Forgive my ignorance what is the percentage for the PS4. I just bought one last year and I was kind of surprised when I popped in some of my PS3 games and I was hit with an unsupported disc message.
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PS4 doesn't support PS3 games because of that systems complicated architecture. There are ps2 games you can buy on the ps store though. But the system doesn't support any form of physical BC.
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Also most of the consoles you listed have identical or compatible architectures, whereas Microsoft's console all had completely different architecture from their predecessor (apart from XSX, which has enhancements on top of 100% compatibility). The difficulty is on an entirely different level, so much that it's completely absent on the competitors.
PS4 - 0%
Nintendo Switch - 0%
PS5 - ?% with GPU hamstrung to 36 CUs
Xbox (original) - Pentium III + NV20
Xbox 360 - Customized PowerPC + AMD TeraScale
Xbox One - AMD Jaguar + AMD GCN
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Going by some of his other videos, he knows what he's talking about. And honestly, if Insomniac hadn't specifically pointed out that Clank had raytracing would it have been immediately noticeable to most users? As Cerno pointed out in a few sections, Clank very specifically does not reflect much of the environment around him. I'm not shitting on the game. Both the console and the new R&C game is day 1 for me, but let's not pretend that this is a huge step up in raytracing.
I'd go one step further and say you could write 100+ gigs a day (remember this is writing new data, not reading the data that's already on the disc) and still not really affect the SSD's lifespan before you needed to upgrade the console. I'll copy a post here I made a little while back to put some of the numbers in context.
Days gone is one of those games that get better looking as you play through the campaign. The snowstorms are my favorite.
And yeah its 4kcb is fine. Tlou2 is 1440p and i swear it looks better than those demon sits screenshots.
Microsoft has not confirmed 100% compatibility on the XSX. It may have it, but they'd never do that - those kinds of absolute statements are lawsuit bait.
Liabe already prefaced their list with "BC consoles". And as for the bolded, stop posting this crap. The PS5 GPU having 36CUs was not forced due to BC, it was a result of Cerny's narrow/fast design based on both the advantages of fast clocks and the need to include plenty of custom silicon on the die that removes SSD bottlenecks. We already know that extra CUs can simply be turned off, because the Pro and the PS5 both do that already.
We'll see.
Do you think the I/O complex as a whole will be larger than 1 Dual CU? Or do you think consuming almost twice as much energy is worth the trade off? (Sony's engineers definitely thought so though, for whatever reason.)
Oh yeah that, then from a hardware aspect, BC was not really achievable on those Xboxes without going the extra miles, so they really should be compared with 0% consoles instead.
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So, are you thinking that Sony had certain die size limit based on their desired price target and worked within those restrictions? I'm curious if Cerny's decision to push for higher clicks was more of a "lucky" side affect of their research in to their cooling and power delivery scheme? It still blows my mind that AMD's Smart Shift technology has been brought in as a foundational feature in a console!
Saving the entire RAM state seems incredibly inefficient, especially when all those assets are already sitting on the SSD anyway. The reason games are kept in RAM currently is because it takes to so long to load from disc. Since we no longer have that bottleneck you can actually do away with that idea. Instead of storing the textures models sounds etc that are in ram you can simply store data which points to where they are already on the SSD.
MS simply seem to be dumping a copy of the RAM to the SSD and then pulling that which seems really wasteful.
If the game supports save anywhere feature, like save your inventory, location, world state etc on the spot, that game will obviously not need a full RAM dump. I'm guessing all next-gen games will support that. You may not be able to deliberately save anywhere for gameplay/difficulty/design reasons, but it should support it at system level just for suspend/resume feature. That way you'll need a fraction of a space on the SSD.
Well any console has those sorts of die size limits. Right now all we know is that there's a bunch of extra stuff on that die offering something different to the usual processors, and I'm looking forward to seeing how much it adds. And yeah, the SmartShift should be interesting given how the power swapping can apparently be done several hundred times a second.
