

Flutta said:
I've seen so many bad takes from Brad and Tom that has been disputed everywhere.

That 2nd tweet isn't loading for me. Was it deleted? What did it say?

Expy · Jul 4, 2020

Don't get why they delete their tweets. If you're going to say something, stick with it.

AegonSnake · Jul 4, 2020

Kyoufu said:
That 2nd tweet isn't loading for me. Was it deleted? What did it say?

褲蓋Calo · Jul 4, 2020

AegonSnake said:
Matt never said that. it was jason.

Matt made an educated guess saying the XSX was more powerful and the difference between the two was roughly 15%. i'd say he came pretty close.

Okay, I stand corrected.

Uzupedro · Jul 4, 2020

Is this Matt (who answered Tom) and the Matt who posts here the same person? I thought they were different Matts lol

AegonSnake · Jul 4, 2020

Uzupedro said:
Is this Matt (who answered Tom) and the Matt who posts here the same person? I thought they were different Matts lol

Different.

Uzupedro · Jul 4, 2020

AegonSnake said:
Different.

Oh, someone brought Matt ("our" Matt) to the discussion here, so I really started to think they were the same person.
Makes sense.

MrKlaw · Jul 4, 2020

That original comment was from March. Maybe a hot take on cerny's deep dive but it's old now so we should try and move on

James Sawyer Ford · Jul 4, 2020

AegonSnake said:
doubled down on 9 tflops and speculated that it will make a big difference.

yet he also says 4TF won't hold next gen back

can't have your cake and eat it too

ManOfWar · Jul 4, 2020

Journalist "without a technical background" are not a problem. Journalist that can be, or appear to be, partisan towards a brand are a problem.

CrispyGamer · Jul 4, 2020

anexanhume said:
Article on Sony's almost entirely automated PS4 line in Japan. Relevant for a lot of discussions lately: COVID, Chinese labor, and production costs.

PlayStation's secret weapon: a nearly all-automated factory

Robots carry on legacy of craftsmanship at little-known Kisarazu plant

asia.nikkei.com

Amazing article thanks!

chris 1515 · Jul 4, 2020

CROAT_56 said:
Doesn't negate what I have said.
As someone under NDA in my real life job (doesn't relate to the new consoles) I can assure you Matt doesn't have the devices based upon his posting history. He may have friends who say things (far more likely given his industry status) but I highly doubt he has direct access or is working on these devices as we speak. Example number one Shinobi do you ever see them talking about either device from a hardware standpoint? Example 2 Elenarie same question? We know both of these devs have direct access to both dev kits. Epic has permission to discuss certain features for one system or another but it doesn't change the facts that NDAs are a serious thing to consider when posting regardless of perceived anonymity.

There is a big difference between Matt and the other poster you talk about. He has no public identity.

BreakAtmo · Jul 4, 2020

anexanhume said:
The team is strong.

I know the Soc is plausible, but how do you get 176GB/s RAM bandwidth in a portable?

Deleted member 56752 · Jul 4, 2020

When are we going to get a UI walkthrough

foolishoptimist · Jul 4, 2020

BreakAtmo said:
I know the Soc is plausible, but how do you get 176GB/s RAM bandwidth in a portable?

Doesn't HBM take less power than GDDR?

BreakAtmo · Jul 4, 2020

foolishoptimist said:
Doesn't HBM take less power than GDDR?

It does, and that's exactly what I was thinking would be the best option. The problem is that I haven't really been able to find any examples of a 15-25W device using HBM, it's all slow LPDDR4/X. The PS4 SoC would also need to be altered to use HBM3 if my understanding is correct, you can't just swap the RAM types out.

gundamkyoukai · Jul 4, 2020

I come in here to see people bringing up Matt .
The info we get from him is as good as it gets until more people are open .

褲蓋Calo · Jul 4, 2020

BreakAtmo said:
It does, and that's exactly what I was thinking would be the best option. The problem is that I haven't really been able to find any examples of a 15-25W device using HBM, it's all slow LPDDR4/X. The PS4 SoC would also need to be altered to use HBM3 if my understanding is correct, you can't just swap the RAM types out.

There is Apple's MacBook Pro 16, but I think that's a at the minimal 45w machine.

SharpX68K · Jul 4, 2020

blackboxme said:
Tom Warren saying PS5 will actually be only 9.00TF, and that devs will find that "a bit of an issue" is pure FUD. When he says that, he shows that he has no clue about how game development and performance work.

