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Zelas

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,020
I just always find it hilarious, as if Souls is some ultra head exception to the rule, when extremely difficult games, many much more punishing than Souls, have had difficulty options for decades. They did not lose their shine or mystique. People still enjoy them. You can credit feed through SHMUPs nowadays and yet that doesn't change the difficulty of them or their status.

From Software doesn't have to add the option. But let's not pretend it's for a reason other than them not wanting to do it. It doesn't make the games special, or magic. You're not special for beating Souls... like millions of other people.
Its not an exception. The rule is devs should present the vision they want and you take it or leave it. From is doing exactly that.

Options don't change the game.
Is it wrong for a developer to spend years crafting an certain experience and then not want to undermine it? They're not allowed to have that choice?
 

Androidsleeps

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,595
I do agree that the "normal" difficulty in TLOU2 was basically easy mode, combat wasn't that easy but the survival part with all the items you get definitely affects how you play. Made me wish I switched to hard but I get it, most games will have difficulty settings. But your point makes more sense when you look at other RPGs with difficulty settings, "Normal" difficulty is a joke with games like The Outer Worlds and Cyberpunk imo and they shouldn't have a difficulty in the first place.
 

Radec

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,406
Having options that players can decide which is best for them is bad the thread.
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,662
Its not an exception. The rule is devs should present the vision they want and you take it or leave it. From is doing exactly that.


Is it wrong for a developer to spend years crafting an certain experience and then not want to undermine it? They're not allowed to have that choice?
They can present the vision they want, and we can call said vision ableist.
 

Viale

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,616
Well, this is gonna be really unpopular but it's an honest opinion with no ill or elitism intent. I have been playing The Last of Us Part II for the past week and as usual i always start a new game i'm unfamiliar at the default difficulty setting, which always bothers me when it isn't called "normal" because i want to know what the intended experience is, they went for Moderate in this one.

As game the goes by, doesn't take long to realize that the Moderate setting is too fucking easy, but i still persist for some time before changing it to Hard. Hard felt as the "normal" setting, it was still pretty forgiving with Ellie getting away with a lot of bullshit. Finally, i put in Survival, the hardest option you can change mid game i suppose because i didn't see Grounded on the menu, and for the first time the game started making sense.

What Naughty Dog achieved in terms of writing, voice acting, animations and everything else to make you immersed in this world and story is unprecedented in the media, but the dissonance between the intensity of the narrative and the easier difficulty settings puts everything at risk, how can you buy Ellie's emotions and struggles when she's a superhero who can take bullets, arrows and whatever else? Going full Lara Croft mode in this game ruins its tone and makes it a significantly inferior experience.

At some point i thought Souls games should have an easy mode, but this game made me change my mind, people judge what they play and the developer should not provide an inferior experience because gamers think they want one, and this has nothing to do with accessibility, which i'm all for and TLoU 2 should be applauded for the excepcional effort in this area.

TL;DR: Started the game at the moderate setting which was too easy and ruined the tone of the game.

... Cool? I played it on normal and still had a rough time and got the "tone" of the game. It's like options only really benefit the game and the playerbase who plays them.

If anything, there should be a ton more difficulty settings in games
 

s y

Member
Nov 8, 2017
10,431
It would make them more money and get them more awards and recognition. So many people here say Bloodborne was "robbed". Maybe if way more people could play it, it wouldn't have been.

Give options.
hmmm I disagree. I don't care whether or not from includes normal difficulty options in their games but I disagree with the idea that they would receive more recognition if they add them when the entire success of their soulsborne games is born from that niche word of mouth around it's inaccessibility and difficulty which blossomed into massive success and critical acclaim.

Hell,arguably their most inaccessible title, Sekiro, actually won the TGA/VGA award.
 

take_marsh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,267
TLOU2 accessibility setting should be near-standard across all video games.

Options don't hurt though. It sounds like you'd also prefer TLOU2 not have any mode but what you're now playing on, that provides that "real immersion" into "Ellie's experience." It's still a video game.

the developer should not provide an inferior experience because gamers think they want one

This elitist bit, you can agressively shove.
 

Eeyore

User requested ban
Banned
Dec 13, 2019
9,029
I'm not deciding anything, i'm giving an opinion and you're welcome to disagree.

Saying it shouldn't have an easy mode is advocating a position that decides for everyone else. As opposed to just upping the difficulty.

This comes up a lot, it comes from Souls elitism, as if the people that play Souls, or the way the game is designed would be compromised if enemies had more or less health or hit harder. But the really interesting thing is, Souls games already have done this. It's called NG+. So the argument just doesn't hold up anyway.

Souls games aren't special. In fact, I'd wager that the level design in something like The Last of Us Part II rivals Souls games. It's just as intense and hard AND you can tailor your experience to make it just that to that extent. Whereas there is no such way in Souls games to do so without summoning which runs into a whole host of other issues.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
Just play it on Hard or the hardest setting you can from the start. Your mistake was playing it at default, at least given your gaming history.

The general rule I find with AAA action adventure titles is that "Normal" is pretty much always "Easy" for enthusiast or experienced gamers, and that Normal is labelled as much more as a descriptor for the casual crowd, or those who aren't as seriously versed in the genre.
 

Dolce

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,251
Its not an exception. The rule is devs should present the vision they want and you take it or leave it. From is doing exactly that.

Criticism is inherent to artistic mediums. If video games are above criticism, then they have no right to ever consider themselves art.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,566
To make it even more realistic since Ellie isn't a super-human, every save needs permadeath.
 

Scottoest

Member
Feb 4, 2020
11,348
Games should be as easy or difficult, and provide as many choices to that effect, as the creators want. And that should really be the end of the discussion.