I'm curious how a developer would even optimize around SmartShift, or if they really would need to at all? The one thing I am curious about is why Sony didn't decide on a similar solution with the CPU and SMT like Microsoft did with the Series X? Microsoft lets the developer turn off SMT to allow for higher CPU clocks. I'm surprised that Sony wouldn't have something similar, or even allow the CPU to clock higher in cases where it requires more power than the GPU.
None of these consoles had to deal with what the X1 BC team had to deal with, most of them had literally the old hardware inside the new hardware (PS2 and PS3 for instance) or was based on the same architecture. In all of them BC was part of the design phase, not an afterthought after the console had already launched.
Both you and Lady Gaia are technical people, you know how challenging BC on X1 was when you look at all the given parameters. In addition, it's not even just a tech challenge, every 360 game can be repacked as an X1 game, but it needs the publishers to authorize it, it's a legal cluster-F on top of the technical challenge. Considering PS4 has zero BC and Switch had zero BC, yeah, they are in a very good position. They are the most experienced BC team right now and they already announced awesome features for their next BC project while the competition is silent. The way they keep talking about BC while Sony is stuttering with an unclear message and considering there is a good chance PS5 has 36 CUs because of their BC limitation while MS was free because of the work their BC team has achieved, says a lot about the subject and how important MS's BC team is.
What you are saying is that you don't really care that it's probably the biggest OS feature endeavor any company has taken upon itself this gen, just that X% of games are supported instead of 100%. I guess we will have to wait for the PS5's launch to hear your opinion on supporting X% of games on your console. I know that I don't feel the confidence that my pretty big PS4 library which I've never played (I don't own a PS4) will be 100% playable on my launch day PS5. That was my plan, I thought I would buy a Pro and in the end, I never bought one, so the PS5 is going to be my PS4. Will TLG my copy work on PS5 day 1 now that team ICOis dead? I don't know, and it's one of my the top 5 PS4 games that I want to play.
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There is real BC on PS5 just like there is real BC on X1 and XSX. But we don't how many games and which games will be available on launch day. According to Sony, most of the top 100 played games will be BC at launch which means some of the top 100 played PS4 games won't be there at launch. We will have to wait and see the numbers and the nuance of which game is available or not. For instance, if TLG isn't available at launch, I'll be extremely disappointed because that was the first game I want to play on my PS5 but if Diablo 3 doesn't work until 2022 I don't really care much. I guess it's individual to each one of us.
Sony doesn't use software for BC, they have the BC "baked" into the hardware.
There is an PS4/PS4pro legacy mode, that mode is not software related, it simulates per hardware a PS4/PS4pro.
The console lead designer said during the tech dive:
"... The BC is in the hardware, no additional hardware needed, no one can take it away like it happened with the PS3. ..."
"... we said to AMD BC has to be a goal of the new hardware, and together we worked hard for that. ... "
The top 100 you are talking about will run with "PS5 boost", with maybe higher frame rates. Maybe some games even need a patch for that.
I don't want to start a discussion on that, because i believe my understanding in that case.
Cerny wasn't talking about most of the top 100 games working in boost mode, he talked about most of the top 100 games working on PS5.
Well, if that's what he meant, saying that most of the top 100 games will be playable on launch day is a very poor choice of words and the PS blog that came later and its' update is poorly phrased as well. What Sony had said up until now doesn't imply in any way that 100% of PS4 games will run on PS5 on launch day, if that's true, that's some bad messaging.
Well, i will give one last reply to that matter...
I think Sony is really bad with finding clear words at the moment, even their marketing plan is somewhat lacking.
There is no way that Sony and AMD worked on a hardware based BC for 100+ games, while sony wants to have "the fastest generation transition ever" for their 100mil+ console users.
Well, a blog post with a single sentence saying "all PS4 games will work on PS5 from day one" could have solved it. Instead, everything is so weirdly phrased and cagy.
I mean, how can anyone read this and understand "100% full BC at launch"?
PS4 backwards compatibility is on the chip tho there's no way it will work 100% of the time due to reasons
There's also Boost Mode which is like PS4 Pro boost mode
the nikka put up a graphic saying such as the PS4 BC on the chip and this was months ago. he talked about it in the same breathe he explained the old BC PS3 had
Cerny was very clear and so was the PS Blog after. The only people confused are bad faith posters.
