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PlayStation 4 Backwards Compatability for PS5 won't be 100% at launch, PS5 too fast for some titles, tweaks and testing on game-by-game basis

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poklane

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kc44135

kc44135

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Oheao said:
It's straight up about priorities/devotion of resources. I guess Sony just determined that BC wasn't as much of a priority as MS did.
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I don't think they have valued older titles for a long time now. I mean, look at the disastrous PS2 on PS4 program, or the equally disastrous PS1 Classic Console (not to mention no PS1 Classics on PS4 at all, making it the only PlayStation Console that can't play them in some form). They haven't bothered much with older titles this gen, and when they did, it was a really poor effort on their part. It doesn't give me much confidence that they will put in the effort to expand PS4 BC, and that's without even bringing up the Jim Ryan stuff ( "why would play those games") etc. They just don't care, and don't think their consumers will care either. Maybe they're right for the majority, I dunno. I just know that I care, and I'm really, really disappointed with them.
 
I Wanna Be The Guy

I Wanna Be The Guy

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Oct 28, 2017
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We deserve this. We should have made a bigger fuss when they removed PS2 backwards compatability from the PS3. When we accepted that we sent a bad message.
 
Vivian-Pogo

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If Sony meant that almost all 100 of the top PS4 games will be playable [IN BOOSTED MODE] at launch, you'd think they'd send out a correction when every news site is reporting this:

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kc44135 said:
I don't think they have valued older titles for a long time now. I mean, look at the disastrous PS2 on PS4 program, or the equally disastrous PS1 Classic Console (not to mention no PS1 Classics on PS4 at all, making it the only PlayStation Console that can't play them in some form). They haven't bothered much with older titles this gen, and when they did, it was a really poor effort on their part. It doesn't give me much confidence that they will put in the effort to expand PS4 BC, and that's without even bringing up the Jim Ryan stuff ( "why would play those games") etc. They just don't care, and don't think their consumers will care either. Maybe they're right for the majority, I dunno. I just know that I care, and I'm really, really disappointed with them.
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I care as well, honestly I'd have loved to be able to play all of my PS1-PS5 games on the PS5, I'd have played the shit out of it! Especially considering I'm mainly nostalgic for the PS1 and PS2.
 
Theswweet

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The read I'm getting is that the way that Sony is handling BC is fundamentally different from MS. MS is doing it in software, whereas Sony is trying to do it in hardware by downclocking. The slide where they showed PS5 Native, PS4 Pro Legacy, and PS4 Legacy are probably performance profiles for the system - most games work with those profiles, but because RDNA2 and Zen 2 *aren't* 1:1 with GCN and Jaguar, there will be some issues with compatibility on some titles.

Nowhere did I get the read that Sony or Cerny were talking about Boost Mode. They never mentioned it as a possibility and they didn't imply it - it sounded like, to me, what I just said - because the hardware isn't quite the same, and will inevitably be faster in some instances even in those compatibility modes, there will be issues in some games that they will have to test for. They've currently tested 100~ and they mostly work, but they can't commit to making sure all of them work at launch, and they'll be testing and adding support for more games over time (read: post-launch).

I'd love to be wrong, but it's a bad look when we can't even be sure we'll be able to play Bloodborne @ 1080p on PS5 when MS is showing HDR/4K OG Xbox games day 1 on Xbox X, along with 100% XB1 compatibility + enhancements.
 
DSP

DSP

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Oct 25, 2017
5,120
Sony only looks bad on BC because of Microsoft, if you actually look at other platforms including outside of gaming, they are perfectly in line.

Look at Switch, it has like zero compatibility.
Look at macOS/iOS, they hit reset every few years. It is up to the developers to update or abandon. Your software could easily not work with the next version of macOS and they won't care much about it.
Look at Android, I guess this is pretty strong but it was really bad in the early years, it took years of investment and development to get to this level of decent compatibility across so many devices.