No one else in the industry is saying "This GPU isn't good enough for next gen" or "This CPU isn't good enough for next gen." Only Tom Warren, a Microsoft insider. What kind of reporter, with extensive Microsoft contacts, just drops FUD all over a competitor's product without having a single on the record source to back it up?

Tom is not speaking from experience. He is either speaking from Tales from His Ass, speculating on performance based on his nonexistent knowledge of working on PS5, or he's taking a Microsoft insider's word for it, or he's talking to a dev who is suffering from the horrible performance of the PS5. If he's talking to a dev who thinks PS5 is crapping the bed, that seems to be a minority view, as most devs seem to like it fine. But maybe that's the narrative he's primed to believe. The other two scenarios are even worse for his reputation.

Thank you. I agree.

Deleted member 27995 · Jul 5, 2020

SharpX68K said:
Thank you. I agree.

This is the same Tom that spent his time on the forum reminding everyone that a 4TF Xbox system would not hold back next gen.

Doctor Avatar · Jul 5, 2020

ManOfWar said:
Journalist "without a technical background" are not a problem. Journalist that can be, or appear to be, partisan towards a brand are a problem.

Or journalists who think they know what they're talking about but don't. @tomwarren's recent twitter debates over the past day or so show he fundamentally doesn't understand the PS5's power and frequency management, even going so far as to make completely unsubstantiated claims that contradict Cerny.

The part where it all looks very partisan is that, while people can get things wrong, when he was challenged as to why his statements contradicted Cerny's he basically dodged the question instead of engaging honestly or simply admitting he was wrong and retracting his statements

He seems to believe that the CPU and GPU are incapable of ever running at max frequency at the same time, and also that it significantly downclocks in actual use (hence the 9TF statements). It all sounds very like the "they fudged the numbers at the last minute to make it look more competitive with XSX" nonsense.

Mubrik_ · Jul 5, 2020

Sony please sway the discussion back on this thread and drop the teardown video already.

Announce a DLSS like feature so i can read some more technical stuff
or a gameplay video for aegon to dissect
or just bring back pheonix so i can read long posts again.

On topic of DLSS, is it a time saver for development?
I believe all that's required is for the devs to provide nvidia the 'game' and voila?
wouldn't that save productivity compared to say pheonix favorite of checkerboarding? or corralx temporal reconstruction?

if so, knowing it requires hardware implementation (for nvidia atleast), is there any chance we see something like that this generation for PS5/XSX?
Not necessarily at launch but down the road, maybe something in house for different pubs?
That or devs just stick with tried and true

2Blackcats · Jul 5, 2020

Mubrik_ said:
Sony please sway the discussion back on this thread and drop the teardown video already.

Announce a DLSS like feature so i can read some more technical stuff
or a gameplay video for aegon to dissect
or just bring back pheonix so i can read long posts again.

On topic of DLSS, is it a time saver for development?
I believe all that's required is for the devs to provide nvidia the 'game' and voila?
wouldn't that save productivity compared to say pheonix favorite of checkerboarding? or corralx temporal reconstruction?

if so, knowing it requires hardware implementation (for nvidia atleast), is there any chance we see something like that this generation for PS5/XSX?
Not necessarily at launch but down the road, maybe something in house for different pubs?
That or devs just stick with tried and true

We're definitely due another shot of PS5 hype to keep us going. Tuesday maybe.

BreakAtmo · Jul 5, 2020

Mubrik_ said:
Sony please sway the discussion back on this thread and drop the teardown video already.

Announce a DLSS like feature so i can read some more technical stuff
or a gameplay video for aegon to dissect
or just bring back pheonix so i can read long posts again.

On topic of DLSS, is it a time saver for development?
I believe all that's required is for the devs to provide nvidia the 'game' and voila?
wouldn't that save productivity compared to say pheonix favorite of checkerboarding? or corralx temporal reconstruction?

if so, knowing it requires hardware implementation (for nvidia atleast), is there any chance we see something like that this generation for PS5/XSX?
Not necessarily at launch but down the road, maybe something in house for different pubs?
That or devs just stick with tried and true

DLSS requires tensor cores, so that won't be happening for the new consoles. Maybe mid-gen machines, or the Switch 2.

MrKlaw · Jul 5, 2020

BreakAtmo said:
DLSS requires tensor cores, so that won't be happening for the new consoles. Maybe mid-gen machines, or the Switch 2.