It's called covering their asses. MS is doing the exact same thing.
First off it is user replaceable. More importantly though, even with the standard consumer ~8% or so reserve, I've never really heard of people killing SSDs due to exhausting write cycles. It's a huge bit of FUD spread by people trying to excuse why they had HDDs IMO. I have SSDs that are nearly a decade old now that still have >60% write cycles according to their SMART data and I'm a fairly heavy user by consumer standards (far from some enterprise/datacenter workloads though).
Well you can't claim that with 100% certainty unless you have a PS4 inside the PS5 really.
Because PS5 instead will do it with the PS5 hardware, to claim that all PS4 games will work you have to have all the PS4 games tested on PS5 and that'll probably take some time. If the BC is working correctly, most if not all games probably will run alright, but still you have to account for the hardware difference. They're just covering their asses indeed lol
You have no proof of this. The most simple explanation is often the truth. 36 CUs GPU make the APU smaller and the cost smaller too.
I disagree that Cerny was clear. He absolutely wasn't, which is how this confusion sprang up in the first place.
That PS Blog absolutely did remove all doubt though.
Well, I've been talking about how Sony is doing their BC on PS5 since early 2019 from patients and hardware clock leaks, so there is nothing new about what Cerny had said which was a reassurance that they won't back up from BC as they did on PS3 because this time it doesn't required a separate chip which adds to the costs, it's just part of the APU.
Saying that most top 100 games will work is covering their asses? That's not how you phrase a fully day-one BC system, if you have full BC you say "all of the top 100 games will work day one", not most of them. Covering your ass is saying that most of the PS4 titles will work. it's either their messaging is failing, or a lot of games won't work in BC on launch day. If Sony had said at some point that almost all BC titles will work on PS5 on day one, I haven't heard about it and I consider myself a pretty well-versed person in gaming, hardware, and next-gen news, so I wonder how many people actually heard that.
Well, I guess we will see if it was my bad in just a few short months. And I hope I'm totally wrong because I really want TLG to work day-one on my launch PS5.
This was my understanding too. Dan at Gigaboots also did a video on this that agrees. Either Sony have got themselves into a pickle here or they are going OTT with ass covering for whatever reasons.
If it really is the case they/AMD spent years of effort to integrate PS4 logic into the APU only to then have to spend hundreds of man years testing and patching for the same PS4 games (not just for PS5 boost) seems ridiculous to me and would rather go without BC and that effort and resources placed elsewhere.
There is no 100% BC ever...
PS1 games on PS2
PS1/PS2 games on PS3(1st release)
Xbox games on Xbox360
Xbox/xbox360 games on Xbox one
and there won't be 100% BC on PS5 and Xbox series...
maybe it will be 97%
PS1 games on PS2
PS1/PS2 games on PS3(1st release)
Xbox games on Xbox360
Xbox/xbox360 games on Xbox one
and there won't be 100% BC on PS5 and Xbox series...
maybe it will be 97%
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First he talked about PS4 and PS4 PRO legacy modes being backed into the hardware, after that he talked about the boost mode and having tested the 100 most popular titles on that setting. It's clear as day. But I'm not surprised you disagree.
I would actually say that the most simple explanation is that it has to be 36 CUs for BC, because it fits every piece of information we have. We know the PS5 has to match the ps4 CU count for BC, we know it's extremely hard to achieve that on RDNA without going with a 40CU or 60CU die, we know that 36 CU is a weirdly small choice while 2.2Ghz is a weirdly high choice for clocks and we also know that PS5 is huge which means it's not like 36CUs at 2.23Ghz does their cooling envelope any favors. I mean, I doubt anyone thought 36CU at 2.23Ghz is a natural solution, people actually attacked the "Github believers" because "2Ghz just doesn't make sense".
I wouldn't call 36 CUs "just because" the simplest solution, it might have been just a huge coincidence, but IMO it isn't that likely.