It is really a Windows thing to maintain maximum compatibility over a very long period of time and that technology is obviously similarly used in Xbox with Directx abstraction so much that people can get games to run on a different operating system with wine etc.

It is really not fair to say Sony should have it because Microsoft does it, or where these resources went. Sony doesn't have a massive operating system business on the side to tap into for the console nor they need to have one.
 
Jade1962

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poklane said:
Did you read what was said in the PlayStation Blog Post? When talking about the 100 most played PS4 games he outright says "we're expecting almost all of them to be playable at launch on PS5", which is implying they will not all be playable.
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Sorry but I'll take the word of the person who designed the system. There is no way they talk about all the effort they put into BC with AMD to point of limiting the console to 36 CUs for only 100 games to be playable.

edit: I will also note the blog is all individual statements/sentences. Some are applying to each other to come to the conclusion that only 100 games are playable but they don't have to be.
 
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Liabe Brave

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Marl said:
Am I going nuts or something? I swear in the video and the blog post, they clearly explain that they have gone to great lengths to ensure the architecture is similar from PS5 to PS4 and that they have tested this on the top 100 games and almost all of them have worked? I don't think this means that they are only intending to have 100 games ready for BC at launch? Please someone correct me if I am wrong.
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I believe you're correct. Here's the actual quote:

Mark Cerny said:
Running PlayStation 4 and PlayStation 4 Pro titles at boosted frequencies has also added complexity. The boost is truly massive this time around and some game code can't handle it. Testing has to be done on a title-by-title basis.
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Note the bolded. Obviously, the case-by-case testing is for functionality under boost. So the question is, does all BC happen under boost? I would strongly suspect not. For one, it's not how they handle things on PS4 Pro. There, Boost Mode is optional for exactly the same reason: some games don't function exactly correctly. As it turned out, the modest clock bump deranges only a tiny sliver of the library, so Boost Mode is pretty much "set it and forget it" on Pro. It seems with the PS5's speed increase Sony would be even more cautious, not less. And second, the slide accompanying this talk had three entries, two "legacy" modes and then the "native" (boosted) one. Why the list, if all BC was only using the boosted mode?

So I think backwards compatibility is being misinterpreted. I would suspect PS5 will play basically all PS4 titles without enhancement, from day one. And then say, 90%+ of them will work and be enhanced in Boost Mode.
 
Evolved1

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What you guys aren't happy with NBA FIFA Madden 2K17/18/19/20? That's a top 100! We have all the CoDs too! You want to play Vagrant Story? Ugh why tho.
 
defaltoption

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Its so freaking crazy to me that we got Microsoft who has been the industry less time and loses every generation fighting to make sure it keeps its supporters happy and Sony out here with bull like this saying "we want to transition people as fast as possible to PS5" like no fucks are given.

Microsoft is literally trying to make every Xbox, Xbox 360, and Xbox One game better by adding HDR for everything and are working to make 4K up-scaling available for all of them. While Sony is testing Fortnite and 2K20 and they might not work.

Its just annoying, I want the PS5 and I want the Xbox Series X because gaming is just a huge part of my life but if I was just an average gamer the choice would be clear, at least with where we are now, who knows what else either still has to reveal and either do well or poorly.
 
Rosol

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I'm fine with 95%+ compatibility of PS4, which is my assumption of where they're at if it's like 80% and lower I won't be happy - though I find that to be very unlikely. Saying "all" is a bold thing to say, and even though MS said it; I'm questioning whether there will be a few titles that don't work right there given the processor change on XsX. I was hoping for them to have some kind of x-enhanced program like microsoft - if they don't end up having that they will just seem really cheap.
 
-Le Monde-

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Evolved1 said:
What you guys aren't happy with NBA FIFA Madden 2K17/18/19/20? That's a top 100! We have all the CoDs too! You want to play Vagrant Story? Ugh why tho.
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I wouldn't be surprised if not a single one(sports games) didn't make the list seeing as those game get yearly releases, making them less of a priority.

I'd be funny if that were the case though, just in a horrible way.
 