If someone wants to make an impossibly difficult game, then that's their choice, just as it's yours not to play it.
 

DigitalT

Member
Oct 27, 2017
326
Difficulty options directly effect accessibility so to say you want a game to have less difficulty options is to say you want it to be less accessible, which I fundamentally disagree with.
 

Rats

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,112
You had a good time playing one of the most accessible AAA games on the hardest setting, and that's an argument against easy modes?

Sure.
 
Oct 29, 2017
956
😂😂😂 it's wild that you are someone who literally used options to tailor a game to your liking and afterwards instead of thinking " man I wish all ppl had this ability to do this with all games" you thought selfishly " man I'm glad ppl can't do this in souls games. Fuck them."
low key hilarious
 

Eeyore

User requested ban
Banned
Dec 13, 2019
9,029
hmmm I disagree. I don't care whether or not from includes normal difficulty options in their games but I disagree with the idea that they would receive more recognition if they add them when the entire success of their soulsborne games is born from that niche word of mouth around it's inaccessibility and difficulty.

The idea that Soulsborne games are praised simply from inaccessibility and difficulty is false. There are many other reasons. There is level design. There are variety of builds. There is enemy design. Etc Etc.

Yes at launch, Demon's Souls had a cult following trying to figure out the mess that was its systems, but I'd say its systems were to its own detriment anyway.
 

JaseC64

Enlightened
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,008
Strong Island NY
Spoilers below...but yes I wouldnt play it othert than Survival. There are times you def need to think about crafting a med kit or moltov like your life depends on it.

The sniper level where you as Abby have to avoid getting shot and reach the perpetrator...on Survival mode. A little frustrating but I wouldn't play this mode on anything but survival. This part was so insane.

There is a "one life" mode which i wouldnt play lol. I died a lot and anything can go wrong at any time. Survival for me was perfect.
 

Min

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,072
I found a lot of combat scenarios in The Last of Us II, even on survivor, can be played by staying in a corner of a house/building, booby trapping the house, and just waiting for enemies to come to you to be picked off by lead pipes or fisticuffs.
 

s y

Member
Nov 8, 2017
10,431
The idea that Soulsborne games are praised simply from inaccessibility and difficulty is false. There are many other reasons. There is level design. There are variety of builds. There is enemy design. Etc Etc.

Yes at launch, Demon's Souls had a cult following trying to figure out the mess that was its systems, but I'd say its systems were to its own detriment anyway.
I didn't mean to say that the difficulty/inaccessibility of those games is the sole reason for their success bad wording on my part. but when Demon's Souls came out, that's what people couldn't shut up about, and the success of that game birthed the rest of the games is probably what I should have said.

From definitely leans into it with their marketing and "prepare to die' editions etc.
 

-Le Monde-

Avenger
Dec 8, 2017
12,613
It would make them more money and get them more awards and recognition. So many people here say Bloodborne was "robbed". Maybe if way more people could play it, it wouldn't have been.

Give options.
You're absolutely right. I've enjoyed the Souls series so far, but there have been moments that I would've tone things down a bit.
I actually held off on Sekiro because of the punishing reputation.
 

Fanuilos

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
4,132
Na, options are a good thing and while I have come to appreciate Soulsborne games recently I don't think more options in them would hurt. There's more to those games than just the difficulty, and frankly it's a shame more people don't get to see the bonkers shit in them.
 

Dolce

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,251
Sure, except an art critic is unlikely to suggest what the artist should've painted instead. They would assess it as what it is.

Criticism as it relates to culture and society are very, very, very much a part of any artistic criticism. Given that games are designed to be played, there is value in how that relates to players and who it locks out of accessibility.
 
OP
OP
brenobnfm

brenobnfm

Member
Sep 28, 2019
1,674
Just play it on Hard or the hardest setting you can from the start. Your mistake was playing it at default, at least given your gaming history.

The general rule I find with AAA action adventure titles is that "Normal" is pretty much always "Easy" for enthusiast or experienced gamers, and that Normal is labelled as much more as a descriptor for the casual crowd, or those who aren't as seriously versed in the genre.

I find most hard modes in games not well balanced or rewarding, just more time wasting.
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,662
hmmm I disagree. I don't care whether or not from includes normal difficulty options in their games but I disagree with the idea that they would receive more recognition if they add them when the entire success of their soulsborne games is born from that niche word of mouth around it's inaccessibility and difficulty which blossomed into massive success and critical acclaim.

Hell,arguably their most inaccessible title, Sekiro, actually won the TGA/VGA award.
If a game only gets acclaimed purely for being inaccessible, it deserves no goty awards that people say it did.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,706
One of the most popular arguments I've seen against adjustable difficulty of Souls games is that if people were allowed to select an easier difficulty, they would all do so, even if it ruined the game for them.

Ironically, OP disproves this by willingly subjecting themselves to a harder difficulty because it's what created a better experience for them.
 

Stoney Mason

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,920
More accessibility is always a good thing. It's never a bad thing. And people who argue its a bad thing are weird.
 

s y

Member
Nov 8, 2017
10,431
If a game only gets acclaimed purely for being inaccessible, it deserves no goty awards that people say it did.
Maybe I worded it wrong but that's not what I meant to say at all.

I was talking about your point about more options leading to more acclaim/success for their titles when their titles are already super successful despite all that and arguably their most difficult/limiting title, reached the highest height as far as critical acclaim.
 

Kadey

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,672
Southeastern PA
Accessibility and options are always good. There are people out there who just wants to enjoy the story or don't have the time or patience to invest in getting better. Everybody should enjoy games the way they want. TLOUII is one of the best games out there not just because of the story, visuals, etc but because it is quite literally the most accessible game as of this moment.
 
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