You're right, the OOM space seems to be for error correction only, and there may be some bad blocks from the start.
Probably?
Kingston recommends 7% reserve for read-intensive I/O profiles and this already covers having half your drive capacity rewritten daily.
The typical I/O profile of game consoles clearly won't be the same than for servers or even standard PCs.
Sony may decide to go with 1% OP to play it safe, and call it a day.
Nobody would notice (given that you never know how much disk space is 'required' by the OS anyway).
Yeah in the video I link above: 'running PS4 and PS4 [Pro] titles at boosted frequencies has also added complexity'
The bold meaning in addition (to the PS4 legacy modes he was just talking about) is my interpretation.
*if* it turns out Sony are having to do title by title testing/patching for all PS4 games and I can't just put a PS4 disc in a PS5 and it just works at PS4/Pro clocks then Sony won't hear the last of it....
It could be 1%, could be 5%, could also be 9%. Who knows. But full 825GB is unlikely.
This is speculation. 36 CUs is cheaper to manufacture than a 52 CUs or 40 or 44 CUS GPUs. This is a fact...
Off topic first benchmark of an Ampere GPU 31% faster than a 2080 Ti
forum.beyond3d.com
Nvidia Ampere Discussion [2020-05-14]
Are the GDDR6X mentions coming from anyone other than Igor's Lab?
forum.beyond3d.com
Yeah, 20 CUs are also cheaper, that's is also a fact. It doesn't help us much or create an insightful discussion, but it is a fact. It doesn't make 36CU being there without any relation to BC a fact.
And saying 36CUs is cheaper isn't really true, costs are more than just die size, and clocking your GPU at 2.23Ghz hurts yields which make things more expensive. Also having a huge console with a strong cooling solution is more expensive, a lot of things are more expensive when you go 2.23Ghz. That's why there is a balance between clocks and CU count and that's why 36CU @2.23Ghz caught everyone off guard. If costs are the reason, 10.3TF with 44CU at 1830Mhz would have probably much cheaper to make and would have resulted in a smaller system with simpler cooling.
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20 CU wouldn't have been enough for Sony to create a generational leap from the PS4 and PS4 Pro though especially considering what the competition was doing.
36 CU on top of helping with BC, and in combination with their new approach to gpu clock allowed them to create a very competitive piece of hardware. I don't think that they locked in 36 CU ONLY for BC reasons. That would be extremely stupid.
Cant you see how contradicted that is?
Making your GPU 36 cu for the soul porpuse of BC and then it doenst even work? Now that whould be somehting else, not gonna lie.
One of the slides in the Road to PS5 stream:
This and GitHub data with the 2 modes that explicitly linked Oberon to PS5... The exact same cu counts and gpu speeds.
I dont wanna say this but.... Look... those that are regulars in this thread, these types of threads should know this.
This and GitHub data with the 2 modes that explicitly linked Oberon to PS5... The exact same cu counts and gpu speeds.
I dont wanna say this but.... Look... those that are regulars in this thread, these types of threads should know this.
Without hardware-level BC, PS5 wouldn't have had BC at all. And it's not contradictory, Sony did say that they believe thousands of games will be BC on PS5, they just never they will be at launch. That's not a hard thing to do, just tweet "thousands of PS4 games will be playable on PS5 on launch" to your millions of followers and clear your murky messaging.
A little bit unnecessary considering I agree with your overall sentiment that Sony's statement means there's no valid reason for people to keep suggesting otherwise.
I'm just saying I understand where the initial confusion came from.
I really don't think Sony made the system 36CU with the 'sole purpose' of backwards compatibility. Firstly, there's no way they would prioritize that over their competitiveness next gen. Secondly, it's not exactly hard to toggle on/off bits of silicon at runtime with the OS (or virtualize them and hide them from the application).
I doubt it being 36CU has anything at all to do with PS4 compatibility, it's just a coincidence they landed on that number again after doing all of their die size / frequency targets.
I doubt it being 36CU has anything at all to do with PS4 compatibility, it's just a coincidence they landed on that number again after doing all of their die size / frequency targets.
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