Teepo671

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Liabe Brave said:
I believe you're correct. Here's the actual quote:



Note the bolded. Obviously, the case-by-case testing is for functionality under boost. So the question is, does all BC happen under boost? I would strongly suspect not. For one, it's not how they handle things on PS4 Pro. There, Boost Mode is optional for exactly the same reason: some games don't function exactly correctly. As it turned out, the modest clock bump deranges only a tiny sliver of the library, so Boost Mode is pretty much "set it and forget it" on Pro. It seems with the PS5's speed increase Sony would be even more cautious, not less. And second, the slide accompanying this talk had three entries, two "legacy" modes and then the "native" (boosted) one. Why the list, if all BC was only using the boosted mode?

So I think backwards compatibility is being misinterpreted. I would suspect PS5 will play basically all PS4 titles without enhancement, from day one. And then say, 90%+ of them will work and be enhanced in Boost Mode.
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But the blog post says almost 100 playable at launch. Not boosted, just playable. So not even 100 will be playable. cut and paste from the blog -
"Lastly, we're excited to confirm that the backwards compatibility features are working well. We recently took a look at the top 100 PS4 titles as ranked by play time, and we're expecting almost all of them to be playable at launch on PS5."
 
DSP

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Rosol said:
I'm fine with 95%+ compatibility of PS4, which is my assumption of where they're at if it's like 80% and lower I won't be happy - though I find that to be very unlikely. Saying "all" is a bold thing to say, and even though MS said it; I'm questioning whether there will be a few titles that don't work right there given the processor change on XsX. I was hoping for them to have some kind of x-enhanced program like microsoft - if they don't end up having that they will just seem really cheap.
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Top 100 from 4000 games is like 2.5%. For launch at least. They have a long list to work on.
 
Alienhated

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Liabe Brave said:
I believe you're correct. Here's the actual quote:



Note the bolded. Obviously, the case-by-case testing is for functionality under boost. So the question is, does all BC happen under boost? I would strongly suspect not. For one, it's not how they handle things on PS4 Pro. There, Boost Mode is optional for exactly the same reason: some games don't function exactly correctly. As it turned out, the modest clock bump deranges only a tiny sliver of the library, so Boost Mode is pretty much "set it and forget it" on Pro. It seems with the PS5's speed increase Sony would be even more cautious, not less. And second, the slide accompanying this talk had three entries, two "legacy" modes and then the "native" (boosted) one. Why the list, if all BC was only using the boosted mode?

So I think backwards compatibility is being misinterpreted. I would suspect PS5 will play basically all PS4 titles without enhancement, from day one. And then say, 90%+ of them will work and be enhanced in Boost Mode.
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If that would've been the case, they would've said it already.
 
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Faenix1

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I've never been so disappointed.

I went in expecting, at the very least, PS4 BC but now it's literally just partial? And we're suppose to believe they'll continue to test and tweak? They didn't even keep the "PS2 on PS4" thing going long.

The console sounds awesome, but.. man. It's so far from what I was hoping for. MS is basically doing what I wished Sony kept doing in the PS3 days.
 
Sulik2

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This is why you should be running the PS4 as a VM on the PS5 that can abstract the hardware layer. Which is exactly what Microsoft is doing. Sony just doesn't have the software engineering chops for it. It's pretty astounding just how well designed the XSX is looking after the Xbox one disaster. Hungry Microsoft builds amazing consoles.
 
Daebo

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Theswweet said:
The read I'm getting is that the way that Sony is handling BC is fundamentally different from MS. MS is doing it in software, whereas Sony is trying to do it in hardware by downclocking. The slide where they showed PS5 Native, PS4 Pro Legacy, and PS4 Legacy are probably performance profiles for the system - most games work with those profiles, but because RDNA2 and Zen 2 *aren't* 1:1 with GCN and Jaguar, there will be some issues with compatibility on some titles.