1.9 didn't on Control. I'm pretty sure Sony first party teams will be pushing for better quality reconstruction options. MS seems to sway more towards dynamic resolution which may fit their needs better to cover older consoles and in particular PC. But even there I expect some movement into more reconstruction techniques.

I'd be ok buying a pro just for a DLSS chip but honestly at typical TV viewing distances compared to PC, I think some of the existing techniques will be fine - with a little adjustment from having more power available to them.

BreakAtmo · Jul 5, 2020

MrKlaw said:
1.9 didn't on Control. I'm pretty sure Sony first party teams will be pushing for better quality reconstruction options. MS seems to sway more towards dynamic resolution which may fit their needs better to cover older consoles and in particular PC. But even there I expect some movement into more reconstruction techniques.

I'd be ok buying a pro just for a DLSS chip but honestly at typical TV viewing distances compared to PC, I think some of the existing techniques will be fine - with a little adjustment from having more power available to them.

1.9 was an experiment that was quickly patched out because it sucked, so yeah - agreed that we'll see other forms of reconstruction.

Mubrik_ · Jul 5, 2020

Yeah, shame.
Seems like such a productivity hack for devs if DLSS is achieved how i think it is.
Cerny thought of using the ID buffer for reconstruction while designing the PRO, reconstruction must have been big on their list then.
The technique of offline reconstruction couldn't have skipped them (sony/amd) by, unless they are confident of hitting 4K easily (reconstruction/native) with most games

Yaqza · Jul 5, 2020

2Blackcats said:
We're definitely due another shot of PS5 hype to keep us going. Tuesday maybe.

Nah, they don't need to hurry. Sony still has Ghost of Tsushima to market properly. PS5 can wait until August. They will problably drop some tidbits (like recent indie initiative), but nothing major.

anexanhume · Jul 5, 2020

BreakAtmo said:
It does, and that's exactly what I was thinking would be the best option. The problem is that I haven't really been able to find any examples of a 15-25W device using HBM, it's all slow LPDDR4/X. The PS4 SoC would also need to be altered to use HBM3 if my understanding is correct, you can't just swap the RAM types out.

There hasn't been an end use that has called for it yet. This BW could be achieved by a single stack of undervolted HBM though.

2Blackcats · Jul 5, 2020

Yaqza said:
Nah, they don't need to hurry. Sony still has Ghost of Tsushima to market properly. PS5 can wait until August. They will problably drop some tidbits (like recent indie initiative), but nothing major.

Wishful thinking on my part I guess.

Yaqza · Jul 5, 2020

2Blackcats said:
Wishful thinking on my part I guess.

Hey, where would we be without dreamers!

褲蓋Calo · Jul 5, 2020

Mubrik_ said:
Sony please sway the discussion back on this thread and drop the teardown video already.

Announce a DLSS like feature so i can read some more technical stuff
or a gameplay video for aegon to dissect
or just bring back pheonix so i can read long posts again.

On topic of DLSS, is it a time saver for development?
I believe all that's required is for the devs to provide nvidia the 'game' and voila?
wouldn't that save productivity compared to say pheonix favorite of checkerboarding? or corralx temporal reconstruction?

if so, knowing it requires hardware implementation (for nvidia atleast), is there any chance we see something like that this generation for PS5/XSX?
Not necessarily at launch but down the road, maybe something in house for different pubs?
That or devs just stick with tried and true

Oh yeah bring back Pheonix +1

Deleted member 54674 · Jul 5, 2020

anexanhume said:
He is beating us over the head with it :)

Ryzen 4700G has very good latencies as a point of comparison.

AMD Ryzen 7 4700GE desktop APU tests reveal reduced memory latency and great overclocking potential

The Aida Cache and Memory benchmarks show that the Ryzen 7 4700GE desktop APU can easily be coupled with DDR4 RAM modules running at 4333 MHz. The resulting memory latency is lower than 50 ns, which is quite the improvement over the 60 ns average latency of the Ryzen 3000 desktop APUs.

www.notebookcheck.net

AMD Ryzen 7 4700G Flagship Renoir 8 Core Desktop APU Benchmarked, Matches The Ryzen 7 3800X 95W CPU

The first performance benchmarks of the AMD Ryzen 7 4700G APU which is also the flagship of the Renoir lineup have leaked out.

wccftech.com

I saw this recent benchmark of the 4700g. I think these performances are absolutely crazy, as are their laptop equivalents, to be able to match the already very good 3800x with 65w instead of 95w. Is there information whether the next gen CPU are based on 4000 and their TDP (maybe this has already been discusses)?