Nowhere did I get the read that Sony or Cerny were talking about Boost Mode. They never mentioned it as a possibility and they didn't imply it - it sounded like, to me, what I just said - because the hardware isn't quite the same, and will inevitably be faster in some instances even in those compatibility modes, there will be issues in some games that they will have to test for. They've currently tested 100~ and they mostly work, but they can't commit to making sure all of them work at launch, and they'll be testing and adding support for more games over time (read: post-launch).

I'd love to be wrong, but it's a bad look when we can't even be sure we'll be able to play Bloodborne @ 1080p on PS5 when MS is showing HDR/4K OG Xbox games day 1 on Xbox X, along with 100% XB1 compatibility + enhancements.
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This times a million
 
angel_deamon

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Liabe Brave said:
I believe you're correct. Here's the actual quote:



Note the bolded. Obviously, the case-by-case testing is for functionality under boost. So the question is, does all BC happen under boost? I would strongly suspect not. For one, it's not how they handle things on PS4 Pro. There, Boost Mode is optional for exactly the same reason: some games don't function exactly correctly. As it turned out, the modest clock bump deranges only a tiny sliver of the library, so Boost Mode is pretty much "set it and forget it" on Pro. It seems with the PS5's speed increase Sony would be even more cautious, not less. And second, the slide accompanying this talk had three entries, two "legacy" modes and then the "native" (boosted) one. Why the list, if all BC was only using the boosted mode?

So I think backwards compatibility is being misinterpreted. I would suspect PS5 will play basically all PS4 titles without enhancement, from day one. And then say, 90%+ of them will work and be enhanced in Boost Mode.
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This is from Psblog after Cerny meeting

"Lastly, we're excited to confirm that the backwards compatibility features are working well. We recently took a look at the top 100 PS4 titles as ranked by play time, and we're expecting almost all of them to be playable at launch on PS5. With more than 4000 games published on PS4, we will continue the testing process and expand backwards compatibility coverage over time."
 
Theswweet

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Not to be cynical, but honestly? I'm not sure if Sony deserves the benefit of the doubt here. PS2 on PS4 was a trainwreck - there was the PSTV Whitelist situation, and hell, there was even that twilight period on PS3 where some phat PS3s lacked the emotion engine but supported PS2 software BC (which was spotty, had issues, and only worked for like 70%~ of games). Not to mention PSP/PS1 games on Vita, which have essentially 100% compatibility when the system is hacked. Many of them weren't available even if you owned them - some worked only on a region by region basis, and some you could only get on Vita if you transferred them directly from a PS3 for some asinine reason.

Sony's history with BC has been spotty at *best*, and they've almost never supported true 100% BC for their previous systems. It's completely understandable why folks would assume the worst-case scenario with this situation as Sony has continually dropped the ball with this same thing semi-consistently through the years.
 
flatearthpandas

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People saying it was a given there would be no BC for previous consoles... since when?

People were swearing up and down there would be full BC.

Anyway, more disappointing news.
 
kayos90

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BC for Sony was always a "me too" feature to counter the Xbox. BC will never be a priority for Sony because it prevents them from making more money. Why invest in a team that handles BC when you can at best sell it again with a more definitive version, or at worst spend money on a team that doesn't move copies of video games.
 
angel_deamon

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SONY At least are you already using virtualization so with ps6 does not happen the same?
 
Rosol

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DSP said:
Top 100 from 4000 games is like 2.5%. For launch at least. They have a long list to work on.
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They said they "tested" 100 games, that doesn't necessarily mean 100/4000 work or that's all that's available for BWC they're just saying they only have currently tested 100/4000 and almost all of them work at least how I've taken it. I don't think it's necessary clear either way . Has there been any clarification on this? - it certainly seems like they need to.
 
riotous

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flatearthpandas said:
People saying it was a given there would be no BC for previous consoles... since when?

People were swearing up and down there would be full BC.

Anyway, more disappointing news.
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"Full BC" was definitely never happening for PS3 and likely even Ps1-2.

I've certainly been saying for months any rumor claiming full BC for all gens was immediately labeling the person a fake.
 
riotous

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Rosol said:
They said they "tested" 100 games, that doesn't necessarily mean 100/4000 work or that's all that's available for BWC they're just saying they only have currently tested 100/4000 and almost all of them work at least how I've taken it. I don't think it's necessary clear either way . Has there been any clarification on this? - it certainly seems like they need to.
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They said they expect most of that 100 to work by launch.

They might beat their expectation but they are setting expectations pretty low; that expectation being "most of 100."
 
Tigress

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It's not a deal killer. But this time it was a reason I was buying day one. I have a pc now so I don't need the new consoles to get most games so I was originally going to forego buying a ps5 until at least horizon zero dawn 2 or enough exclusives convince me. But my PS4 is driving me nuts and really slow on the dashboard and using it for things like Netflix so since ps5 was backwards compatible I was going to go ahead and get it to replace my PS4. So I'd like to see the list of games it can play to make sure any it cannot are ones I'm fine with maybe losing (if they never get around to it).
 
mute

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How the hell did they manage to not make even my minimum expectations. PS4 was the low bar for pete's sake.
 
kc44135

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DSP said:
Sony only looks bad on BC because of Microsoft, if you actually look at other platforms including outside of gaming, they are perfectly in line.

Look at Switch, it has like zero compatibility.
Look at macOS/iOS, they hit reset every few years. It is up to the developers to update or abandon. Your software could easily not work with the next version of macOS and they won't care much about it.
Look at Android, I guess this is pretty strong but it was really bad in the early years, it took years of investment and development to get to this level of decent compatibility across so many devices.


It is really a Windows thing to maintain maximum compatibility over a very long period of time and that technology is obviously similarly used in Xbox with Directx abstraction so much that people can get games to run on a different operating system with wine etc.

It is really not fair to say Sony should have it because Microsoft does it, or where these resources went. Sony doesn't have a massive operating system business on the side to tap into for the console nor they need to have one.
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Why does it matter that those other platforms don't have BC (I care myself, especially with Switch, but that's besides the point)? None of them compete with PS5 man, Xbox does. It absolutely does matter that Xbox has a better implementation of this feature than Sony, they are direct competitors. By that same token, I think it is completely fair to compare them, just like it's fair to say Sony has better exclusives than MS. But Sony is failing on the BC front, and failing hard, and it should be fair to criticize that, especially when the direct competition is doing so much better by comparison.
 
jaymzi

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Jul 22, 2019
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So a PS4 game will only work on a PS5 if it has been tested and approved by Sony?

Am I unable to insert a PS4 disc for an untested game and see for myself?
 
whytemyke

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What would have been really cool is if they did what Nintendo did with the Switch and make all their PS1 games available for a small cost. Play the original Metal Gear Solid or FF9 for a few bucks a year, then you don't have to worry about your system reading the discs.

(It bears noting that I also know nothing about programming lol)
 

Nerokis

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Oct 25, 2017
5,561
this is genuinely disappointing; one of the things that so thrilled me reading the initial Wired article was Cerny's promise of backwards compatibility, and this is definitely a much lesser version of that than I was expecting, much less hoping

it'll surely still have some bright spots, like being able to play a possibly (seeing mixed reports on the boost thing?) improved version of my copy of Bloodborne, but damn

not being able to access the digital library I had accumulated on the PS3 on my PS4 was a constant source of frustration for me, and it seems like Xbox is going to continue running laps around Sony in this area
 
Luckett_X

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Feels like they had a chance to make the PS5 a great anniversary of the brand and go for a full house of PS1-4 B/C, but instead they're choosing to flub it.

Ultra SSD's and 10+flops can't pave over the fact their portable systems from 15 years ago ran PS1 games while the PS5 will be incapable of doing so because the OS team is shit and I guess hugely underfunded.

I guess another shoe could drop to fill in the rest of that curiously squished B/C graphic, but the PS4 being a very lacking OS the entire gen through makes me think not.
 
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