BreakAtmo · Jul 5, 2020

anexanhume said:
There hasn't been an end use that has called for it yet. This BW could be achieved by a single stack of undervolted HBM though.

I would think that something like the Ryzen 7 4800U would greatly benefit from HBM - it has GPU power on par with PS4 and much better CPU power, but is saddled with DDR4 and LPDDR4X that apparently only go to around 60GB/s in low-power devices. My dream portable would be a Windows device like the GPD Win Max, but with a hypothetical Ryzen 7 5800U and 16GB of HBM doing 200GB/s (and stuff like a VRR screen and gyro sensor).

anexanhume · Jul 5, 2020

Abdel said:
AMD Ryzen 7 4700G Flagship Renoir 8 Core Desktop APU Benchmarked, Matches The Ryzen 7 3800X 95W CPU

The first performance benchmarks of the AMD Ryzen 7 4700G APU which is also the flagship of the Renoir lineup have leaked out.

wccftech.com

I saw this recent benchmark of the 4700g. I think these performances are absolutely crazy, as are their laptop equivalents, to be able to match the already very good 3800x with 65w instead of 95w. Is there information whether the next gen CPU are based on 4000 and their TDP (maybe this has already been discusses)?

Mobile 4000 is Zen 2. So yes, most likely the most comparable to consoles.

Kyoufu · Jul 5, 2020

What uncertainty does Tom Warren mean here and do developers really have to code against it? Anyone mind explaining?

I was under the impression that PS5 was designed to be "easy" for developers to squeeze out as much performance as they can?

•79• · Jul 5, 2020

So Tom Warren is not to be questioned?

Miniature Kaiju · Jul 5, 2020

Kyoufu said:
What uncertainty does Tom Warren mean here and do developers really have to code against it? Anyone mind explaining?

I was under the impression that PS5 was designed to be "easy" for developers to squeeze out as much performance as they can?

There's no uncertainty, they're coding against a deterministic model of the APU. It's explicitly explained so by Cerny in the video. Tom is just either clueless at best or being disingenuous.

anexanhume · Jul 5, 2020

Kyoufu said:
What uncertainty does Tom Warren mean here and do developers really have to code against it? Anyone mind explaining?

I was under the impression that PS5 was designed to be "easy" for developers to squeeze out as much performance as they can?

The kind that comes between Fear and Doubt.

———————————

Y'all remember this little thing?

#TeamHBM

2ojQIK3ossf-mPZo_xvoRlx9Z4or47cKCovPRm0hvnYT5nJLnxO4aVmk_SRhKkbUucJ_6R3BqDZsOIXtapqwhEhh0s1Ef0oP4StBvIorgsgGRoLErb8VmjSczQadsjkMdsPhwZL-jOtsGP7Vk5wHGgXVATAakhbwve93DGVL22c;jsessionid=5AA98CA97D202369F9CB7CC987F49DA4

Hey Please · Jul 5, 2020

Kyoufu said:
What uncertainty does Tom Warren mean here and do developers really have to code against it? Anyone mind explaining?

I was under the impression that PS5 was designed to be "easy" for developers to squeeze out as much performance as they can?

Wait, IIRC there were reports that PS5 was the easiest PS console to develop for thus far (Mr. Cerny's Road to PS5 mentioned PS5 having the shortest time to triangle- of course that alone is not indicative of overall ease of development or otherwise).

Furthermore, isn't the APU's design supposed to deterministic? So, performance analysis tools will function the exact same way (to ascertain a game's performance) on PS5 as it does with PS4.

Kyoufu · Jul 5, 2020

Hey Please said:
Wait, IIRC there were reports that PS5 was the easiest PS console to develop for thus far (Mr. Cerny's Road to PS5 mentioned PS5 having the shortest time to triangle- of course that alone is not indicative of overall ease of development or otherwise).

Furthermore, isn't the APU's design supposed to deterministic? So, performance analysis tools will function the exact same way (to ascertain a game's performance) on PS5 as it does with PS4.

Yeah, that's what I thought too. 🤷‍♂️

PlayStation 5 Pre-Release Technical Discussion |OT|

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